People like us

Ok im starting to get riled over the accusations of Nazism and anti-semitism being bandied about here. It's time to get somethings clear.

People like us who question Israel's actions do so even though it goes against the mainstream. People like us who question Israel's actions do so even though there is a high likelihood it could negatively impact on our careers and social standing. People like us who continue to question Israel's actions do so because it is the right thing to do. People like us pay no attention to who is commiting the injustices, we just see the injustices and say it is not acceptable.

It was people like us who stood up with Martin Luther King and questioned the morality of segregation and the inequalities of civil rights within the United States.

It was people like us who stood up with Nelson Mandela and questioned apartheid and the endemic racism in South Africa.

It was people like us who fought against Nazism and all that it stood for. Including delusions of racial superiority, ethnic cleansing, devine right and mass murder which all present themselves in Israel's behaviour.

All those people who stood up did so when it was not in their best interests to do the right thing. They did so against the mainstream of the time and their stance later became the mainstream itself.

How dare you call us anti-semites and Nazis when we're standing up against the very same things people stood up to protect the Jews against in the 1940s! We will prevail.

[edit on 7/8/06 by subz]

How dare you play holier than thou and purport to be of some higher, nobler nature that those who support Israel?!

the one thing that bugs me, is that anytime you want to say something that israel or jews did or do, you have to put in a disclaimer, saying you are not against jews.

we know they went through bad times, but so did many other peoples.

Originally posted by jsobecky
How dare you play holier than thou and purport to be of some higher, nobler nature that those who support Israel?!

Because to disagree with a country when they engage in collective punishment, ethnic cleansing, illegal occupation, racial segregation and engage in war crimes is to be on the right side of the debate. Hiding your head in the sand and lending your unequivocal and steadfast support for Israel because of what the Jews endured during the Holocaust is ignorant and asking for abuses of this nature to occur.

Basically, it is a holier than thou position to take

I know why people get so heated over some issues, but I never understand why people
seem to think they have enough information to form an opinion on ANY subject that warrants, anger and hatred. My favorite quote of all time and my personal motto (which
will be in my signature once I figure out how to make a signature) was spoken by
Benjamin Disraeli (to the best of my knowledge, I know other quotes from him have been debunked) goes something like this -- 'To be conscious of the fact that you know NOTHING, is a great step towards knowledge". Benjamin says 'great' step. I say 'first' step.

None of us here have any clue the motivations behind the Israelies nor Hezbollah nor
any other entity. I would say even the Israelies and Hezbolites (if you will) don't even
know their OWN motivations. Subz and andy make good points about being labeled
when speaking out against these groups.

I didn't read into Subs post anything remotely close to a comparison between Israel supporters and non-supporters.

Sorry you took his post personally JSO. Maybe a breather and cookie is in order?

Here here sub, great post. Its people like us who are gonna save this world, so you people better show some respect instead of spouting your opinion of how we shouldnt have opinions...even if its based on fact. Fact is, its people like us who have the courage to stand up and fight for something right instead of going along with the evil plans of your mis-leaders. You people dont even know the history of Israel; you people dont evnen know the history of how Israel was forged and stolen from the palestinian people, on the back of the holocaust that was created by the same force that created Israel.

How dare you mock sub, who dares speak his truth, while you are so blind and ignorant to the truth itself? We have a right to get fired up, we have a right to get angry at things that are unjust and that the majority of sheeple cant see because they are too blinded by the disinfo propoganda spoonfed to them by their CIA owned media!

We are the Warrior Spirits, who have come to Earth at this time to effect change, and to get out there and speak our truth, and get fired up so that the people will realize what a grave situation we face.

We are under attack by a criminal Elite of our own who are sick psychopaths and who enjoy death and destruction. A evil group of individuals who see us as weak and pathetic because we have that natural empathy, because we feel love and have compassion, and because we have some kind of conscious. Its discusting, these people must be stopped! You can either help the fight against tyranny, or support it by being nothing but a ignorant jibbering twit!

Originally posted by subz
Because to disagree with a country when they engage in collective punishment, ethnic cleansing, illegal occupation, racial segregation and engage in war crimes is to be on the right side of the debate.

So that puts you on the wrong side of the debate, since Iran and others have declared their desire to push Israel into the sea. And since you support Hezbollah, you agree with those who commit acts of atrocity against Israel.

And support for Israel does not necessarily come from what they endured during the Holocaust. It is for many reasons, including the fact that they have been attacked by a terrorist organization working under the direction of other ME nations.

Basically, it is a holier than thou position to take

No, you are self-aggrandizing by alluding that "people like you" single-handedly stood against apartheid, segregation, and Nazism. You and the chosen few against the Israelis and the rest of the world.:shk: Yeah, right.

Many Israelis, and people who currently support Israel, walked shoulder to shoulder with those protestors.

So don't make yourself out to be part of the chosen ones.

Originally posted by subz

Originally posted by jsobecky
How dare you play holier than thou and purport to be of some higher, nobler nature that those who support Israel?!

Because to disagree with a country when they engage in collective punishment, ethnic cleansing, illegal occupation, racial segregation and engage in war crimes is to be on the right side of the debate.

So then you're against most of the Arab nations?

Originally posted by nextguyinline
I didn't read into Subs post anything remotely close to a comparison between Israel supporters and non-supporters.

Maybe you missed this part of his post:

People like us who question Israel's actions do so even though it goes against the mainstream. People like us who question Israel's actions do so even though there is a high likelihood it could negatively impact on our careers and social standing. People like us who continue to question Israel's actions do so because it is the right thing to do.

Where is the same animosity toward Hezbollah? I thought you were equal opportunity inquisitioners? You say Subz is impartial; his words say the opposite.

Sorry you took his post personally JSO. Maybe a breather and cookie is in order?

I don't particularly care for those who claim a higher moral ground in order to feel good about themselves, and to create division among the members here.

from AscendedMaster We are the Warrior Spirits, who have come to Earth at this time to effect change, and to get out there and speak our truth, and get fired up so that the people will realize what a grave situation we face.

"Warrior Spirits"? Which planet are you from?

[edit on 7-8-2006 by jsobecky]

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by nextguyinline
I didn't read into Subs post anything remotely close to a comparison between Israel supporters and non-supporters.

Maybe you missed this part of his post:

People like us who question Israel's actions do so even though it goes against the mainstream. People like us who question Israel's actions do so even though there is a high likelihood it could negatively impact on our careers and social standing. People like us who continue to question Israel's actions do so because it is the right thing to do.

The point of his post was to address the labeling of outspoken critics against b]Israel. That's why you see what you quoted. Nowhere does he address the head-butting between supporters and non-supporters. Maybe you two have a history
of bickering over the issue, I don't know. But your just incorrect, and typed up your
post emotionally rather than analytically.

There is no animosity towards Hezbollah in the post because Hezbollah was not the subject.

I also don't see any attempt at member division or an attempt to claim anything morally. Did you miss this part of his post?...

"People like us pay no attention to who is commiting the injustices, we just see the injustices and say it is not acceptable. "


[edit on 7-8-2006 by nextguyinline]

Mod Edit: BB Code.

[edit on 7/8/2006 by Mirthful Me]

There is no mention of Hezbollah or Arab countries in this post because when I speak out against Hezbollah's killing of innocent Israelis I dont automatically get labeled 'anti-Arab' or a Nazi.

If you'd have a look at my signature you'd see that I dont condone any acts, from any side, that harm civilians.

Jsobecky, I said it was people like us who stood up with the likes of King and Mandela. If you have to twist my words around to give yourself bullets to fire then it makes me glad

junglejake, if Arab nations kill innocent civilians and engage in racism and religiously inspired superiority such as Saudi Arabia, then yes I do not agree with them either. Now if I was to be called 'anti-Islam' or some other such incorrect label over saying that I would formulate a similar post to this one. But as yet that has NEVER happend. Only when you DARE criticise Israel do you end up on the receiving end of baseless accusations and name calling, Ive had enough of it. It stops now.

[edit on 7/8/06 by subz]

I bow down to you oh great Subz! If only all men on this planet thought the way you do! possessed the higher level of moral character that you have so much of! Oh how I have been shamed, I am truly less human then you, oh great Subz, please, please enlighten me, and all those morally inferior disgrace for humans with your advanced knowledge in world affairs! I beg you great one, to share with us your masterful skills of appeasement so that the world would be a much better place.

Sad thing is, most of y'all all so high up on your own damn horse you would probably agree with every thing I just rambled on about, though you don't dare admit it, but I can see you know.. running to the mirror. give a little fashion pose and think "Indeed, I am truly the greatest moral character in all the world!" Go on, admit it you know it's true.

So sorry, I just can't be a ... great person.. like your self Subz.

[edit on 8/7/2006 by Rockpuck]

It was people like us who stood up with Martin Luther King and questioned the morality of segregation and the inequalities of civil rights within the United States.

It was people like us who stood up with Nelson Mandela and questioned apartheid and the endemic racism in South Africa.

It was people like us who fought against Nazism and all that it stood for. Including delusions of racial superiority, ethnic cleansing, devine right and mass murder which all present themselves in Israel's behaviour.

Yeah, okay man, your the saint, and everyone else is the sinner.

Time will tell

I see no one maintaining the contention that we must be anti-semitic to criticise Israel so mission accomplished thus far

If all you've got is mockery and name calling then what the hell am I worried about?

I must conceed, it is hard though seeing as though we dont have a crusty Bible passage to lay claim to moral high ground. But it's to be expected that the ignorant and those who are doing the wrongs will try to supress the truth as much as they can.

[edit on 7/8/06 by subz]

People want to belive That they are doing something holy and godly,protecting the weak,some kind of a modern knight ....

Alot of time wasted,for nothing....

Originally posted by subz
Time will tell

I see no one maintaining the contention that we must be anti-semitic to criticise Israel so mission accomplished thus far

Since no one beleives that in the first place, you haven't accomplished much.

If all you've got is mockery and name calling then what the hell am I worried about?

Indeed, I mean, you and Martin Luther King can just kick back and laugh about it over a couple of beers. "Hey remember that time the kkk tried to kill you, man, that was just like this one time, on ATS, where people made fun of me"
"Hey ghandi, remember when you went on the fast in order to free your entire country, man, that was just like, this one time, on ATS, where I said 'israel sucks' ."

But it's to be expected that the ignorant and those who are doing the wrongs will try to supress the truth as much as they can.

"Hey JFK, remember when you got your head blown off, and then they killed your brother, that was just like, this one time, on ATS, people didn't take me seriously'.

So could you explain how Israel has decided to eradicate an entire population because of their race/religion? I'm just curious, because it seems as though it's the Arab countries that are saying they want to push Israel into the ocean, that the Jew needs to be wiped off the face of the earth, that the Jew needs to go back to Europe.

As to Israel targetting civilians...Do you really think the Lebanonese death toll would be as low as it is if Israel decided to target civilians instead of a coward enemy that hides in civilian populations to carry out its attacks? If you want to take out civilians and you have the capability Israel does, you wait until about 9:15 in the morning and start bombing every large office building you can find.

I'm not seeing the racism you're seeing. I know you can quote individual rabbis that talk about this, but you can quote a psychotic individual from any group anywhere in the world -- that doesn't mean everyone of that religion/everyone of that nation feels that way, and that doesn't mean it's the country's policy.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Since no one beleives that in the first place, you haven't accomplished much.

If you dont believe one equals the other then great, but you're wrong to claim no one believes that. Shall I quote you some examples of this false methodology from this forum alone?

Originally posted by Nygdan
Indeed, I mean, you and Martin Luther King can just kick back and laugh about it over a couple of beers. "Hey remember that time the kkk tried to kill you, man, that was just like this one time, on ATS, where people made fun of me"
"Hey ghandi, remember when you went on the fast in order to free your entire country, man, that was just like, this one time, on ATS, where I said 'israel sucks' ."

More mockery, great work

Originally posted by Nygdan
"Hey JFK, remember when you got your head blown off, and then they killed your brother, that was just like, this one time, on ATS, people didn't take me seriously'.

Even more mockery

[edit on 7/8/06 by subz]

Originally posted by jsobecky

Many Israelis, and people who currently support Israel, walked shoulder to shoulder with those protestors.

So don't make yourself out to be part of the chosen ones.

Israel was in support of Apartheid Africa. It was with whom they were working on bomb testing with. Why would they go against it if they practiced it. They supported them even though the majority of those afrikkaners were racists who even hated jews, more then likely some who were nazis to boot.

It was only later when america began putting pressure that Israel ceased their chummy chummy relationship with the Afrikkaners.

Seems to me like certain people (no surprises, although I think Nygdan is being deliberately obstructive) are missing the entire point here.

The pojnt being, criticism of Israel does not automatically qualify you as a Nazi or Ant-Semite. I have been called this recently, even though I dish out the criticism both ways, I look at the situation objectively and don't have my favourite team.

The point is that we should be free to criticise Israel as we do any Arab organistation without the fear of being labelled as anti-Semitic (ignoring the fact that Palestinians and others are semitic too, if not more than the Israeli's).

If you criticise Iran/Syria/Hezbollah, you can be fairly safe in the knowledge no-one will pull you up and call you an Anti-Muslim, but do the reverse and call Israel on what it does, and before you know it, your've been labelled as a Neo-Nazi Islamo-Facist with a swastika printed on your forhead....

[edit on 7/8/06 by stumason]