The absolute truth

thanks yeahright for putting up with my rant.

I understand that freewill.. is what it is. and is not inherently good or evil..but rather what we do with it that makes that determination. (relating back to the absentee landlord remark I made)

I am not even christian.. Though I do accept Chritianity as ONE road to the final destination.. But no more or less than any of the other religions(for the record)

I guess its a good thing I am not god.. cause all of those people that commit some of the most heinous acts would definately NOT be forgiven by me.

As a youth of about 10 I stole.. and even into my early twenties(22) I lied almost habitually... until one day I realized my own hippocracy. Now I am happy to say that I dont lie, cheat, steal, rape, commit adultry, kill, or anything else on the list.
This doesnt make me better than anyone else.. but it does give me the right to complain about those that do...(since I have walked a mile in some of those moccasins(sp?)

Anyway.. thanks again for the patience..(which is still not one of my strong points)

TONE23

This thread is really quite silly.

How can one speak the Absolute Truth?

We can say words like "Love", "Ain", "God", "Truth", etc.

But they are not 'the thing itself' if you will.

"...because whosoever knows, the Word(Christ) gives power to; no one has uttered it, no one will utter it, except the one who has the Word Incarnated."

Responding To Christian Fundamentalism?


"Therefore, no one can recognize the Truth, because no one has ever known it.

"Let us not talk about the Truth. It is better to talk about Alchemy.

"The "I" can die only by transmuting desire into Wisdom and Love.

"The Truth comes to us only when the "I" dies.


- Samael Aun Weor, Chapter 29, The Fundamental notions of Endocrinology and Criminology

As Samael Aun Weor says, the Absolute Truth is the Unknowable from moment-to-moment.

Krishnamurti says that the Truth is not knowable becasue it always the New(Nu or Mu, Emptiness), constantly renewing itself so therefore cannot be emulated.

Anthything known or emulated is not the Absolute Truth, because the known implies the past.

The Absolute Truth is always New.




[edit on 30-7-2006 by Tamahu]

Very legitimate points, indeed, Tamahu~but yet not functional on a day-to-day basis, especially in relation to an internet forum discussion about spirituality, no less!

Would you say, though--in regard to the points you made just prior to my post....that 'absolute truth' is something, then, only purely and truly experienced on a moment-to-moment basis on the purely individual plane?

I think, that no matter what it ends up to be, details and yada yada, that it is going to be GOOD for all and ALL will be included!

But that's just me--you guys probably know the kinds of things I tend to preach, by now...

today I say:

PEACE
LOVE
AND
Klondike BARS for all of us!
That never melt! And have sticks in them, too!

Originally posted by TONE23
Anyway.. thanks again for the patience..(which is still not one of my strong points)

TONE23

Hey, man--I think you're beautiful because you are honest! I think that is priority, above all things--beside love--honesty is the other godly virtue.

When the prodigal son was welcomed back, the others were annoyed that they were faithfull all along but he was treated special.
The Lord loves a sinner who will fall on his knees, whether anyone likes it or not. PRAISE THE LORD.
AND.....God don't make junk!!!

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
Does your avatar have some secret meaning because I can't understand what it is?

What do you mean by being saved? How I see it is this: there is two parallel systems one is black and one is white. One has a god and the other has a god, both have physical and etherial existance.

But there is one catch.. the universe the light shining in the darkness is the good and it is really the creation of existance or thought. The darkness is a lesser form of existance or thought and it WILL NOT survive into the reincarnation of the next universe not whole at least.

In other words there has to be a price for being selfish and getting what you want in your entire existance at the pain and suffering of others otherwise the entire universe would be a sham.

So in a few words... I don't believe you.

I think most of what you said makes sense in your own understandings except the very last line. I may not be able to post responses too much due to having some ISP problem with my service, but daily I have been able to configure my hardware enough to cripple it along in just enough time to make some posts.

My avatar does have meaning, but I will only say that some of it means nothing at all and some of it means something, but I will only share that with the people whom I know well enough to tell them. Either way my avatar isn't anything important in the grand scheme of things and shouldn't concern you or anyone.

To be saved has different meanings for different people, and we are all saved, but how we are saved and what it means afterwards is the mystery for most people, because they usually only include themselves in the bunch and consider everyone else unworthy. The truth is, we are all saved. The difference is believing in the spirit or not and this will determine your level of salvation. Either way, every flesh born being will still have a fleshly body, except the true children of God who will manifest themselves any way they desire.

There is a price for being selfish and that is being eternally controlled and ruled by the sons of God. But do not fear, the sons of God are going to be there to serve the woman.

Originally posted by Panzeroth

Originally posted by ben91069
The murderers, rapists, politicians, thieves, adulterers, idolaters, liars, and just generally what people think are bad people are all going to be saved and we will all live with them on a day to day basis in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Great, release the prisoners! What's the point in punishing people for breaking the laws, or have laws for that matter, if it doesn't matter?

What a load of

And you are without sin Panzeroth? If all sins arent forgiven then you, I, and the rest of the world must be destroyed. There is no other way to judge other than by the truth and not man-made systems of what is bad and what is really really bad.

Originally posted by georgejohn
there is something about the 'throne' that you are sitting on... it doesn't seem to have a solid piece that flips up or are you sitting on it???

Oh dear GJ, it was purely an oversight that I didn't include a seat, but I will surely add that and some other things.

Well, we see our pal 'Tootsie' came trotting in with her big masterpiece of info and 'sun' [mmm, 'sun', maybe a Idol worshiper ] is throwing rocks n 'dung balls' ar poor Queenannie38 ... ohhh annie/tootsie you forgot that She is a MotherHen too !... also that She said[look it up plz] if you really groove Her, that She would take care of you, like a Mother looks after Her only-begotten Son...

You know, since I started to begin understanding your own "parables and tongues" quotes like these make me laugh instead of taking the defensive. Tootsie...what a classic. A man disguised as a woman.....

Originally posted by queenannie38
Very legitimate points, indeed, Tamahu~but yet not functional on a day-to-day basis

In Buddhism the Two Truths are spoken of.

Absolute and relative.

The latter would be the one that's 'functional on a day to day basis'.

And in relation to the Absolute Truth being 'functional on day to day basis'.....

Originally posted by TONE23
If god forgives those types of people then Id rather be in hell.

Your lack of faith caused by your selfish desire to be above sin will gaurantee you will live with those you despise.

I mean really why even try if anything you do gets you saved anyway... why not just go out and commit all of those atrocities at once and continuously?

Try living by the spirit and not by the flesh. Quit making decisions and judgements based on worldy values, because they will all fail in the end. Base your decisions on loving God by loving your brother.

Nah, it makes no sense what-so-ever. I mean why have the Ten Commandments?

No one said God makes sense using your physical senses. This is why you are truly saved on faith alone, or what you cannot see. The ten commandments appear to be just about worldy matters on the outside, but have a truly different meaning in the spirit, which precludes being able to live up to them without the power of God.

There had better be accountability for scumbags that do this stuff...or else When I shuffle off this mortal coil.. I am personally going to kick gods A$$!

There will be a judgement and there will be the extermination of evil, but none shall be lost - even the least of those in the eyes of a woman.

So to answer your question of:

original quote by: ben91069
The murderers, rapists, politicians, thieves, adulterers, idolaters, liars, and just generally what people think are bad people are all going to be saved and we will all live with them on a day to day basis in the Kingdom of Heaven. Are you ready for this?

NO! I am not ready for this... But Ill tell you this...if you are right...then God better be ready for me... Cause his A$$ is grass!

Peace will come to you, whether you like it or not and your worries will be subdued. Let it not worry you now and ask for revelation, because that is what will become of it. PS-God will take your complaints and turn them to joy. Just know that you will hit bottom before you stand again.

Originally posted by TONE23
Personally I already think I AM going to hell(if there is such a place) because I do not believe myself to be worthy of saving anyway.

The thing you are missing is belief of salvation by letting your deeds come between you and God. This is quite evident. I am sure that religious doctrine has invaded the truth to make you think whatever you have done is unforgiveable, but heed not the worlds ideals or even death - for Christ overcame the world.

Your sins have indeed been forgiven and the only thing stopping you is your unbelief in this simple, yet profound, statement. This is the gift and the word that keeps us alive and those who do not discover this are still saved by those who have. A woman is sanctified through her husband......remember this if anything.

Originally posted by Tamahu

As Samael Aun Weor says, the Absolute Truth is the Unknowable from moment-to-moment.

Krishnamurti says that the Truth is not knowable becasue it always the New(Nu or Mu, Emptiness), constantly renewing itself so therefore cannot be emulated.

Anthything known or emulated is not the Absolute Truth, because the known implies the past.

The Absolute Truth is always New.

These statements are only true in the physical world, and I understand every on of them, but the truth I am speaking of refers to a matter of faith now and revelation later. This thread was not designed to debate the truth, which can only come from God, but to let God do the work hisself. Truth in physical terms is relative, because it changes all the time, but Gods truth never changes. But soon the greater will become less and the less will become greater, and then it will be more evident.

Originally posted by ben91069
Oh dear GJ, it was purely an oversight that I didn't include a seat, but I will surely add that and some other things.

I won't be coming for to visit until you get that fixed--that's a scary thing to fall into in the middle of the night. Plus your hiney gets wet!

You know, since I started to begin understanding your own "parables and tongues" quotes like these make me laugh instead of taking the defensive.

I knew you'd come around! I find gj to be a rare gem, indeed--I laugh out loud at all of his posts. His timing has been quite impeccable in certain white horse episodes!

Tootsie...what a classic. A man disguised as a woman.....

Huh!

And don't forget when he was 'Little Big Man.'

Originally posted by ben91069
These statements are only true in the physical world, and I understand every on of them, but the truth I am speaking of refers to a matter of faith now and revelation later. This thread was not designed to debate the truth, which can only come from God, but to let God do the work hisself. Truth in physical terms is relative, because it changes all the time, but Gods truth never changes. But soon the greater will become less and the less will become greater, and then it will be more evident.

My understanding is that true Faith is manifested in our Hearts as we walk the Path and live truth at the crossraods of any given situation(relative truths that relate to specific situations come from the Absolute Truth, but the Absolute Truth would obviously be "more" than the sum of it's parts or more than the sum of all relative truths).

Belief is just belief and plenty of mistaken people with honest intentions commit many atrocities in the name of so-called "Faith"(which is usually nothing but belief or blind-faith).

So we have to study, renounce desire, meditate and practice Alchemy with our spouse, or single transmutation if we are a bachelor.

We may start with belief, but real faith comes from Gnosis, which is not just intellectual, but lived from moment to moment.

As Samael Aun Weor said(and as all Prophets have said), the Truth really only comes when 'the ego is completely reduced to cosmic dust'.


Regarding the Two Truths I mentioned to queenannie(my notes in parenthesis):

The Four Noble Truths


The Two Truths

So how can we develope a personal understanding of the fundamental Buddhist doctrine of the Two truths? By coming to know our everyday world of lived experience(Gnosis), we appreciate what is known as samvaharasatya, the world of conventional reality, where the Causal principle(Tiphereth) operates. If we accept the reality of this world as conventional, then we can accept the empty nature of this world which, according to Buddhism, is the ultimate truth, the Paramarthasatya(which Yeshua and many other Christified Buddhas are said to have achieved). The relationship between these two aspects of reality is important. The world of appearance is used not so much as a contrast or an opposite to the world of ultimate truth, but rather as the evidence, the very basis on which the ultimate nature of reality is established(God wants to Self-Realize Her/Him-Self in all of His/Her parts in existence)...


...Now when we speak of happiness in Buddhism, our understanding of it is not confined to a state of feeling. Certainly cessation(the total cessation of suffering) is not a state of feeling, and yet we could say that cessation is the highest form of happines because it is, by definition, complete freedom from suffering. Here again cessation, or true happiness, does not come into being from nowhere or without any cause. This is a subtle point, of course, because from a Buddhist perspective cessation is not a conditioned event, so it cannot be said to be actually produced, or caused by anything. However, the actualization or attainment of cessation does depend on the Path and on an individual's(Buddha Nature or the small spark of Christ that the average person has incarnated, which has the potential of taking us into full Buddha or Christ-Hood) effort. You cannot attain cessation without making an effort. In this sense we can therefore say that the path that leads to cessation is the cause of cessation.

- H.H. the Dalai Lama

Regards





[edit on 31-7-2006 by Tamahu]

Krishnamurti asks in "The Awakening of Intelligence", how the Absolute Truth can take 'control' of our daily processes from moment-to-moment.

Such as working for a living, taking care of our families, etc.

But unfortunately he only addressed the Conscious Comprehension aspect of it, and not the Sexual aspect.

The two are inseperable, because in Gnosis it is taugh that the Sacred Sexual Energy is the fuel for the Consciousness.

If we are fornicating, then we lose that Consuming Fire of Yehovah that is within our Consciousness, because Consciousness is God.

No one can enter the Absolute which is beyond relative Consciousness, as a Self-Realized Monad, without first awakening the Consciousness.

This is why we need Initiation in the Mysteries of Sex such as in Gnostic Christianity, Tantric Buddhism, Sufism, etc.

now this is a 'word' that sure can cause trouble... as the 'story' goes 'Eve' wanted it n gave it to 'Adam' but they couldn't handle it or it was not the right time for this... many saints have said that the 'Tree of Knowledge of Good n Evil' is no longer in ' Paradise', since the Immaculate Conception of Mary...It is in Mary n there is where it was supposed to be n given by her to us felow/babies of her in a Grace-filled way...n that is just a spect of the 'absolute' which is really Infinite...

The Thread is that we all are forgiven and that is so, at Calvary in Mary !

The lack of 'Freedom' and the attitude towards the Teenage Man/Woman n the state of mind/misuse of the Holy Sexual Energy of the Creator is the main cause of the enslavement of Mankind by the 'controllers' of evil on the Planet Earth...

As 'they' sail you off to the Island Of Lesbos and load you up with the guilt-trip...omg...

Sooo when the Human Race wakes up and frees itself from the 'absolute eternity's' of guilt and puts on Knowledge with Maria and sails on into the Light of Lights... Free at Last... thank GOD... Free at Last !

Lolove n luck n good sex/emotions/passions/health... Ave Maria ! In Her Heart !

[ miles n miles of 'Rocky' in the teenage years ] 14yo Madonna Mary, with the King on Her Breast, the 'Land of Milk n Honey' ! kisses !... Infinity

bradblog.com...://www.wakahiru-me.com/media/vid/misc/mlk_i_have_a_dream_060106a_160_320x240.flv&width=320 &height=240

we all will get there !... MLK

[edit on 1-8-2006 by georgejohn]

Originally posted by WiseSheep

10 Nor thieves, nor ..... shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And yet Revelations state that he will return like a thief in the night.

So if Jesus is like a thief, can he inherit thte kingdom of God?

Or, if he only appears to be "like a thief" in the night, is Jesus then a deciever in appearing like a thief, when he is not?



Show me, demonstrate for me what truth can cease to exist. Prove to me that you can exert enough pressure to anything that you can squeeze it totally out of existance. I have yet to witness it. Anything that has enough pressure or energy exerted upon it can not cease to exist, but merely changes form.

Who here can tell me that the very consciousness that we are somehow can cease to exist when certain forces are applied.

To tell me that the very GOD of all creation is also the ultimate and only universal deleter of souls is to tell me you know the intentions of the infalable almighty.

To tell me such things puts you in the same bracet and class as those you condem to non-existance.

I don't by it.

I'll gladly serve alongside in heaven whomever GOD accepts, regardless of the objections and standards of the sub-GODly.

Judgement day may be an individual day, just as is our individual relationship with our GOD.

original quote by: ben91069
Your lack of faith caused by your selfish desire to be above sin will gaurantee you will live with those you despise.

Funny I didnt see anyone die and make you god!!!!
I am selfish because I want to live an honest life?
And I already told you that I am probably going to hell...the difference between me and you is that you put yourself higher up than others while I put myself below them...maybe we should switch for a bit.
In other words get down off the high horse.
ALso unlike you, Ido not attempt to speak for god...try not doing that for a minute.
After all how the heck do you know anymore than anyone else about it?
Did god come to you personally and say it.(not talking about referrences in the bible)
and believe me when I get to hell...Ill hold the door for ya!

original quote by: ben91069
Try living by the spirit and not by the flesh. Quit making decisions and judgements based on worldy values, because they will all fail in the end. Base your decisions on loving God by loving your brother.

you missed my point. My point is.. why have the ten commandments IF people are just going to be absolved anyway then why would it matter to follow them? By your first posts explanation they dont have to because they will all be saved anyway. not only is your arguement circular, but extremely flawed.
I may not be a christian, but I live my life one hell of alot closer to the laws of your god than the majority of chrisitans I have ever met in person.

original quote by: ben91069
No one said God makes sense using your physical senses. This is why you are truly saved on faith alone, or what you cannot see. The ten commandments appear to be just about worldy matters on the outside, but have a truly different meaning in the spirit, which precludes being able to live up to them without the power of God.

so If they have no remorse in their hearts and they do these things over and over and over again...they still get saved? they still get to reap the benefits? please explain this one.

original quote by: ben91069
Peace will come to you, whether you like it or not and your worries will be subdued. Let it not worry you now and ask for revelation, because that is what will become of it. PS-God will take your complaints and turn them to joy. Just know that you will hit bottom before you stand again.

you have no idea how far to the bottom I have hit in the past...you have NO IDEA..but maybe you should drop by RATS and read my thread My personal experience with Organized Crime and Conspiracy and then tell me about hitting bottom. Judge not unless you have walked a mile in my moccassins, okay?
And I said it before and Ill say it again...If god DOES NOT punish the wicked then Ill kick his ever lovin arse and do it myself..period end of point!

I am not above sin ...nor do I claim to be... but I sure as hell dont lie,cheat,steal,kill,rape, or anything else on your nifty little list.
And even though I no longer do these things doesnt mean that I wont slip and do one of them... My point is this. these people are going to do some of the most heinous things that the physical world can endure and have no remorse what-so-ever... and still be saved? And if that is the way it is then you can keep it.

P.S. stop putting words in your gods mouth...thanks. Fact is, not even the Pope KNOWS; noone KNOWS. Becuase not even you are garaunteed saving.. not unless god came down personally and wrote you a blank check..(which im sure he didnt)

If I seem alittle agitated it is because of the above reason. to the rest of the thread's posters who obviously were able to convey their points of view without the condensending attitude I applaud and thank you. If I read your last post in error and you were not being condenscending, then I apologize. But thats the way it came off to me.

Originally posted by TONE23

original quote by: ben91069
Your lack of faith caused by your selfish desire to be above sin will gaurantee you will live with those you despise.

Funny I didnt see anyone die and make you god!!!!
I am selfish because I want to live an honest life?
And I already told you that I am probably going to hell...the difference between me and you is that you put yourself higher up than others while I put myself below them...maybe we should switch for a bit.
In other words get down off the high horse.
ALso unlike you, Ido not attempt to speak for god...try not doing that for a minute.
After all how the heck do you know anymore than anyone else about it?
Did god come to you personally and say it.(not talking about referrences in the bible)
and believe me when I get to hell...Ill hold the door for ya!

Don't take my wording to be construed in a self-righteous tone, TONE (no pun intended). To want to do the right thing is a a good value, but it is no measure of salvation. In fact, if I judged myself on what I have done, then I would have to say that I will be looking for the door to hell with you holding it open for me.

I did not mean to get you worked up with my statements, and I apologize if it did. Perhaps I was too harsh, but no one is going to say the right things everyone wants to hear all the time.

From what you said about yourself and now me, you still judge by laws and rules as a basis for salvation. Maybe this is what I should have said, and in this type of judgment I could never put myself on a pedistal over anyone, because I would be doomed.

About speaking for God, everyone is a reflection and part of God. What I say is a reflection of God and so are you. This is why salvation comes to all, but in different ways. This is one of the reasons to post this topic; to discuss this aspect of the Kingdom of Heaven. Those who judge by laws and rules deny the spirit and are subject to eternal refinement, but this is still going to be better than the current world. Those who live by spirit will be like God, not just in spirit, but in the flesh as well and will have the ability to work miracles for those who will be refined. Both groups of people recieve salvation, just in different forms and they compliment each other. This is the allegory of man and woman referred to in the New Testament. For man comes from a woman, but woman will come from man - just like in Genesis so it will be after Revelation.

you missed my point. My point is.. why have the ten commandments IF people are just going to be absolved anyway then why would it matter to follow them? By your first posts explanation they dont have to because they will all be saved anyway. not only is your arguement circular, but extremely flawed.
I may not be a christian, but I live my life one hell of alot closer to the laws of your god than the majority of chrisitans I have ever met in person.

One purpose of law is to make one know sin or to find fault in themselves. Without the law, no one would no sin. There is a long discourse on this in the NT about the struggle within between law and spirit. Forgive me that I do not usually quote the scriptures for one reason most people are capable of finding this info for themselves and sometimes people try and use scripture to take the whole topic in different directions. Fortunately for you, you already have seen the purpose of law, in that you feel you are going to hell. Your next step is to realize that there is no way for you to be truly saved apart from God. He provided a first step for you which will lead to great gains in your faith if you believe.

Second, only a few know the mechanisms of the Kingdom of Heaven. It is not preached in churches or even given much thought amongst most. Seek first the Kingdom of Heaven and all things will be added. Whether you believe I speak in alignment with God or not is not my concern, because all truth will eventually be revealed and if I have spoke wrongly, it will be shown. Either way, I speak with conviction just as any man would and it is up to you to decide whether it has merit or not. Since most people who claim to be Christians tend to believe in salvation and damnation then this is one reason people do not usually go on killing sprees or shoplifting binges, but for the most part rules aren't a measure of judgment. If they knew the truth, the world would completely come unraveled, and it soon shall but will settle down again in time. As for you living your life on a higher level than most Christians, it isn't my job to judge your works or others. Anyone who does so is asking for bring judgement upon themselves.

so If they have no remorse in their hearts and they do these things over and over and over again...they still get saved? they still get to reap the benefits? please explain this one.

Every action has a reason, and it is all attributed to the spirit of the Anti-Christ. No one is immune to being influenced by the AC spirit, and some have hardly any choice but to give in to fleshly desires. It has never been about what one does that gives them salvation, but believing in the truth, which brings forth abundant fruit. To God, a serial killer who does not know the truth is the same as a soccer mom who does not know the truth. Just because these two do not manifest the AC spirit in the same ways does not mean one believes and one does not, because there is no way to measure salvation from appearances or our earthly perspective. Believe me, even Hitler thought he was doing good works.

Since I am running out of characters here, I will keep this shorter than I wanted, but lets just say that when the spirit of the AC is removed, then there will be no more evil in the world. Even Jeffrey Dahmer will see his folly and will become a greater friend to mankind than others who never did what he did, all through the Glory of God, for his purpose. He will be remorseful as many will.

I do love satirical posts - nice job, ben91069!

:shk:

Seriously - how may of these exact same topics do we need here? Can we not encourage people to use the "search" function, even when they are bible-thumping?