"Mystery Projectile" Penetrates M1A1

Again John, thank you for the information and your persistence that it was a HEAT round.

I am going to point out what experts have said:
"�It�s a real strange impact,� said a source who has worked both as a tank designer and as an anti-tank weapons engineer. �This is a new one. � It almost definitely is a hollow-charge warhead of some sort, but probably not an RPG-7� anti-tank rocket-propelled grenade."

And.....

"At this time, it appears most likely that an RPG-22 or some other improved variant of the Russian-designed weapon damaged the M1 tank, sources concluded. The damage certainly was caused by some sort of shaped-charge or hollow-charge warhead, and the cohesive nature of the destructive jet suggests a more effective weapon than a fragmented-jet RPG-7."


Being that the RPG-22 does indeed use a HEAT round, to be exact, a 72mm grenade HEAT round, you may be onto something.
Here's what I don't understand......
If they have anti-tank weapons experts looking at this, why are they having a hard time claiming it is a "mystery projectile"? The RPG-22 has been around since around 1985....wouldn't you think they would have seen what the damage and penetration looked like from a RPG-22 by now? Besides the 2nd comment from the article I just mentioned above, they still seem mystified........
Just wondering.


regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof

Here's what I don't understand......
If they have anti-tank weapons experts looking at this, why are they having a hard time claiming it is a "mystery projectile"? ... Besides the 2nd comment from the article I just mentioned above, they still seem mystified........
Just wondering.
regards
seekerof

Therein lies what is probably a genuine conspiracy of sorts... Events such as this are generally filled with misinformation so as not to further empower other elements of an enemy that may not be on the same page as the ones responsible for the tank kill.

However, it is this type of disinformation that arguably can save lives and i actually have no problem with it...

intelgurl

That is just because:

US EXPERTS HAVE NOT YET SEEN A NEW TYPE OF RPG-7 ROUNDS OR RPG-1X/2X series strikes on any target.

Russians btw have plenty experience on these..

From Caucasus..



40 years on, RPG-7 still deals certain death!



Says it all.



For All Seasons: The Old But Effective RPG-7 Promises to Haunt the Battlefields of Tomorrow!

The maximum range for antitank grenades against area targets is 920 meters, at which point the round self-destructs after its 4.5 second flight. The antipersonnel grenades reach over 1100 meters. Among the production grenades are the PG-7, PG-7M, PG-7N, and PG-7VL antitank grenades with armor penetrability of up to 600mm of rolled homogeneous steel. The PG-7VR is a tandem warhead designed to penetrate explosive reactive armor and the armor underneath. The OG-7 and OG-7M are high-explosive antipersonnel grenades.

Yeah!!!

RPG-7 is still IN THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN.

It is only the badly trained users that are to blame that it has not have more SUCCESS against US ARMOR!

With 600mm penetration and tandem warhead IT CAN EFFECTIVELY KNOCK OUT ANYTHING.



[Edited on 3-11-2003 by FULCRUM]

This here is hardly a KILL!

This is only case of slight (minor) DAMAGE.

KILL is when tank has been so badly damage that it CANNOT BE REPAIRED!

LIKE BLOWN TO PIECES OR TOTALLY BURNT!


MINOR DAMAGE TO TANK (MBT)..

M1A1 Abrams Lessons Learned During Iraq War 2003






KILLED M1s..



And there were many others,

KILLED by Iraqis.



And Btw Seeker,

See the Holes made by Maveric?

Maveric also has HEAT warhead..

Which brings me back to RPG..


3-69 AR, A23 RPG To Left Side


3-69 AR, A23 RPG To Left Side Penetration into Hydraulic Reservoir

RPG, even the OLD ones used by Iraqis will and can damage/destroy M1.

Maybe a lucky shot with a .50 BMG raufoss ?

www.biggerhammer.net...
Check out the video
www.biggerhammer.net...

[Edited on 3-11-2003 by xspook]

Great information John.
Though your obvious bias makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up, I'll forgive ya.
BTW, if an M1 can be 'killed' then be assurd that other MBT's can likewise be 'killed.'

Good job and thank you for your imput.

I have yet to see any follow-up stories to this occurence but will remain on the look-out.

Thanks for the imput everyone and John.


regards
seekerof

It was some kind of rail gun, with a very small caliber judging by the exit hole. It was not the average gun, im thinking magnetically accelerated or mabe a kinetic.

This damage was done by HEAT warhead most likely delivered by RPG-7..

RPG-7 which is still and has always been a very good weapon in its 'class'..

RPG-7 has shot down more aircraft (Many Russian/USSR and US helicopters have been badly damaged or downed by this 'AT' weapon..) and killed more people than any other 'AT' weapon. (at least after ww2)

It has also knocked out more armor than any other 1 man 'AT' weapon.. (After ww2..)

Alone in Chechenya HUNDREDS OF RUSSIAN APCs/IFVs/TANKs!
(Because of this 1994-1996 war experience Russians have this joke about Old man asking from a young man in Moscow that what did you learn in Grozny.. In this joke the Young replys: Old man, i learned that the TURRET OF A MBT CAN FLY 20 meters to the air..)



And trucks, jeeps.. bunkers.. whatever!

RPG-7 IS THE AK-47 OF THE AntiTank WEAPONS.. OLD, YET STILL POWERFUL!



[Edited on 3-11-2003 by FULCRUM]

Just for you John/Fulcrum.......

"ARMORED WARFARE: Mystery Projectile Explained"
Link:
www.strategypage.com...

Article: (small)
"November 5, 2003: The "Mystery Projectile" that caused the penetration of an M-1 tanks side armor was probably a Russian RPG-7V or similar type. This is an improved version with wave shaper in the HEAT warhead. The pictures of the penetration show classic HEAT warhead circular flash and light material splash (aluminum or similar from outer warhead casing) in a roughly circular area and at between 500 - 800 mm radius around the penetration hole. It also seems as if the entry hole on the skirt plate has a ragged and enlarged hole. This is consistent with wave shaped warheads that do not have optimal performance at point of impact as the jet is still being focused. In pictures 2-5 there is virtually no spalling around the inside exit hole and immediately adjacent interior equipment. Only items directly in penetration path has been punctured or splashed with molten copper (see gun guard picture). It appears as if the jet was disrupted and started deflagrating by interior components spaced effect and material compositions. The last picture shows residual heat discoloration on the switch box, which is typical of molten metal heat transfer and short-circuit effects as can be expected when you send conductive liquid or particles into an electrical box.

The damage done is similar in appearance to that done to other armored vehicles that have been penetrated by an RPG-7. In this case, the round hit one of the few areas on the side of the tank that was vulnerable to penetration by an RPG round."


Wtg on your analysis of this John.
I will never doubt you again........


regards
seekerof

Thanks..



It really would have been cool if it had been hit by railgun, laser or microwave gun..



But like i noted from the very start of this, it was a HEAT warhead most likely from RPG-7..



Just one final note to this:

PRG-7s and it RPGs come in many forms..

Russian variants are supreme..

And the copys from various nations are not nearly as good..

(Hit % and penetration is much better in all Russian variants..)



It is good to BE right..



*edited for a typo.. or better yet for a missing word..*



[Edited on 5-11-2003 by FULCRUM]

I was thinking about another incident with that Iraqie teenager Steve-O. When his father was arrested the found a ''complete weapons system they hadn't seen before.'' I wonder if this can be related with this tank Incident.

Have they ever said what this unknown weapon system was yet?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If "the projectile buried itself 50mm into the armor bla bla" then sure the "mystery" projectile is there 50mm into the armor on the other side.

Or am i wrong?

One of the main effects of a shaped charged when it penetrates is to flash heat the interior. Therefore the occupants should have suffered severe burns. Or is this an effect only seen from heavyweight ATGM's and not the shoulder fired type ?

By time an RPG XX projectile has gotten through a MBT's armour it has expended most of its kinetic energy. Most times an RPG "Kill" on a MBT is through the charge hitting something fragile and essential on the inside of the tank ... i.e crew, gunnery computer, live ammo etc. Its only the big stuff that can cause physical kills on a MBT of the Abrams size.

Another possibility for this whole thing is it was caused by a shell from either one of the many smaller ATGM's in Iraq or a shot from an AMR. The Styr AMR (or its Russian Counterpart) produces a fairly similar effect to a HEAT projectile, and as a lot of the warheads available for both are still either highly classified or just unknown in the West.

Most likely however it's just a newer RPG projectile or light ATGM that has done this, proving once again that all the propaganda and paper tiger roars of the "indestructable" US military machine are no match for the reality of war.

May the Gods have mercy on the poor buggers in those tanks if the US ever fights a foe thats prepared to really fight back.

Originally posted by omega1
It was some kind of rail gun, with a very small caliber judging by the exit hole. It was not the average gun, im thinking magnetically accelerated or mabe a kinetic.

no way
a rail gun firing would leave a bigger exit hole. hell the speeds they make would make the tank lurch. the projectile might even go through the other side of the hull.

Looks like a glob of that acid blood from the Alien movies.

Look at that light. Doesn't seem to be casted right (that huge light isn't being cast inside the bullet hole, only outside). Thus, there could be the chance that this is faked or am I just seeing things?

[edit on 28-8-2004 by Blackout]

Some of the light must have been cast into the hole other wise the hole would be all black. You can see some of the color inside the hole.

Laser propelled object seems likely

Originally posted by IntelRetard
Laser propelled object seems likely

Yeah right, and what sort of poweresource would thay need for this. Laser propelled objects, yeah right.