Illuminating masons

hey patronas go back and look at what they told you. now ask yourself how can i prove that these answers are true? well you could go crossreferencing all over the internet, but what prevents those references from giving false info? they simply gave you answers that sound good and logical, but didnt really7 help you all that much. don't you just have more questions now? thats how they do it. to know one ask one... and they will talk for 3 hours and not really tell you anything.

Well, that's true of everything, if somebody tells you he goes to some school, you can choose to trust them or not, the fact remains, your right, i still don't know anything but i got an inside into their perspective, and all the stuff non masons say can or cannot be true either...so we are basicly back at the start, worse yet, we never left it.

Just don't point fingers at something you don't really know, i don't know you, i could say you are an agent or something to bash masons because they actually try and prevent the illuminati or something from taking over, that is not true, but i could say it.
Thats kinda the same thing with the masons, we don't know whats going on, nothing to do but wait it out

I think discussions here on ATS would get a lot further if we all realized that nothing can be proven on an internet discussion forum. We are all sitting typing into our computers and disembodied opinions are coming back at us. I can't even prove that ATS exists, and they my computer itself is generating all the posts and replies to my input. Perhaps Nygdan lives just to the left of my RAM module

ATS, therefore, cannot be about PROVING anything, It can't be. But what it can do (and does) is provide a forum for discussion, whereby different viewpoints can be thrown into the melting pot and booted around a little. The full range of input, from alleged personal experiences right through to seriously credible circumstantial evidence, is being continuously evaluated by the readership who must be pretty smart and inquisitive to be here in the first place. I would imagine for every participant in a thread there are another 10 to 25 non-participants reading and enjoying the ebb and flow. Those people will make their own mind up and no-one here will be any the wiser.

IMO ATS is far more influential than it at first appears.

Originally posted by Patronas
1. why did any of you join, and how, i dont mean rituals, but like because of somebody or something, you know.

My primary reason for joining stems from my interest in the Kabalah and mysticism, and I consider Masonry to be a Kabalistic philosophical society. Before becoming a Mason, I was already a member of another Kabalistic society called Builders of the Adytum: "Morals and Dogma" by Albert Pike is recommended reading in B.O.T.A., and after having read it, walked away very impressed with what I found there, and decided to sign up.

2. could it be pausible that a form of illuminati still exsists in masonry?

The Illuminati didn't actually exist within Masonry, although many members of the Illuminati were also Masons. Famous examples of men who were both Masons and Illuminati were Adam Weishaupt, Adolf Von Knigge, Johannes Von Goethe, Wolfgagng Amadeus Mozart, and Comte de St. Germaine.

Let me here say that I'm speaking about the actual historical Illuminati, not the "Illuminati" invented by conspiracy theorists. The real Illuminati were the good guys, but were demonized and scapegoated by their opponents, most notably the Church officials who were threatened by the Illuminati's demand to separate church and state in Bavaria.

3. coul it be posible you do not know of a form of evil inside masonry?

Any organization is only as strong or as weak as its members. Masonry is a fraternal order whose teachings are good, and benefit mankind. Obviously, such teachings are worthless unless they are actually put into practice by its disciples, which is the same with any branch of ethics and philosophy.

4. could it be that some other cult uses the name freemasonry and THOSE are the ones that are evil??

Yes. In fact, this happened several times in history, and even more modern times. The P2 Lodge in Italy and the Black Supremacist Lodge of Yahweh Ben Yahweh are examples.

5. The symbols you use, what do they mean??

Unfortunately, there's not a perfectly straightforward answer because Masonic scholars sometimes disagree on what certain symbols mean. However, many different opinions can be read in the many Masonic books that are available.

6. the symbols, could they have been addopted or formed out of another evil society like illuminati??

I consider the Illuminati to have been good, not evil. If I had been an 18th century Bavarian, I would have sympathized with their cause, and probably would have signed up. Nevertheless, Masonry has had its symbols long before the Illuminati was founded. It is true, however, that the Illuminati borrowed some symbols from Masonry, and eventually began conferring the Blue Lodge degrees on its candidates as the Illuminati's 4th, 5th, and 6th degrees.

7. hexrain1 says his friend got mollested in freemasonry, somebody posted that this could not be and that the ones would be kicked out of masonry, witch brings me back to the first couple of questions, cause it could verry well be, and him saying so could be as good a word that i take of your word, so please answer that

The problem is that it's impossible to substantiate or deny an anonymous claim or charge made on the Internet. I do not know if hexrain is telling the truth, or, if so, if his friend was telling him the truth. What I do know is that sometimes child molesters seek to get jobs where they can be close to children, and Masonic-funded homes are no different than those funded by other organizations.

8. why are the symbols used in your society so often found on other stuff??

You'd have to ask the folks who used them on other stuff.

Actually, a great many symbols used in Masonry were derived from other sources. In most cases, the symbols when used by non-Masons didn't come from Masonry. Instead, Masonry and the non-Masons simply derived them from common sources. The All Seeing Eye is a perfect example.

9. hexrain made me wonder about one thing, do you actually know more of this world then us?

What one knows of the world comes from serious study, understanding and insight. It has nothing to do with joining fraternal organizations. Nevertheless, Masonry frequently inculcates the need for such study, which reinforces and motivates some to do so, whereas originally they might have not.

10. Why are masons almost always subject to evil...ehm...no i mean, why are people always comparing you to evil things(ow god, i dont know how to put this) Why do people always compare masonry to evil things??, also a question i love to be answered by hexrain, if you still want to that is.

The only people who consider us evil are the conspiracy theorists. The vast majority of folks support our organization and charitable outreach. The conspiracy theorists, in my opinion, have either been blinded by propaganda (most of it papal in origin), or are just having fun with crazy stories.

11. could there be a remote possibility that you actually are being brainwashed in some way or another, cause you probably wouldn't know it.

The interesting thing about Masonry is, as a philosophical society, it constantly encourages people to think for themselves. After all, this is why our Order originally came under suspicion in the first place. Brainwashing requires adherence to the herd mentality (it was the North Korean Communists who invented the term, as a method to convert captured US GI's to their view of socialism). Masonry is therefore the opposite of this (as it encourages diversity of views, religious beliefs, etc.).

12. have you EVER, EVERRRR noticed ANYTHING strange in some masonic lodge or heard something strange or was there anything strange said or SOMETHING, like somebody died or something under strange circemstances(dutch schooling at its best:s i tryd though)

No. When one goes to a Lodge meeting, he encounters basically the same sort of stuff he would in any other club. The major difference of Masonry against other civic organizations is its inititiaion procedures that introduce new members to the Society.

thanks you trinityman, someone gets it. i agree with you totally, but recognizing that this is a place for disscussion and not for proof, i'm getting really tired off threads being brought of topic to accuse me of not having proof of what i present. oh well, the people who are openminded still seem to get it, thankfully.

oh btw you get the 2nd of my 3 votes for that

[edit on 15-8-2006 by hexrain1]

Originally posted by hexrain1
thanks you trinityman, someone gets it. i agree with you totally, but recognizing that this is a place for disscussion and not for proof, i'm getting really tired off threads being brought of topic to accuse me of not having proof of what i present. oh well, the people who are openminded still seem to get it, thankfully.

Please don't accuse me of being open-minded... you'll lose all credibility amongst conspiracy fantasists

Incidentally, my pet hate is for people to post opinion on ATS as if it were fact. Phrases like IMO, IMHO, 'I think', 'I believe' and 'In my experience' are underused and, if applied correctly, are guaranteed to facilite a smooth discussion with mutual respect all round.

In my opinion

oh btw you get the 2nd of my 3 votes for that

Aww. Thanks Hex.

PS - everything I say must be taken in the context that I am not a 33º, and consequently have no idea what I am talking about

trinity i get your point. but for me personally the only things i know personaly i experienced, i didnt hear it on this site or a masonic website or an anti-masonic website, i observed it with my eyes. i know it doesnt help those who want a reference but if there is a conspiracy dont you think references could be contrived. but anyway, thanks for being candid. i dont expect everyone to believe me when i have an opinion but i also dont want to hold back something from my own life that i think will add to the disscussion.

maybe the solution is for masons to come out of the closet with their club and work together with the rest of humanity towards harmony and understanding if it's really not all that bad

it doesn't make sense to see lower degree masons defending masonry as a whole when they aren't even 'enlightened'/covered from to what the higher degrees are...

there's a masonic sect know as the illuminaten..all presidents are masons(bush may be skull and bones but they are connected to masonry also)...nothin to worry about

masonry/judaism/christianity all so similar..all relate back to ancient egypt, aton/moses and sun worship..huge israel/jewish masonry ties..solomon and moses of jewish bloodline..am I wrong to say that it is written masonic lodges must be built in jewish/judaic architecture..I've also come across that all 33 degree masons must be judaic preists? weird 'coincidences'..I believe bloodlines have an influence, but I'm not being anti 'jew'..we're all human..though like I said I don't think such things are coincidences

Originally posted by invisibleplane
I've also come across that all 33 degree masons must be judaic preists?

Wow! I sure didn't know that. They must have forgotten to tell me that when I received the Thirty-Third Degree.

Thanks for letting me know.

I hate to post and run, but apparently I'd better get busy converting to Judaism.

Originally posted by invisibleplane
maybe the solution is for masons to come out of the closet with their club and work together with the rest of humanity towards harmony and understanding if it's really not all that bad

I actually prefer the fact that Freemasonry cannot justly be accused of proselytising.

We would be damned if we did, and we are now damned (by some) that we don't.

Ignorance and fear of the unknown are the problem, not the fact that we refrain from preaching.

Originally posted by invisibleplane
maybe the solution is for masons to come out of the closet with their club and work together with the rest of humanity towards harmony and understanding if it's really not all that bad

But therein lies the point. Harmony, understanding, and other such good traits are not natural... they are not even the societal norm.

If they were, we'd have no reason to exist.

it doesn't make sense to see lower degree masons defending masonry as a whole when they aren't even 'enlightened'/covered from to what the higher degrees are...

I don't think we have any lower degree masons around, do we? I'm a master mason... and every mason I know on here is, as well.

there's a masonic sect know as the illuminaten..all presidents are masons(bush may be skull and bones but they are connected to masonry also)...nothin to worry about

No, there isn't. No, they aren't. Stop posting this, like it was fact, unless you can back it up with verifiable sources.

masonry/judaism/christianity all so similar..

No, they aren't. Two are religions. One is not.

am I wrong to say that it is written masonic lodges must be built in jewish/judaic architecture..I've also come across that all 33 degree masons must be judaic preists?

Wrong on both counts.

Originally posted by invisibleplane
maybe the solution is for masons to come out of the closet with their club and work together with the rest of humanity towards harmony and understanding if it's really not all that bad

How much more Out Of The Closet would you like us to be? These days more and more freemasons (such as those who post here on ATS) are willing to talk quite openly about the Craft and discuss all aspects of it with non-masons. Grand Lodges and even some private lodges now all have websites, openly advertize the time and location of their meetings, and even post pertinent snippets of our ritual for all to see. Masonry has hit the mainstream bookstores and even Hollywood. You can walk into most major masonic centers and have a guided tour of the building and ask any question you like.

Since time immemorial freemasons have worked with the 'rest' of humanity for those aims because we are part of humanity. Freemasons teach your children, sell you cars, clean your streets and police your neighborhood. Hardly any freemason you meet can be defined purely in terms of his masonry, and for many it is just a small part of their overall life.

Then again, there are some members of ATS who would like to see us climb back into the closet again (and then blow it up LOL).

Originally posted by Appak


Wow! I sure didn't know that. They must have forgotten to tell me that when I received the Thirty-Third Degree.

Awww, come on now, Appak, you big ole Rabbi.

Originally posted by Hobbes

Originally posted by invisibleplane
maybe the solution is for masons to come out of the closet with their club and work together with the rest of humanity towards harmony and understanding if it's really not all that bad

But therein lies the point. Harmony, understanding, and other such good traits are not natural... they are not even the societal norm.

If they were, we'd have no reason to exist.

it doesn't make sense to see lower degree masons defending masonry as a whole when they aren't even 'enlightened'/covered from to what the higher degrees are...

I don't think we have any lower degree masons around, do we? I'm a master mason... and every mason I know on here is, as well.

there's a masonic sect know as the illuminaten..all presidents are masons(bush may be skull and bones but they are connected to masonry also)...nothin to worry about

No, there isn't. No, they aren't. Stop posting this, like it was fact, unless you can back it up with verifiable sources.

masonry/judaism/christianity all so similar..

No, they aren't. Two are religions. One is not.

am I wrong to say that it is written masonic lodges must be built in jewish/judaic architecture..I've also come across that all 33 degree masons must be judaic preists?

Wrong on both counts.

www.planetquo.com...
www.taroscopes.com...

so then in this documentary about mainly masonry, why is there crests shown covered in masonic symbolism ALONG with skull and bones/coffins, and why is it the sect created of the illuminaten written text wise on display in a museum..and I hope know you weren't discrediting a majority if not all us presidents being masons, along with so many other people in positions of power..

and it doesn't matter if they are religions are not, all date back to egypt(mmm sun/aton worship)..which then dates back to irish druids...but of course the sun and so much else can be used for good and bad

what is thought of these quotes?

…We see our edifice…crumbling and covering the ground with ruins, we see the destruction that our hands no longer arrest…a great sect arose, which taking for its motto the good and the happiness of man, worked in the darkness of the conspiracy to make the happiness of humanity a prey for itself. This sect is known to everyone, its brothers are known no less than it name. it is they who have undermined the foundations of the Order to the point of complete overthrow; it is by them that all humanity has been poisoned and led astray for several generations…They began by casting odium on religion…Their masters had nothing less in view than the thrones of the earth, and the governments of the nations was to be directed by their nocturnal clubs…the misuse of our order…has produced all the political and moral troubles with which the world is filled today…we must from this moment dissolve the whole Order - Duke of Brunswick (Grand Master of German Freemasonry. Written to Brothers in 1794)

I have been convinced that we, as an Order, have come under the power of some very evil occult Order, profoundly versed in science both occult and otherwise, though not infallible, their methods being BLACK MAGIC, that is to say, electro-magnetic power, hypnotism and powerful suggestion. We are convinced that the Order is being controlled by some Sun Order, after the nature of the Illuminati, if not by that Order itself - The Duke of Brunswick

Each lodge is and must be a symbol of the Jewish Temple: each Master of the Chair, a representative of the Jewish king, and every Mason a personification of the Jewish workman - An Encyclopedia of European Freemasonry (Philadelphia, 1906)

Masonic authors Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas, admit that every Grand Master of Freemasonry is a priest of Yahweh - Juri Lina (Architects of Deception)

Freemasonry is a Jewish establishment, whose history, grades, official appointments, passwords, and explanations are Jewish from beginning to end - Rabbi Isaac Wise (of B’nai B’rith, quoted in Israelite of America, Aug 3, 1866)

Masonry is based on Judaism. Eliminate the teachings of Judaism from the Masonic Ritual and what is left? - The Jewish Tribune (New York, Oct 28, 1927)

Freemasonry is born out of Israel - The Jewish Guardian (April 12 1922)

The most important duty of freemasonry must be to glorify the Jews, which has preserved the unchanged divine standard of wisdom - Le Symbolisme (July 1928)

In the present nations, freemasonry is only of benefit to the Jews, but it shall be abolished later - Theodore Herzl (Founder and Leader of World Zionism)

Most Jews do not like to admit it, but our god is Lucifer - Harold Wallace Rosenthal (interviewed 1976)

The enigmatic Masonic insignia "G," which this author considers a cryptic signature of the Gaonim (elite Levites) of Babylon is, I believe not unrelated to the Celtic word Gnadir, which means "serpent," and which was used by the Druids as a title. Indeed, the very word cross, shares roots with the Latin ceras which also means "the serpent." As said, the upper echelons within the Masonic Fraternities are under orders to preserve the ancient archive of geomantic, geometric and astrological knowledge cultivated by those nations and cultures that have been eradicated by the descendants of the Cult of Aton.

www.taroscopes.com...

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Appak


Wow! I sure didn't know that. They must have forgotten to tell me that when I received the Thirty-Third Degree.

Awww, come on now, Appak, you big ole Rabbi.

Shucks. Now that the true secret of the Thirty-Third Degree is out, I guess all I can say is, well,

MAZEL TOV!

[edit on 17-8-2006 by Appak]

Originally posted by invisibleplane
so then in this documentary about mainly masonry, why is there crests shown covered in masonic symbolism ALONG with skull and bones/coffins

Ok, so you are saying that if masonry uses a skull and bones as a symbol, then it is directly linked to the Yale organization 'Skull and Bones'?

Are you saying that masonry is linked to all other organizations using such symbolism?

What about pirates? Are masons really some sort of high-seas privateer conspiracy? YARR!

and I hope know you weren't discrediting a majority if not all us presidents being masons

I am doing just that. Only fourteen US presidents have been Master Masons. One was initiated, but never progressed.

www.pagrandlodge.org...

along with so many other people in positions of power..

Sigh. Names, please.

what is thought of these quotes?

Speculation of a few men, some of whom are or were Masons. None of them speak with masonic authority.

In some cases:

Each lodge is and must be a symbol of the Jewish Temple: each Master of the Chair, a representative of the Jewish king, and every Mason a personification of the Jewish workman - An Encyclopedia of European Freemasonry (Philadelphia, 1906)

...it's personal interpretation. That passage was written by someone that holds Judaism in high esteem in his life, and is translating one onto the other. That doesn't mean the same holds for all (or even the majority of) masons.

In other cases:

Masonic authors Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas, admit that every Grand Master of Freemasonry is a priest of Yahweh - Juri Lina (Architects of Deception)

...it's someone with an agenda. I mean, c'mon... look at the title of the cited work.

In other cases:

Most Jews do not like to admit it, but our god is Lucifer - Harold Wallace Rosenthal (interviewed 1976)

...it's completely irrelevant to the topic. What does this have to do with Freemasonry?