How is this possible?? Crude unguided weapons

How is it that Hezbollah using crude unguided weapons is striking Military targets at a much higher ratio then civilian targets?

Meanwhile in Lebanon, Israel with its intelligent weapons just killed 19 more civilians and a LEBANESE SOLDIER (No not Hizbollah soldier) in another strike

Rocket strike kills 15 Israelis
Nadim Ladki, Reuters

Hizbollah rockets killed 12 soldiers and at least three civilians in Israel yesterday, the deadliest day of the war for Israel, as Lebanon rejected a draft UN resolution to end the 26-day-old conflict.

Israeli bombardment of southern Lebanon killed at least 19 civilians and a Lebanese soldier.

In the Israeli village of Kfar Giladi, a rocket hit a group of Israeli reservists called up for the Lebanon offensive. Medics said 12 were killed and dozens wounded.

Soldiers near the scene held their heads and one wept as a military ambulance pulled away. Helicopters landed nearby to fly the badly wounded to hospitals further from the war front.

Source



The Israeli government still insists that this has not been a war against the Lebanese government or the Lebanese civilians LOL
They intend on attacking now Lebanese infrastructure and symbols of the Lebanese government . This they say is in retaliation for the bombing that Hizbollah gave them on Sunday following the air strikes that Israel gave to Lebanon.

Are these Israeli clowns joking?They are RETALIATING for a retaliatory strike? Who are they kidding?

IDF plans to ramp up offensive
The Israel Defense Forces plan to ramp up their offensive in Lebanon in response to Sunday's rocket attacks on northern Israel.

A senior General Staff officer told Haaretz that for the first time since the fighting began, Israel plans to attack strategic infrastructure targets and symbols of the Lebanese government.

Other than bombing the Beirut airport to prevent arms transfers to Hezbollah, Israel has hitherto not targeted Lebanon's infrastructure, insisting that it is only at war with Hezbollah, not with the Lebanese government or people.

However, the officer said, "we are now in a process of renewed escalation. We will continue hitting everything that moves in Hezbollah - but we will also hit strategic civilian infrastructure."

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Defense Minister Amir Peretz will meet with senior defense officials this morning to discuss the continuation of the operation.

Source


This is some rescue attempt by the Israelis to rescue the 2 soldiers. Its definitely not an Entebbe thats for sure. I wonder if they realize or care that almost 100 of their own are dead right now?

Could it be that hezbollah is firing at Isrealei postions with RPG-26 at few hundred meters, getting civilian casualities at those conditions is pretty hard. Mosnews.com reported that majority of IDF casualities is due to anti tank LOS weaponry not from artillery rockets.

All Non-LOS weapons Hezbollah uses are "aimed" towards civilian areas, since a residential area/town is the smallest target Hezbollah is capable of attacking with anything resembling accuracy.


I will not further comment on justification of the Israeli Offencive, since i assume they do what they see is best for their country. And that's has nothing to do with ethics... No one has any moral highground in ME

You know what, I disliked Hisbollah as much as the next person, while strongly disagreeing with what Israel was doing.

But if you now look at how Hisbollah was originaly started reflected on the fight they are now again fighting, imho, they are in their full right and should, fight strong and hard and rip the Israeli military and goverment a new one.

No matter how everyone looks at it, Hisbollah is defending their homeland with the weapons they have, striking whatever military infrastructures they can, with weapons they can't even aim right at point blank, attaining a higher success ratio then the Israeli.

The Israeli military on the other hand started with and is still recieving, US Grade precision weaponry and most likely both Israeli and US military satellites covering the entire middle east and they persistently keep killing civilians and Lebanees soldiers, with who they are supposed to have no beef.

If they aren't lying about that, at least they have shown very clearly they have no regard for human life other then a select group of their own population and are trying to bomb an entire nation into submission to root out a few guerilla fighters.

By any definition of terrorism, the Israeli Goverment are IT.

Could it be that hezbollah is firing at Isrealei postions with RPG-26 at few hundred meters, getting civilian casualities at those conditions is pretty hard. Mosnews.com reported that majority of IDF casualities is due to anti tank LOS weaponry not from artillery rockets.

All Non-LOS weapons Hezbollah uses are "aimed" towards civilian areas, since a residential area/town is the smallest target Hezbollah is capable of attacking with anything resembling accuracy.

At least Hisbollah is showing that with the precision weapons they have, they are striking the right targets, Military targets, while the IDF goes "Ooops" with every hit they make and eventhough Civilians are the main targets they kill, they claim that its unintentional.

[edit on 7/8/06 by thematrix]

Thematrix

Hezbollah has top of the line AT weaponry from Syria, you can aim them...
But the constant rocket barrage at random into residential areas is unacceptable. As is the high Misfire rate of IDF PGMs...

But it's not Hezbollahs business to defend Lebanon, It's the job of the Lebanese army, and i say that Lebanese army should have joined the fight from day one, but clearly they are too frightened to fight for the sovrenity of their nation.
They should either attack IDF or Hezbollah or both, otherwise Lebanon is not a nation but ungoverned territory.

If the Lebanees army joined the fight from day 1, while Israel stated it was going after Hisbollah, not Lebanon, the "world" (media + Israeli Govt + US Govt that is) would have condemned the Lebanees goverment for helping and protecting Terrorists, designating it a Terrorist state, which would pritty much have ment Israel could do whatever they wanted with Lebanon (not that they can't now it seems ...).



[edit on 7/8/06 by thematrix]

Originally posted by northwolf
But it's not Hezbollahs business to defend Lebanon, It's the job of the Lebanese army, and i say that Lebanese army should have joined the fight from day one, but clearly they are too frightened to fight for the sovrenity of their nation.

They should either attack IDF or Hezbollah or both, otherwise Lebanon is not a nation but ungoverned territory.

You are 100% correct North but the attack on the entire Southern part of Lebanon placed them in that position. Israel made a big mistake by doing this widely instead of narrowing it down and assaulting Hizbollah only. They now appear to be the only people defending Lebanon right now and since they are even striking Christian neighborhoods and infrastructure even those people who were once totally against them are seeing them as being their defenders.

The Regular army should be involved. You are also right about that. If Israel begins to strike out at proper Lebanese government symbols , they should and must get involved. They are sitting around getting killed while doing nothing.

Lebanon could have joined the fight before, when Israel bombed a Lebanees army base killing a douzen soldiers, but Israel made it very clear that was "an accident".

I'm thinking that if Lebanon gets involved and officialy asks its allies to help, you'll have half of the Middle East going at it over there.

This situation has so many ways to escalate and so few ways to cool down.

I sure hope at least 1 side will start listening to reason so we don't get that entire region in termoil.

Problem is, the nations supposed to try and reason with both sides are more then happy to get full scale war in the Middle East, they've been working towards that for so long.

[edit on 7/8/06 by thematrix]

Thematrix

How would it have been a illegal/supporting terrorism if Lebanese Air defences would have opened fire when Israelis started attacking at their territory without the authorisation of Lebanese government?

I sincerely hope that this will indeed escalate into a full scale war so that the issues in the ME can be settled into a situation where a lasting peace is possible... with recent peace developements gone as bad as they've gone, only way is to clean the table by decimating one sides all capabilites... sadly

I personaly couldn't care less who wins down there, but at least Israel showed some attempts to make peace earlier (Withdrawals from Gaza and S Lebanon)

Originally posted by thematrix
No matter how everyone looks at it, Hisbollah is defending their homeland with the weapons they have, striking whatever military infrastructures they can, with weapons they can't even aim right at point blank, attaining a higher success ratio then the Israeli.

The Israeli military on the other hand started with and is still recieving, US Grade precision weaponry and most likely both Israeli and US military satellites covering the entire middle east and they persistently keep killing civilians and Lebanees soldiers, with who they are supposed to have no beef.

First. I thought that it was the Lebanese Army's job to defend Lebanon, not Hezbollah's. Maybe if the Lebanese had considered the reprecussions they might not have let Hezbollah run rampant.

Maybe Israel should go back to using dumb bombs and just carpet bomb the hell out of Lebanon. Precision guided weapons are the reason that civilain casualties are not in the thousands by now. I'm curious as to exactly what are the casualty figures now? You can't trust any information from either government or the media. It is now coming to light that photographs have been faked, incidents have been staged and Hezbollah fighters are wearing civilian clothing so that they can be declared civilian casualties.

I'd say Human Rights Watch has issued pretty reliable numbers for this conflict, they were the first to drop Qana body count to the present 20+ level from the 50+.
Usually they tend to exaggerate civilan casualities a bit and count lot's of "fighters" as civilians, but with Lebanon their numbers have been quite accurate... (wonder if they have had a policy change after Kosovo miscalculations)

Don't know the current count.

IDF reports Israeli casualities accurately, Lebanese Government is clearly "fixing" up number of dead civilians (like in Qana)

Ps. This is purely my opinions since there are no hard facts for comparison.

Current consensus by press agencies is 925 civilians, 30 Lebanese army, 50 Hezbollah... i'd say we most can likely ad 100 from civilian toll to Hezbollah toll, since local rescue authorities are marking anyone not actually found with a weapon as a civilian... and Hezbollah survivors probably collect weapons from their fallen friends... (only smart thing to do)

Originally posted by JIMC5499
Maybe Israel should go back to using dumb bombs and just carpet bomb the hell out of Lebanon. Precision guided weapons are the reason that civilain casualties are not in the thousands by now. I'm curious as to exactly what are the casualty figures now? You can't trust any information from either government or the media. It is now coming to light that photographs have been faked, incidents have been staged and Hezbollah fighters are wearing civilian clothing so that they can be declared civilian casualties.

Using dumb bombs would be no difference from the "whoops I did it again" bombing they are doing with guided bombs.

And photographs weren't faked, they were exagerated. The original picture that came to light as a fake still showed a big black smokeplume over Qana.

The staged incidents thing, you think the Israeli don't stage things and fight a PR war?
Heck, just look at some of the people on ATS that came on here the day after this mess started.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
[ It is now coming to light that photographs have been faked, incidents have been staged and Hezbollah fighters are wearing civilian clothing so that they can be declared civilian casualties.

The faked picture should have no bearing on the Civilians of Lebanon. They enhanced the smoke it seems. I don't know why they would do that but it seems to have been done. It seems kind of stupid to have retouched the photo from its original since the original looks bad already. It was kind of dumb for Reuters editors not ot have noticed the touchups. They fired the photographer who also happened to be the same guy who did Qana photos, so of course Israel is taking full advantage of that fact.

The 'photoshopped' photo, along with all of the other times the Arab
media has been busted fabricating 'massacres' basically nullifies the significance of the reports coming out of the Lebanese side...

They've simply cried 'Wolf!' too many times.

My personal favorite was the intense grief of the pole bearers kept causing them to drop the martyr off of the funeral procession stretcher... Fortunately, the dead guy was quite agile and kept jumping back on...



With regards to improving the precision of the not so precision weapons, it can be done based on an even casual assessment of the past flight paths/performance.

If there is one thing we have verified since the start of this mess is that Hizbollah is intentionally harming/causing harm to be put upon their own civilians.

It's kind of a disgrace hearing the Lebanese PM whining about 'massacres'....

On a personal level, I also find it quite humorous that all of the usual propaganda about Israel being in violation 'UN resolutions' seems to have vanished...

Guess the pro-terrorist guys don't want to have to answer for 1599.

Originally posted by golemina

Guess the pro-terrorist guys don't want to have to answer for 1599.

Still waiting to hear about the ones where israel is supposed to withdraw from all occupied territories myself. As well as the ones calling for Israel to cease crossing international borders to assasinate/kidnap people too thats an oldie but goodie.

Kinda like the deeply burnt, blackened, decades old pot calling the kettle black.

Doubt those Muslims will be willing to let go of the only thing standing between them and the israeli border anytime soon. To add to it, Im sure you guys just added a bunch of fresh new young recruits to their roster by killing their family members that were never even part of hizbollah. Hey you reap what you sow. I just wouldn't want to hear complaints about the plants that come up in 2-5 years from the seeds planted by "Project Destroy Lebanon" is going to crop up for you. Don't expect any rose bushes from that flower bed.

No really ThePieMan... doesn't just about EVERYTHING become a reason for Arabs/Muslims to wanna go kill more Jews?

Especially those faked dead babies photos...



Does the guy that seems to be spotted a lot in those photos have a refrigerated trunk he just drags around... Or do you think he just improvises on the spot?

'Why hello ma'am! What a lovely child... May I hold him?'

It's just macrabre. It's a shame the terrorists don't care one iota about their fellows...

Everything is just a pretext to throw more gasoline on the fire.

Just LOOK at what the Jews/Zionists/Americans/Crusaders/yada yada yada have done now!

Yeah, Israel's been killing civilians left and right. Just ask the Lebanese government. Of course, it appears there's a 97.5% margin of error in death toll estimates...

BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora said Monday that one person was killed in an Israeli airstrike on the southern village of Houla, not 40 as he had earlier reported.

"The massacre in Houla, it turned out that there was one person killed," Reuters quoted Siniora as saying.

Oops.

Originally posted by The PieMaN
How is it that Hezbollah using crude unguided weapons is striking Military targets at a much higher ratio then civilian targets?

How is it that Hezbollah launches about 3,000 rockets into Israel and finally strikes some military reservists that they are hitting at military targets at a much higher ratio that civilian targets? I haven't heard of another IDF target in Israel being hit by Hezbollah rockets. Please explain that one to me. I am talking about Hezbollah attacks into Israel proper. 1 out of 3000 is 0.03333% success rate. With the 15,000 alleged rockets they have, Hezbollah is well on the way to killing 60 IDF soldiers with rockets and can declare victory over the IDF.

EDIT: Spellcheck

[edit on 7-8-2006 by pavil]

posted by golemina
Guess the pro-terrorist guys don't want to have to answer for 1599.

Guess the pro-Israel guys ignore the call for the full withdrawl of ALL foreign forces from Lebanon in UNSC res 1559. I don't suppose this includes Israel at all, no? Sheeba farms? Regular incursions by both Air and Land forces into Lebanon by Israel?

Or did it just mean all non-Israeli foreign forces?



[edit on 7/8/06 by stumason]

Originally posted by junglejake
Yeah, Israel's been killing civilians left and right. Just ask the Lebanese government. Of course, it appears there's a

Oops.

Even 1 innocent civilian is more then enough to have died because of a kidnapping done by someone else.