Castros a big teddy bear?

If you adopt communism as a way of life and you learn to love to kiss Castro's butt then you can become happy being a Cuban. You still will live a substandard life style compared to most of the americas but at least you can learn to be happy.

But if you don't accept the basic tenets of communism or you have some reason to not like Castro or you don't want to live like a beggar compared to most other people in the americas then you will not be happy.

Originally posted by Relentless
We still haven't seen a single real life Cuban (unless you are one) actually provide another side to the testimonials here.

I find that telling. Are there any Cuban (as in living in) ATS'ers on this board? If not, why not?

What a riot!!! This is funny. So what Muaddib and i have stated here over and over until we're blue in the face is just crap?
Some of you dont deserve the truth. Go to the library for facts-
I'm sure that will be better than getting straight facts from TWO Cubans.
What do real Cubans who lived through this know anyway??!!!

That's ATS for ya.

Originally posted by dgtempe
What a riot!!! This is funny. So what Muaddib and i have stated here over and over until we're blue in the face is just crap?

Some of you dont deserve the truth. Go to the library for facts-

I'm sure that will be better than getting straight facts from TWO Cubans.

What do real Cubans who lived through this know anyway??!!!

That's ATS for ya.

DG - I think you mistook what I was saying.

My point was we have you and Muaddib (and a few others) giving us straight facts and no one with first hand experience on the other side. I think your stories speak for themselves and was pointing out that the lack of debate from anyone who supports Castro (living under his regime) pretty much says it all.

[edit on 8/4/2006 by Relentless]

[edit on 8/4/2006 by Relentless]

[edit on 8/4/2006 by Relentless]

oh, sorry Relentless...I thought i woke up to "The Twilight Zone" for a minute there.....Any way i apologize for not getting your point.

You wont get any more comments from me because i cant deal with people (not you) who refuse to hear what two people who LIVED the situation has to say.

Have a good one! See you on meaningful threads

Originally posted by dgtempe
oh, sorry Relentless...I thought i woke up to "The Twilight Zone" for a minute there.....Any way i apologize for not getting your point.

You wont get any more comments from me because i cant deal with people (not you) who refuse to hear what two people who LIVED the situation has to say.

Have a good one! See you on meaningful threads

Err...whatever. Who refused to hear from you? Please quote where your opinion did not matter. I am glad to have a couple people with first hand experience posting in this thread. That was its intent. I was only trying to coax more from you. I would also like to hear from some opposition, but like you said, anyone not in opposition is still living in Cuba, and I would guess they aren't goofin' off on ATS.

Sorry you deamed this thread useless...I learned quite a bit.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
They are Catholic. They had to be Catholics in secret because to openly worship
God ment torture and poverty - even for an educated doctors family.
[edit on 8/2/2006 by FlyersFan]

I am extremely skeptical of statements like this, for purely real-world, realpolitik, down-to-earth practical reasons. I am not skeptical that Castro might LIKE to do something along these lines, but I am extremely skeptical of claims that he DOES, because I don't think he CAN.

No Communist government anywhere in the world, ever, has actually banned the prevailing religion, and in every Latin American country, including Cuba, the Roman Catholic Church is the prevailing religion. Every government, even a despotic one, depends on popular support for survival. Castro might get away with putting some restrictions on the Catholic Church, or with banning other, less popular churches, but to torture anyone who "openly worships God" is beyond his government's power, or that of any government. He is not an idiot. Therefore he does not do this.

Poverty? Well, that's more believable; the whole country is poor and always has been. Perhaps there are economic privileges for an elite, and one of the requirements for belonging to the elite is atheism. That would be typical of a state organized along Marxist-Leninist lines.

Regarding Muaddib's statements about life in Cuba, I am less skeptical of them. I do, however, think it's important, when looking at such things, to put them in perspective. It's natural for Americans upon hearing about life in Cuba to compare it to life in America, not only in terms of political freedom but also in terms of material abundance (and much of what Muaddib said related to that). America is a rich country. Cuba is a poor one. Naturally, things are worse there than here. The proper comparison is not what life is like there versus here, but what life is like there under Castro versus what it was like under Bautista. I imagine there was less regimentation and people didn't get issued ration books or be required by the government to work on special farms that grew food for export. What I am less certain of, though, is that material conditions as a practical matter were any better.

Is it worse to be issued ration books entitling a family to inadequate amounts of meat and milk each month, than it is to be unable to buy either of those in any quantity at all? It is worse to be required by the state to work on a farm producing goods for export, than to have to work on such a farm (or in a cigar factory, or whatever) for virtually slave wages, because it's the only work available? I don't know that I can answer those questions. Either one is pretty bad, in each case.

Castro is no Teddy bear; no head of state has ever been a Teddy bear (not even Theodore Roosevelt, for whom the toy was named). Truly benevolent dictators, too benevolent to ruthlessly put down potential opposition, end up dead, like Caesar. But he has the support of most (though not all) of the Cuban people; if he did not, he would no longer be in power. The people must, therefore, perceive some benefit to his rule, and to life under Communism.

My best guess as to why, is that when you go from starvation to a regimented, poor life in which at least you're not starving and your kids can get medical care when needed, it looks like improvement.

uhmmm...You mean Malevolent dictators, dont you?

I havent heard of a benevolent one yet.

As far as people putting up with Castro.......We put up with Bush. Can you say APATHY?

[edit on 4-8-2006 by dgtempe]

DG,

Haven't seen you get so worked up on a thread since, well, all the anti-GWB threads you've started. Kudos to you, though, for getting it right - this time. what you've said is based on facts, not fears or feelings. Castro is no "teddy bear", saint, benevolent dictator, or anything else that can be considered good. He has kept his people and country isolated and now about 50 years behind the rest of the developed world. I think that only the fact that he's done this in the western hemisphere and close to the U.S. has kept cuba from ending up like north korea.

Yes, it's time for all this to come to an end. Although I read recently that there are fears that Castro's death might cause cuban exiles here in the U.S. to try and go back to cuba to pick up relatives as part of some new mass migration. I would hope and prefer that the exiles would want to return home to rebuild cuba instead of just bringing more people here.

Centuriun,

I believe that lots will go back but i also think the majority will remain here. As far as bringing back relatives, i think it will take awhile. Most people in Cuba now are brainwashed, so i guess they will have to get little tastes of what freedom is and what real food tastes like. Besides, do we want a bunch of commies here because relatives made them come? I dont think so. Like i said, it will take years to sort all this out,imo.

Originally posted by dgtempe
uhmmm...You mean Malevolent dictators, dont you?

I havent heard of a benevolent one yet.

I named one. Gaius Julius Caesar, Dictator of Rome. I agree there aren't many, though.

As far as people putting up with Castro.......We put up with Bush. Can you say APATHY?

Oh, come on. Bush is bad as presidents go but he's nothing like what people allege Castro to be (arguably because he doesn't have the power, but still). Besides, we know we only have to put up with him for 2 more years, not for life.

The idea that a tyranny can be maintained purely by force, without any public support, is pure fantasy. Look what happened to the Soviet Union when that government lost the support of the people. Poof! Gone. Almost totally without violence, too. And all the Communist governments in the East European Soviet satellites, too. Once the USSR stopped propping them up from outside -- vanished like vapor.

If a government remains in power, you can be sure that a lot of its people support it. Whether we like it or not, they do. Or it would be gone.

Originally posted by Two Steps Forward


If a government remains in power, you can be sure that a lot of its people support it. Whether we like it or not, they do. Or it would be gone.

Yes, that is true. If you like to eat, feed your children, not be shot, and continue living generally, you can be sure that lots support him. If you speak against him you wont get your food ration and you risk death. I'd support him too.

Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
I am extremely skeptical of statements like this..

Well .. not that it means much to you .. but it is the honest truth. My friend and
his family escaped Cuba and according to him that is exactly what happened.

No Communist government anywhere in the world, ever, has actually
banned the prevailing religion,

Catholicism isn't the prevailing religion in China, however the communist
government definately has banned real Roman Catholicism. There are
underground ROMAN Catholic churches there. The state sponsored above
ground 'Catholic' churches are not really Roman Catholic. In order for a priest
to be truly ordained there must be apostolic succession and those state sponsored
'Catholic' priests are not within apostolic succession.

Not to mention the state sponsored 'priests' give pro-abortion speeches ... which
is definately NOT within the Catholic church framework but IS within the
communist government's agenda.

posted by FlyersFan

Catholicism isn't the prevailing religion in China, however the communist government definitely has banned real Roman Catholicism. [Edited by Don W]

Maybe China has historic reasons to be wary of the RCC?

Q. Members of what religious order founded by Ignatius Loyola STOLE the silkworms from China and took them to Rome?

Originally posted by donwhite
Members of what religious order founded by Ignatius Loyola STOLE the silkworms from China and took them to Rome?

Got anything more recent? This is the year 2006. People should be able to be
ordained by their church and then preach the bible and sacred tradition without
fear of being thrown in prison and/or sent into slave labor and/or killed.

The Catholic Church isn't what it was 1000 years ago. Most Catholics don't even
listen to what Rome says anymore. But people should be allowed to worship
in a true Catholic manner if they wish.

I dont know how we go from talking about Castro right to Silk Worms.

This is nuts.

I can only assume that those who think Castro is just swell, are not as well educated as they think they are.

Silk worms???

www.upi.com...

For those who are interested .. or for those who believe in these things .. Castro's
deadly reign was predicted. It is also predicted that at the end of his reign
freedom will come to Cuba.

posted by FlyersFan

For those who are interested . . or who believe in these things . . Castro's reign was predicted. It is also predicted that at the end of his reign freedom will come to Cuba. [Edited by Don W]

UPI “ . . a legend Cuba's patron saint predicted the death of a terrible ruler in the fourth decade of his reign. Stories are making the rounds on the Internet - with curious but expected variations - the Miami Herald said Saturday. The legend begins in the 1850s and goes like this: A Spanish priest, San Antonio María Claret became archbishop of Santiago de Cuba, coincidentally (#1) Castro's home province. While riding his horse through Sierra Maestra - also coincidentally Castro's mountain rebel stronghold in the mid-1950s (#2) - he saw La Virgen de la Caridad del Cobre in a vision. She relayed to him the future of Cuba in the hands of a leader that resembled Castro - long hair, a beard, a uniform, bearing weapons with followers who look just like him(#3). He would promise reforms to the Cuban people but betray, imprison, and inflict them with great pain and heartache (#4).

Claret said the virgin told him the ruler would rule for four decades (#5), and Cuba would be devastated during this time. However, the young man would grow old and die (#6) -- and Cuba would be free (#7).”[Edited by Don W]

Hokum, F/F, pure invention. Seven coincidences in a row? Ha! Patently self-serving. More suitable for elementary school. This stuff is just like the Nostradamus stuff - AFTER the fact. And then available only to the initiate. When the Virgin tells me what stock to buy tomorrow, I’ll become a believer. But If it makes you feel good . .


[edit on 8/6/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
Hokum, F/F, pure invention.

It's entirely possible that it's invention. It's also entirely possible that it's true and
that as time has gone by the prophecy has gotten messed with. As I said, I was
putting it out for those who are interested and/or those who believe in these
things.

I do believe in these sometimes ... and sometimes I don't. I have no opinion on
this one either way.

posted by FlyersFan
It's possible it is invention. It's also possible that it is true and
as time has gone by the prophecy has gotten messed with. As I said . . I do believe in these sometimes . . and sometimes I don't . . “ [Edited by Don W]

It would help if someone had a copy of the Santiago Times for 1850, wherein reporting the Archbishop had recounted the story, perhaps in amazement and with wonderment of what it meant, since Cuba was under the Most Catholic King of Spain at that time. Hmm? Freedom of Religion ought not to be taken as to give license to be fooled. Who said if it quacks like a duck, if it walks like a duck . . . . ?” I’m curious why the Virgin didn’t just say, “A man named Fidel Castro Ruz will . . . “ What is gained by telling half the story? Hmm? Is God the author of confusion?



[edit on 8/6/2006 by donwhite]

DonWhite,

...Is Fidel Castro.

'nuff said.