Hezbollywood. Was the Qana collapse staged?

Unfortunately all kinds of forums and blogs are so flooded by this particular disinformation attack, that my post is simply not even going to make a dent.

But anyways, here's my take on yet another video released by "Hezbollywood disinformation productions."

This is what I'm going to do. I will analyze the video, but will leave the actual investigating up to the ATS members.

First a question. Would a place such as "YouTube" be used as a perfect source to plant disinformation with out ANY responsibility what so ever since it's not an official source? I urge ATS member to look into that.

Then let's try to locate the actual broadcast.

The only references to NDRs "Zapp magazine" video found are on blogs which started and "coined" the whole "Hezbollywood" label.

One, the EU referendum is a funded propaganda outlet which literally PLANTS blogs created by their own staff and simply ERASES any post which contradicts, refutes or challenges their point of view.

Naturally factual proof of their activities are available upon request, but only for the purposes of a serious investigation.

freeandjustice.blogspot.com... is just a mirror of EU ref.

www.freerepublic.com... - along same lines.

Here's the web site of the ACTUAL "Zapp magazine"

www.zapp.dk...

Please help to out find the ORIGINAL video, or any mention of it.

Then let's move to NDR TV and the broadcast of the program- www3.ndr.de...

Dig around, let's find something pertaining to Zapp Magazine program on Qana.

This one is empty - www.overseatv.com...

I looked here - www3.ndr.de..., and could not find anything, so once again, help would appreciated. Maybe it's a different NDR-TV, could be that, who knows.

Now to the video at hand.

First pay attention to the VERY first frame of the video.

Again use fallacyfiles.org, because the very first statement is a FALLACY. (aka BS)

Now let's review the video given that we don't speak German.

Naturally the opening statement already makes up the viewers minds on how to perceive the point of view presented.

Right after the text, the video HARD CUTS right to NDR video with VO starting on a half a word. (1:460

This is where we need a German speaker, to confirm that the ADDED subtitles are correctly translating the VO. As of now, we don't know that, because the video has already been altered with any announcement of the fact.

Then we are shown a newspaper where the same guy is shown from 10 years ago, doing exactly the same thing, in exactly the same place, Qana.

The interesting thing, is that only now I learned that Qana was bombed by Israelis 10 years ago! And that apparently this is not the first time Qana has been bombed by IDF, and that children have been killed 10 years ago just as they are now.

Now I'll stretch things out a bit. Now we have a fact that Qana was bombed 10 years ago just as it was now, the same guy was there doing EXACTLY the same thing, and is represented as a cruel director of a show put up for the media.

As I previously asked, what other works has he done? Considering that as of now, his career spans at least a decade, and considering the INCREDIBLE amount of coverage Middle East gets, are there other instances of the famous "Green helmet" guy, or is it only limited to Qana?

Because it is only in Qana, and if the "GHG" only does work in Qana, it's not much of a career for him considering that he gets the gig once in a decade.

Could it be that he ACTUALLY works there? Was he interviewed? What is his IDENTITY? I'm sure that his real name is not a "Green helmet guy". Does he live in Qana? If not, where does he live?

These are the BASIC questions which are REQUIRED to be answered BEFORE presenting a news report. Those are the rules.

Again, not a single "outlet" pushing this Qana travesty has included such information in their accusations.

We don't know who that guy is! We don't know what his OFFICIAL POSITION is!

Other video stuff is useless. Helmet in hand, not in hand. Helmet in hand he was not lifting anything, helmet on the head he was lifting. Where's the smoking gun in that? What, because he didn't want to put his helmet on the ground his a director?

"Short conversation with a civilian"

Really, who is the civilian? Where are the parent of the dead child? Could it be that the father is talking to the "GHG"? We don;'t know that! We are only told to ASSUME and ACCEPT what we are told.

"The demand -Keep on filming!" - Did anybody catch his lips move? Him saying anything? Or how about a SOT, (broadcast term -sound on tape) to actually AIR his spoken words? Nope, we don't get the standards of journalism here either. What we do get, is the slow mo of the "GHG" walking buy and shaking his finger.

I for one did not see him saying anything.

No directions to shot again, nothing. The entire SCENE was created by SLOWING down the footage, INSERTING the VOICE OVER which INSTRUCTS us what to make out of it. OK then, I for one prefer to do my own thinking.

Then we SOFT FADE (thus breaking the continuity line) to another scene.

We don't know how much time passed between the scenes, we don't know what happens in that time frame.

The child was taken out of the ambulance, set on the grown, and the "GHG" does puts the helmet back on.

The child was transferred to what in America is called gurney, not a "lifter".

Did anybody notice that the one that they are transferring the child has wheel, rails and most importantly for transportation- BELTS, while the other one is just s flat fabric military gurney.

This is go "Wait a minute, there are two entirely different gurneys (not "lifter") involved here, and immediately go to the first scene with the ambulance, TC 1:47, to ANALYZE the footage on the basis of this NEW information.

A RED wheeled gurney is take out of the ambulance, and a GREEN fabric one is put in. So let's analyze this just a little bit.

The RED gurney with wheels rail and belts, MUST be the one which came WITH the ambulance, and the GREEN fabric one did NOT.

So in TC 1:47, the EMPTY RED gurney was taken out, and the LOADED GREEN one put in.

Then in the same TC 1:47, the unknown civilian tells something to the "GHG". Could it be a concert like "Hey, would the body bounce around in there whit out being secured?"

Then the "GHG" might realize that a go "Oh yeah!" Shakes his finger, "That's right, the GREEN fabric gurneys DON"T have SECURING BELTS", then he twist his hand as if gesturing "We going to have to SWITCH the gurneys!".

After the soft fade the GREEN gurney is taken out and put on the ground, "GHG" puts on his helmet, which can be taken as habit if he is actually worked for TEN years, and CLEARLY prepares the BELTS of the RED gurney.

The body is transferred form the UNSECURED GREEN fabric gurney, to SECURED RED wheeled gurney with BELTS. The blanket is pulled away from the child and the child WAS in fact displayed for the cameras. The blanket is tucked back in, and the video ends with another hard cut.

Things are not as simple as what unscrupulous and UNETHICAL pseudo-journalist want us to believe, but since the child WAS displayed for the cameras, let's look into that as well.

Considering that most of Americans simply have not encountered violence on the scale of armed conflict, most are simply psychologically unprepared for scenes of REAL LIFE violence, and NOT scripted MOVIE violence.

It is a fact of human nature that when an atrocity is committed against , the results of such atrocity IS SHOWN TO THE MEDIA.

Start a search on ANY crimes against humanity committed and take a look at the pattern of how dead bodies are HELD up and PRESENTED for the MEDIA to DOCUMENT it as a HISTORICAL fact.

And now we get to the same age old hypocrisy at play here. When its about ANY regime not to liking of the Colonial powers, such cries for DOCUMENTATION of crimes against humanity are labeled a sick theater of deceit orchestrated only to gain sympathy of the civilized world.

Now that is a truly sick position of unbelievable hypocrisy. It happens when people simply accept that their own media lies to them as standard practice, and the only form of "fun" journalism is sensationalist media.

Does this makes things clear enough I hope?

OK then, if not satisfied with my analysis, please feel free to locate the ORIGINAL broadcast in question, and we can pick it up from there.

Cheerio friends.

I'll give you an "A" for effort in your interptation of the video.

That you don't know that Mr. Green helmet has been involved in other "photo ops" of bombings and the like is rather strange given your level of detail research into this topic. He has been involved in other events this time around north of Tyre if memory serves me correct, and in the Israeli shelling of Quana a decade ago.
Wouldn't the Red Crescent society in Lebanon have a list of people so we could find out his identity???? Especially since he seems to be so photogenic at such bad events. Isn't it strange we only see him multiple times but not the "emergency crew" he would most probably be associated with if he were a member of any rescue and recovery team? Maybe he doesn't work for them? Who does he work for then?

As for the video, it is described as an outake of things done by a German team. Hopefully the translating will happen but the pictures speak all that is necessary. Don't you think they would have removed the child to the correct stretcher in before putting it in the ambulance? If you have seen some other pictures of killed civilians in ambulances in Lebanon lately you will notice things like open windows in the back that convientely give a view of the dead person, making for a gruesome but "great" photo shot. Even in the magazine picture of Green helmet man from 10 years ago look how he holds the baby. Why that way? Wouldn't you cradle an even dead child rather that hold it up like Simba from the Lion King? What about multiple people carrying around the same dead children in some sort of parade for the press? What about fresh clean stuffed animals found in bombed out buildings where they are the only things free from the gray dust that surrounds everything?
Lots of questions I know.


I know the events were started by attacks by Israel but there should be no denying as well that certain elements of people (my guess Hezbollah) take these events and make them into a photo journalist circus. Bad enough children died in these events, let alone to have them be paraded around and handled in such a shabby manner. Truely sad on both accounts. No wonder the Middle east is so messed up.

I'll give you an "A" for effort in your interptation of the video.

I'm all exited.

That you don't know that Mr. Green helmet has been involved in other "photo ops" of bombings and the like is rather strange given your level of detail research into this topic. He has been involved in other events this time around north of Tyre if memory serves me correct, and in the Israeli shelling of Quana a decade ago.

Well that is what you ASSUME pavil. My evaluation of the video is based ONLY on the information provided BY the video.

Here's a question, if Mr. Green helmet is SO well known and obviously gets around all over the place, WHAT IS HIS NAME?

How come NOBODY EVER asked such a BASIC question?

Wouldn't the Red Crescent society in Lebanon have a list of people so we could find out his identity???? Especially since he seems to be so photogenic at such bad events. Isn't it strange we only see him multiple times but not the "emergency crew" he would most probably be associated with if he were a member of any rescue and recovery team? Maybe he doesn't work for them? Who does he work for then?

All are VERY good questions, and not surprisingly NONE of them are addressed in ANY of the Hezbollywood related sources.

Why don you pavil find all that out and share the FACTUAL information with us. That would be more production rather then raising questions for the sole purpose of creating DOUBT.

As for the video, it is described as an outake of things done by a German team. Hopefully the translating will happen but the pictures speak all that is necessary. Don't you think they would have removed the child to the correct stretcher in before putting it in the ambulance?.

Pavil, the basic reason behind my evaluation of the video is to show the method of analysis, or a way of asking basic questions.

What do YOU consider is a proper way of loading a child's corpse into the ambulance?

Did you notice that the stretcher was NOT carried by the Green helmet?

Simple stuff here man, simple stuff.

If you have seen some other pictures of killed civilians in ambulances in Lebanon lately you will notice things like open windows in the back that convientely give a view of the dead person, making for a gruesome but "great" photo shot.

Are you kidding me? So they purposefully opened windows to show what is inside the van, and you know for a FACT that its their motivation?

You know, window also work very well to let the AIR circulate. Could have they opened the windows to cool down the van? What if the stench of death from all the bodies they have transported is overwhelming, and that's why the opened the windows?

You see what I'm getting at? It's called REASONING, or the natural enemy of media hype. Call it an anti-spin mechanism.

Even in the magazine picture of Green helmet man from 10 years ago look how he holds the baby. Why that way? Wouldn't you cradle an even dead child rather that hold it up like Simba from the Lion King?

I see that you are using some rather similar analogies to the Hezbollywood uses.

Mr. pavil, please enlighten us, what is the "proper" way of holding a dead child? Have you ever held a dead child?

Until you do, you have NOTHING to argue, compare, or comment on when it comes to holding dead children.

What about multiple people carrying around the same dead children in some sort of parade for the press?

I already addressed that issue before, what propaganda designers label as "parading" the dead has is in the realm of anthropology.

Feel free to explore the NATURAL human instincts when it comes to mourning death and displaying outrage of injustice.

Some general links on the topic for you;
www.jewfaq.org...
news.bbc.co.uk...
www.greenleft.org.au...
www.ualberta.ca...
www.festivalofthedead.com...

I hope you've noticed the progression of the links nature. Enjoy.

What about fresh clean stuffed animals found in bombed out buildings where they are the only things free from the gray dust that surrounds everything?
Lots of questions I know.

That is a good question, and in reality it actually can be both. Shock wave dynamics do allow for delicate items being thrown out to a great distance while keeping their pristine condition.

That depends on how far from the epicenter of the detonation the item was originally located.

The complete absence of dust is explained simply. The item landed on PREVIOUSLY bombed structure, while the dust cloud was BLOWN in the opposite direction by WIND.

Look into industrial controlled demolition videos, and you'll for your self see how various object are REGULARLY thrown out of the dust cloud with out being touched by the explosion or covered by the dust cloud.

Those are simple every day FACTS.

On the other hand, it is entirely possible that the items were in fact POSITION by unscrupulous photojournalists.

What is necessary to establish in such a case, is the MOTIVATIONAL factors behind such action.

Who were those photographers? What is the record of their carrier? How long id their carrier? Are they politically motivated? And so forth.

Until that side of the equation is presented, as it stands PHYSICS dictate that all those furry toys have simply been blown OUT of the buildings by the shock wave of the explosion.

When ordinance explodes in one side of the building for example, the shock wave creates over pressure and blows everything out the opening on the other side of the building. Simple as that.

I know the events were started by attacks by Israel but there should be no denying as well that certain elements of people (my guess Hezbollah) take these events and make them into a photo journalist circus.

I agree here absolutely, and once again please visit this page to make up your own mind about the issue;

www.counterpunch.org...

Then weigh all the of the elements involved. Is it rational to jeopardize the credibility of events taking place by clear, crude and obvious fakes, while the city is being bombed to ground and thousands of people are dying?

What is the point of making stuff up when REALITY is literally EXPLODING all over the place?

Another good question.

Bad enough children died in these events, let alone to have them be paraded around and handled in such a shabby manner. Truly sad on both accounts. No wonder the Middle east is so messed up.

Well pavil, its THEIR dead children "to parade".

When US/UK/Israeli children are killed we get press conferences, full coverage, entire days dedicated for burial processions, in depth and endless interviews with family's of the victims, etc.

When some other people die somewhere, screw them, they're just monkey like cruel barbarians anyway, let'em die, who cares, and when gruesome videos reach the masses SMEAR campaigns are locked and loaded to erase the very fact of it happening at all and to ease any possible feeling of guilt which may arise.

That's how it works, and that I knew from personal and professional experience, not assumptions, opinions, or what ifs.

It's how it's done.

Originally posted by iskander
Why don you pavil find all that out and share the FACTUAL information with us. That would be more production rather then raising questions for the sole purpose of creating DOUBT.

The FACT that no one seems to know his name raises the question. Not me mentioning it. The FACT that no seems to know what organization he belongs to creates the DOUBT, again not me.

If you have seen some other pictures of killed civilians in ambulances in Lebanon lately you will notice things like open windows in the back that convientely give a view of the dead person, making for a gruesome but "great" photo shot.

Are you kidding me? So they purposefully opened windows to show what is inside the van, and you know for a FACT that its their motivation?

You know, window also work very well to let the AIR circulate. Could have they opened the windows to cool down the van? What if the stench of death from all the bodies they have transported is overwhelming, and that's why the opened the windows?

Plainly if there is a deceased person in the back of an ambulance and nothing can be done to revive them, shouldn't they at least be covered with a sheet? That is not what we see in some of these pictures even when there is plenty of time to cover them. Clearly they are left uncovered in the back of an ambulance with the window open where it just so happens that photographers on the outside can get one last "great emotional" shot of the recently deceased person. I'm sure you will explain this away as mere unintentional actions on supposed trained rescue/ambulance workers. To me they are staging a photo op for maximum impact.

As for the stuffed animals, please take a look at these photos in this sequence. www.tampabayprimer.org... Art&art=1443

You will probably state that the man is collecting the toys and placing them in the suitcase rather than taking them out of the suitcase and placing them in the rubble for "touching photos". Even if he was putting the toys in the suitcase, where is the teletubbie and Minnie Mouse in the suitcase when he is placing the doll in (or out) of the suitcase?

Just so I get this right , are you are stating that even though the only things we see in the photo other than the toys are "pieces" of objects covered in strewn heavy debris, a suitcase full of toys which appear in certain points in the carnage all escape relatively dust free and free from damage, only to be photographed by Reuters? On top of that, the man's house has been supposedly destroyed and the only thing he takes out in a suitcase are toys? Guess I'm just more cynical.

It doesnt matter how much hezbollah propaganda you expose the hatred for the US and Israel is deep rooted on this board.

you will find many examples of hatred and blatant lies about the US.

And some of what is said about Israel makes it pretty clear to me why Israel is in palestine and not in europe. I guess hate runs deep.

Anyway Hezbollah is well aware they have the hearts and minds of some people in western countries. Thats why they try so hard at propaganda....because it works on the ignorant ones.

peace....

Pavil, I certainly hope that you have genuine desire to establish the facts and do not have an agenda.

he FACT that no one seems to know his name raises the question. Not me mentioning it. The FACT that no seems to know what organization he belongs to creates the DOUBT, again not me.

That is correct. What is a clear fact though, is that when accusations are being made with out any supporting facts, it's called mud slinging.

Self respecting people do not accuse others with out presenting FACTS. Considering that the "Hezbollywood" smear campaign is in fact completely groundless and does not present ANY factual information is clearly obvious.

If the Green helmet person is in fact a part of Lebanese propaganda office, then such accusations HAVE to be based on FACTS gathered after THOROUGH investigation. None of which took place.

Plainly if there is a deceased person in the back of an ambulance and nothing can be done to revive them, shouldn't they at least be covered with a sheet? That is not what we see in some of these pictures even when there is plenty of time to cover them. Clearly they are left uncovered in the back of an ambulance with the window open where it just so happens that photographers on the outside can get one last "great emotional" shot of the recently deceased person. I'm sure you will explain this away as mere unintentional actions on supposed trained rescue/ambulance workers. To me they are staging a photo op for maximum impact.

All biased assumptions. If there is a guideline somewhere which instruct on the "proper" method of transporting bodies, then we can evaluate what is proper and what is not.

This part though is very clear - "it just so happens that photographers on the outside can get one last "great emotional" shot of the recently deceased person. I'm sure you will explain this away as mere unintentional actions on supposed trained rescue/ambulance workers. To me they are staging a photo op for maximum impact"

Pavil, such wording EXACTLY mirrors the tone of the "Hezbollywood" psyop.

"great emotion" in quotations, and the "supposed trained rescue/ambulance workers".

You are making an accusation with out presenting facts. Do you know the rescue/ambulance workers identities? With having such basic facts you can not imply absolutely ANYTHING, yet you do.

ATS forums = Deny ignorance. Work on that.

As for the stuffed animals, please take a look at these photos in this sequence. www.tampabayprimer.org... Art&art=1443

You will probably state that the man is collecting the toys and placing them in the suitcase rather than taking them out of the suitcase and placing them in the rubble for "touching photos".

Absolutely not. Just as I always do, I'll just analyze given information with basic common sense.

There are three photos taken on the same location. None of the have a time stamp, so we can not establish the time line.

The last photo posted is cropped while the first 2 are not.

What we can establish even with out time stamps, is the the last photo was take at a different time frame from the first 2.

The very first picture clearly shows the shadow line over the busted concrete pillar, while the last picture shows no shadow lines at all.

The second pictures of the man holding the toys shoes a shadow directly below his head, indicating a that the time is around noon.

The 3rd picture could have been take before noon, or after, we don't know that.

Stepping away from the analysis of the photos, we jump straight for the obvious.

If in fact the photos were staged, why would the perpetration of such deceit be documented?

What makes sense about taking pictures of the alleged disinformation act? Why have the perpetrator POSE for the camera, and clearly displaying the toys?

The 2nd photo shows the man holding the toys, and judging by his posture, body position and its balance, he is standing, NOT walking, thus clearly posing for the camera.

Any thoughts on why would the perpetrators of this alleged deceit purposefully record their actions?

Isn't something you'd see on "American dumbest criminals"? You know, kind of like shooting your self in the foot?

Even if he was putting the toys in the suitcase, where is the teletubbie and Minnie Mouse in the suitcase when he is placing the doll in (or out) of the suitcase?

With out the time line, we simply can NOT tell.

Could the toys be of his children? Could he be one of the ex residents of bombed out buildings? Who is that man? We don't know because nobody cared to present such ABSOLUTELY VITAL information, yet the accusations are repeatedly made.

Just so I get this right , are you are stating that even though the only things we see in the photo other than the toys are "pieces" of objects covered in strewn heavy debris, a suitcase full of toys which appear in certain points in the carnage all escape relatively dust free and free from damage, only to be photographed by Reuters?

I beg your pardon? I do not recall stating anything about these photos prior to you posting them. As to the carnage and the suitcase, is it possible that the suitcase was BORROWED from one of the neighbors to collect the toys? We don't know that do we? And we already established that making claims with out facts IS DECEIT. Where are the original Reuters pictures by the way? Because I'm sure that they will have a time stamp.

On top of that, the man's house has been supposedly destroyed and the only thing he takes out in a suitcase are toys? Guess I'm just more cynical.

LOL! Pavil, are you serious? Are you telling me that you don't see the rubble the man is standing in? I can only say that yes, that is cynical at least.

Now we get to what is usually done at the very beginning, establishing the source. In this case it's "PRIMER".

PRIMER is a part of group of pro-Israel web sites which engage in smear campaigns.

Pro-Israel sites;

www.mylinkspage.com...

More here;

www.alanstein.com...

More here;

The interview below with Alan Stein is from the Connecticut Jewish Ledger.ааStein leads a group called PRIMER-CT (see www.primerct.org...) which boasts of generating letters pressuring media.ааThey engage in attempts to silence free speech not only in the media but also at universities and colleges in CT as evident from their 2004 report posted on their website (e.g. their letters to CCSU, they recently removed from their site some "analysis" action calls which now they send to selected and verified "subscribers").ааThere are dozens (perhaps more) of such groups like MEMRI, CAMERA, HONESTREPORTING, and PRIMER which have the money and staff to spread what they call Hasbara (Hebrew for PR) to distort reality and intimidate and pressure people.ааThe Palestine Right to Return Coalition (Al-Awda.org) which Stein attacks has a very different mission and goals.аа

Congressman Paul Findley's book "The Dare to Speak Out" explains many of these tactics of those who tried to suppress anyone who starts to tell the truth about US disastrous foreign policy in support of Israeli aparthied, occupation, and ethnic cleansing.ааHe also argues that the huge resources they put in this are needed because they are trying to suppress the truth; suppressing the truth needs far more resources and money.ааI post this interview and their links because, in some parts, it reveals how they work despite the distortions and lies in other parts.а

For detailed studies of the fabrications of groups like CAMERA and MEMRI, visit

qumsiyeh.org...

Clear examples of political agitation on campuses;

www.campus-watch.org...

www.campus-watch.org...

pavil, the list goes on and we can do this all day.

Such "sources" are simple the mount piece of ADL and pro-Israel lobby. If you disagree, please feel free to find the sources of funding for all such groups, and share it with all of us.

If you in fact do not have an agenda, considering the abundance of information provided, by now you should be able to see how things are for your self.

Keeping my fingers crossed



[edit on 26-8-2006 by iskander]

I'll address this one as well.

It doesnt matter how much hezbollah propaganda you expose the hatred for the US and Israel is deep rooted on this board.

XphilesPhan, instead of making generalized accusations, please stay on the topic of this particular thread.

you will find many examples of hatred and blatant lies about the US.

Please base you accusations and point out the "blatant lies about the US" in this thread.

And some of what is said about Israel makes it pretty clear to me why Israel is in palestine and not in europe. I guess hate runs deep.

You are correct, Israel IS in Palestine. We don't preach hate here, "but denying ignorance", so stay with the program.

Anyway Hezbollah is well aware they have the hearts and minds of some people in western countries.

What exactly do you base that statement on? Do you have statistics at hand? Results of polls maybe? Share them with us.

Thats why they try so hard at propaganda....because it works on the ignorant ones.

Now you are accusing all people who REASON of being ignorant. Not very considerate of you. Please list sources of Palestinian propaganda aimed at the Western world, I will list the pro-Zionist propaganda sources, and then we can compare what exactly is the media exposure share pro-Zionist propaganda enjoyes over Palestinian.

I'll start, FOX. Feel free to pick it up from here.

If you don't care to do so, logically your statements are nothing more but biased and unsubstantiated opinions, and considering the "deny ignorance" nature of this forum, they simply do not have a place here.

Better yet XphilesPhan, since you are a fan of Xfiles, here's a task for you.

In the show Moulder and Skully are FBI agents that INVESTIGATE various paranormal and extraterrestrial accuracies.

Why don't you investigate the reason behind Israels attack on Lebanon?

Western media reported that Israels decision to declare war on Lebanon was do to the kidnappings of IDF solders by Hezbollah.

What was not reported by the Western media, is that the soldiers in question were not active duty IDF soldiers bur out of uniform reservists who were captured by Hezbollah on Lebanese territory.

I'm sure you know that Hezbollah is a militia, and one of their civic duties is to police the cities and apprehend criminals.

Then investigate the state supported drug trafficking from Israel to Lebanon, and particularly the complete unwillingness of Israels justice system to prosecute well known Israeli drug traffickers.

When you compile the data, please share it with all of us, I'm sure everybody will appreciate your investigative efforts.

Quoting not working on your latest post for some reason.

No agenda here, I would like to find out the truth as well. Others have tried to look for more information on the events we are discussing but without finding out much one way or the other. I myself do not have the time nor honestly the desire to take investigating upon myself. As with all of us, we seem to find the facts that we want, you seem to have the desire to find out more information regarding these pictures. Could you research the identity of GHM for instance? Without facts you are correct, all we have is conjecture and theories especially with ambigious pictures being taken.

As to the photos with the toys, first off they are photos of the AP and Reuters and have been found together on multiple websites not just the one I linked. To discredit the photos outright because they are found on a certain website that didn't produce the photos in the first place is looking at the finger pointing at the moon.

Yes I too find it totally crazy that we never have much documentation of any of these photos, ie names for example. We are left with theories when these things appear, not facts. That he was posing/caught in the photos is not damming nor surprising to me. That we can't see two of the three toys he had in his hand when he is near the suitcase is cause for speculation though. If he is picking up toys, and in one photo he has all three, doesn't it make sense that when he is by the suitcase supposedly placing toys in, why don't see two of them already in the case when the third is still in his hand? That strikes me as odd, how about you?

I beg your pardon? I do not recall stating anything about these photos prior to you posting them

In a previous post you mentioned that it is possible that stuffed animals and toys could be blown into bombed out areas and be realtively unscathed or dirty. Sorry for directly linking that thought to these pictures.

And a closing thought. If Hezbollah is such a sophisticated group as seems evidenced, would not it be a great idea for them to have "free lance photgraphers" in Lebanon either sympathetic or working for them submit photos to the Major news organziations in hopes of getting them published worldwide, getting their "view" out. To me, I am skeptical, something smells fishy.

As with all of us, we seem to find the facts that we want, you seem to have the desire to find out more information regarding these pictures. Could you research the identity of GHM for instance? Without facts you are correct, all we have is conjecture and theories especially with ambigious pictures being taken.

I think I've done more then enough to make a point. Look at all the text I typed, all the links I've provided. I'm not on any crusade here, I was not the one making/repeating unsupported allegations, I'm just pitching in my 2 cents on the obvious fallacies. Lets see if XphilesPhan can come up with something.

As to the photos with the toys, first off they are photos of the AP and Reuters and have been found together on multiple websites not just the one I linked. To discredit the photos outright because they are found on a certain website that didn't produce the photos in the first place is looking at the finger pointing at the moon.

That is correct, yet we also have to consider the context.

Just as this article - www.counterpunch.org...

I discredit the photos on the grounds of common sense. I for one simply do not see the completely anonymous perpetrators of the allegedly staged toy scene documenting the deception while its being orchestrated. Anybody has to be a special type of self destructive idiot with a initial desire of being cough to be posing with the evidence of the crime.

Yes I too find it totally crazy that we never have much documentation of any of these photos, ie names for example. We are left with theories when these things appear, not facts. That he was posing/caught in the photos is not damming nor surprising to me. That we can't see two of the three toys he had in his hand when he is near the suitcase is cause for speculation though. If he is picking up toys, and in one photo he has all three, doesn't it make sense that when he is by the suitcase supposedly placing toys in, why don't see two of them already in the case when the third is still in his hand? That strikes me as odd, how about you?

pavil those are the basis of disinformation and agitation in general. The point is, even if every single allegation of news manufactured by Lebanese media is proved to be true, the fact that Israel mounted a covert disinformation campaign with out presenting any supporting facts, it by default simply discredits Israel just as much.

With out knowing the photographer and identity of the man in the shot I can't say what was going on there. What is for certain is that the time of the picture with the toys in the rubble is different from the time in the pictures with the man.

And a closing thought. If Hezbollah is such a sophisticated group as seems evidenced, would not it be a great idea for them to have "free lance photographers" in Lebanon either sympathetic or working for them submit photos to the Major news organizations in hopes of getting them published worldwide, getting their "view" out. To me, I am skeptical, something smells fishy.

Freelance photogs are by every single agency out there as standard practice. Every news media outlet uses freelancers. It's just the way the business is set up, it's not just Hezbollah.

That is precisely why it would be so easy to plant a fake to influence the opinions or to discredit the stories coming out from any given region.

It's called a "plant" to "flip". The most effective way to discredit a fact, is by manufacturing a facsimile out actual facts.

It's like discrediting a document for example. It only takes one to duplicate the original document in a apparent manner, and the document is automatically labeled as a fake, even though it contains factual information.

Just as with the supposedly doctored photos of Lebanon bombing. Add completely unnecessary and obviously photoshoped smoke and copy a few flares, and the entire body of work is discredited, and an entire carrier is sabotaged.

To put it even simpler, think of it this way. Lets say a kid did his home work, but in order to sabotage him, another student intercepts the working before submission to the teacher, and has his sister copy the entire text but in her hand writing. When the sister copies the entire work, the original is switch with the facsimile and then submitted to the teacher.

The teacher looks at the home work, sees that the name does not match the hand writing he recognizes, and fails the student on the grounds of cheating.

How does that look to you? Kind of like hiding the books in med school library, doesn't it?

You see pavil, all these tricks are incredibly simple, and are traced directly to a type of "competitive" behavior exhibited by certain people from a very young age.

Once one is familiar with such obvious, devious and elementary tricks, it is not at all hard to recognize them for what they are right away.

You see it's right here when a whole lot of people with neutral position on this particular topic flinch and think "hey dammit, wait a minute, I know exactly what he's talking about, and I was screwed just like that a whole bunch of times, so what is going on here again?"

While others stretch their face in a wicked smile and think "damn that was smooth when I had that guy kicked out".

It's in the "goes around comes around" category, and can be milked only so much, you see.

In America for example, even with all the media control and public opinion brain washing, that particular credit is all tapped out. Even though people don't talked about being screwed because it's considered as a sing of weakness, they all know EXACTLY how it is, and just waiting for the time of some serious payback.

Social psycho-dynamics and inter-group relations my a$$.

To me, I am skeptical, something smells fishy.

Couldn't agree with you more pavil

By the way, just in, when "switching" the home doesn't work, they tell their daddies, or do something like this;

GAZA CITY, Gaza (AP) -- Two missiles fired by Israeli aircraft early Sunday morning hit an armored car belonging to the Reuters news agency, moderately wounding two television cameramen and three bystanders, Palestinian witnesses and hospital officials said.

www.cnn.com...

I guess the only mishap here is that Reuters armored car was not occupied when it was struck, but the message is pretty clear, isn't it?

edit: mistake

[edit on 26-8-2006 by iskander]

Here's another example of Hezbollywood. ZombieTime details the (obviously?) flawed logic behind a supposed Israeli air strike on a Red Cross ambulance. The evidence presented does appear to show yet another case of fraud. Read the article and make up your mind for yourself. The "missile hole" appears to be nothing more than a ventilation hole with the cap removed. Duh!

How the Media Legitimized an Anti-Israel Hoax and Changed the Course of a War
On the night of July 23, 2006, an Israeli aircraft intentionally fired missiles at and struck two Lebanese Red Cross ambulances performing rescue operations, causing huge explosions that injured everyone inside the vehicles. Or so says the global media, including Time magazine, the BBC, the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times and thousands of other outlets around the world. If true, the incident would have been an egregious and indefensible violation of the Geneva Convention, and would constitute a war crime committed by the state of Israel.

But there's one problem: It never happened.

Visit source for full article

On a side note there's now a movie on YouTube that pokes fun at all of the incidents that have been mentioned in this thread. It actually a bit funny, so check it out no matter what side of the fence you're on in this discussion.

All Your Fakes Are Belong to Us (Video) That's right, just like the original Internet hit.

I read that article before and was almost convinced.

But if you look at the pictures of the Lebanon ambulance and the press truck hit in Gaza this week (which the Israelis do not deny hitting BTW), the damage is very similar. A vehicle hit by a Hellfire is going to show a lot less damage than on hit with a Maverick or 500lb LGB.

As far as the rust, one or two nights of rain could accomplish this, exposed raw steel rusts very quickly.

Frankly neither Israel hitting an ambulance or Hezbollah faking Israel hitting an ambulance would surprise me very much.

And I still have yet too see any of the right-wing posters on here address pro-Israeli news fraud, like the so-called "Photos That Shame Hezbollah" that actually showed a bunch of Christian Phalangists operating an AA gun in Beruit and tried to pass it off as Hezbollah.

Originally posted by xmotex
And I still have yet too see any of the right-wing posters on here address pro-Israeli news fraud, like the so-called "Photos That Shame Hezbollah"

I commented on that article in a different thread. You couldn' t tell where or when that was taken. I wasn't convinced that it was anything worth worrying about.

Wow dbates, the "ZombieTime" sire you posted is very interesting.

I don't know who Mr. Zombie actually is, because the entire page simply does not state who he is, what he is, what the whole deal is, it's kind of like, an anonymous web page with opinions and stuff on it.

Kind of like a blog, bit with out the debate.

Visit source for full article

What kind of a source is it exactly?

Even though once in a while I do enjoy taking a trip into the anonymous Internet land, when it comes to debating factual topics, personally I prefer the reality to anonymity.

This is exactly why I draw on information from sources such as these;

Lebanon: Destruction of civilian infrastructure

First-hand information gathered by recent Amnesty International research missions to Lebanon and Israel points to an Israeli policy of deliberate destruction of Lebanese civilian infrastructure during the recent conflict.

Amnesty International - web.amnesty.org...

Table of contents here -

Introduction 1
Deliberate destruction or ‘collateral damage’? 2
International humanitarian law and war crimes 4
The damage to the infrastructure 6

web.amnesty.org...

Human Rights Watch -

"Indiscriminate Bombardment" By Kenneth Roth / Lebanon: Israeli Cluster Munitions Threaten Civilians / Lebanon: Protect Civilians From Unexploded Weapons / U.S.: Deny Israeli Request for Cluster Munitions

-

and so forth; www.hrw.org...

Here's an invaluable source for everything on

Human Rights Research and Education

www.webcom.com...

And here;

International Advocacy Groups and Non-Governmental Organizations (NGO's)

www.webcom.com...

You see dbates, there is a WHOLE world of factual information out there gathered by dedicated professionals with lives, carriers and reputations, so when it comes to anonymous Mr. Zombie with some "creative" story telling, my self being a logical and self respecting citizen, I simply leave such forms of free Internet expression to the virtual realm, and not reality.

P.S. YouTube;

What is YouTube?

YouTube is a place for people to engage in new ways with video by sharing, commenting on, and viewing videos. YouTube originally started as a personal video sharing service, and has grown into an entertainment destination with people watching more than 70 million videos on the site daily.

www.youtube.com...

I SPECIFICALLY emphasize the following; "and has grown into an ENTERTAINMENT destination with people watching more than 70 million videos on the site daily.

I'm glad that your are light hearted enough to bring a certain entertainment value to the thread of such gruesome nature, but personally I prefer sticking to the facts when it comes to reality of human tragedy.

xmotex, good points.

I have to respond to this one.

But if you look at the pictures of the Lebanon ambulance and the press truck hit in Gaza this week (which the Israelis do not deny hitting BTW), the damage is very similar.

Very interesting.

Lets ask our selves a question, what is more devious, falsely claiming that an ambulance was attacked, or putting a hellfire right into the RED CROSS of the ambulance?

That's one heck of a bulls eye there.

I can't help to think of that Apache gunner calling his wife saying,

"Well hun, I did a stellar job today! Put one RIGHT into the cross again! So how's the rug rat?"

edit:spl




[edit on 28-8-2006 by iskander]

Originally posted by iskander
I don't know who Mr. Zombie actually is, because the entire page simply does not state who he is, what he is, what the whole deal is, it's kind of like, an anonymous web page with opinions and stuff on it.

I've never seen the site before today either. It's just information. Like I said, draw your own conclusion and always be skeptical of sources. (As this thread proves)

Originally posted by iskander
I'm glad that your are light hearted enough to bring a certain entertainment value to the thread of such gruesome nature, but personally I prefer sticking to the facts when it comes to reality of human tragedy.

I don't expect that to be used as evidence. It's just a side note that I thought was funny. (and it is)

I've never seen the site before today either. It's just information. Like I said, draw your own conclusion and always be skeptical of sources. (As this thread proves)

dbates, I completely understand that. One more question, considering that the only non-blog source you listed is web.israelinsider.com which is a part of pro-Israel group, do you have any official sources to support allegations made on the blogs?

By the way, I looked into israelinsider.com, interesting stuff.

Israel Insider is published by Koret Communications Ltd., an Internet design and development company based in Tel Aviv, Israel.

web.israelinsider.com...

I checked out the publisher of the insider, the Koret Comm.

Koret communications - www.koret.com...

KC is a new media design boutique developing large scale sites, online applications and social networks for international organizations

The main flash page does list its publications, Israel Insider, Israel21c, Jewsweek, Jewish content, birthright Israel and a lot more.

Koret Communications is a leading provider of strategic and marketing communications services for technology companies.

- Flash, video and other interactive media producers use KC services to round out their own specialized work.

Since 1992, Koret Communications has established itself as Israel's leading provider of English language communication services for the technology and financial sectors, serving over 150 clients, including more than 30 public companies.

KC provides consultancy, creative, and technical services for communication campaigns both offline and online, with a one-stop shop

dbates, what do you think Koret Comm actually does, and what could the "communication campaigns" be? The one-stop shop ones.

Just curios, since you brought it up.

Interesting article:

Possible War Crime: Killing of Tens of Lebanese Civilians in the village of Qana, 30 July 2006

On Sunday, 30 July 2006, the Israeli air force bombed a residential building in the village of Qana, in southern Lebanon , thereby causing the death of tens of Lebanese civilians who were in the building at the time. According to the IDF, multiple rocket attacks had been launched into Israel from this 'area'.

However, information which has since been made public reveals that on the day of the attack no rockets were launched from the village of Qana. It thus appears that the attack constituted a violation of international humanitarian law, and there is reason to suspect that war crimes have been committed by those responsible for the attack. B'Tselem has contacted the Israeli Judge Advocate General demanding that he order a military police investigation into the matter.


The Israeli Center For Human Rights

[edit on 29-8-2006 by Mdv2]

xmotex, good points.

Mdv2, good find, but I found something even more interesting and eye opening.

Please enjoy.

Koret turns out to be a very impressive world wide media publishing network.

And look, it's on Biography channel blog-post! That's some reach isn't it, and all with out even a hint of suspicion from unsuspecting and gullible Americans.

boards.biography.com...

Well, this is rather telling though;

Reuven Koret
is publisher of Israel Insider and CEO of Koret Communications.

I am a Zionist
By Reuven Koret May 13, 2002

I belong to a people who brought the Bible to the world, transmitting the tradition of the Torah, the Ten Commandments, and the idea of One God from generation to generation.

www.israelinsider.com...

This part in particular is my absolute favorite;

I am proud that our country is hated by some of the most vicious, cruel, backward, repressive, terror-supporting dictatorships in the world.

I am proud that the morally vapid governments of Europe, Africa, and Asia, along with the UN in which their majorities rule, have nothing better to do than to condemn us.

I am proud that our strongest ally is the greatest nation in the world, and proud that its people and its elected representatives stand by us and prevent us from isolation and condemnation by lesser nations with weaker moral fiber.

Should I be feeling proud here? I'm not quiet sure. I did get the part about "prevent us from isolation" and the "lesser nations" though. Must be everybody else, all that non-English speaking folk.

Oh It gets better;

And you who read these words, with compassion and understanding and identification -whether you are Jewish or not, Israeli or not -- you are a Zionist, too.

Is this a good time to quote Nelson from Simpson's? Apparently I'm a Zionist and didn't even know it! I was led to this source by following the many trails of propaganda and deceit, and I'm just not sure if fallacy here is in the journey, or in my own denial of my inner-Zionist...

God I'm so confused. How strange it all is.

It's no wonder that literally countless of Koret publishing web sites are repeating exactly the same stuff though, but how do they make the top of Google search list?

Regular stuff like this;

Videos on Palestinian TV fake Israeli soldiers shooting kids and elders

www.talkaboutgovernment.com...

This one is an absolute gem though, ironically because it's from FOX. Who would've though?

DeLay's strong response was one of many expressions of support coming from congressional members, who repeatedly remind voters of the strong U.S.-Israel alliance dating back to Israel's 1948 foundation.

But widespread congressional support is rooted in more than just a long-term relationship. It is traced to the power of the collective Jewish or pro-Israeli lobby, a well-organized, well-funded, extremely active, and extraordinarily connected group, according to political analysts.

"They are very savvy and sophisticated," said Richard Semiatin, a political science professor at American University. "They are extremely knowledgeable and some of the best lobbyists in the country when they get into congressional offices."

www.foxnews.com...

Dang money talks don't it.

So as an advice to all readers, before accepting various stories as news, check out the source first, or one day you just might find out that you are a Zionist with out even knowing it.

btw, is this where people start calling me Mel Gibson as an insult? I hope not.

On the serious note, I'm well aware that my comments can be construed as cynical. I'll make no apologies. I'm not an anti-semite, I'm not pro-Arab, I'm just me, a human animal which at times manages to achieve its human form.

My comments on this issue are only natural, I'm just irritated.

The never ending pro-Israel and anti-Arab propaganda is simply crude, sloppy, unprofessional and irritating.

Any way, the wind of change is on the way.

Israelis people are just a sick and tired of their corrupt government as everybody else.

PM sets up special committee to probe government conduct during war, nixes full state inquiry

www.haaretz.com...

State Comptroller: Don’t need PM’s authorization to probe war

Micha Lindenstrauss says following governments decision to task him with examining home front’s level pf preparedness prior to war ‘the authority to investigate the war in Lebanon is in the hands of the state comptroller; I report only to the Knesset’

www.ynetnews.com...

Olmert accused of cronyism

www.jpost.com...

Political earthquake: A poll published on Friday in the Yedioth Ahrnonoth daily shows that 63 percent of Israelis feel that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert failed in managing the war in Lebanon and should resign.

www.ynetnews.com...

President Moshe Katsav was questioned by detectives at his official residence here for five hours Wednesday over allegations against him of sexual harassment and his claim that the case is an extortion attempt by a former staffer.

www.forbes.com...

Justice Minister Ramon to be tried on indecent assault charges

www.haaretz.com...

PM to be summoned to answer questions on apartment purchase

haaretz.com...

Former employee: President Katsav coerced me into sex

www.haaretz.com...

The list goes on.

I'm sure that Mr. Reuven Koret will not be publishing articles of such nature on his world wide propaganda network, but hey, self respecting people will always find out how thing really are.

Actually, in light of these new development I'll start a new topic with this information, referencing this thread as the starting point which initiated my search.

Cheers.