F-22 Raptor foreign sales ban repealed

Indeed, it's a great plane. But I don't think that many nations have the money for that fighter. If we say that a Hornet or a Gripen have a unit cost around 25-30 millon and a Raptor 130 It's pretty simple math. Only Japan can affoard it.

Originally posted by emile
So all your sub-meaning is only Idia will buy and have right to buy F-22, and US also should sale it to Idia without save

For your country is the biggest demoncrasic country, I agree with you.

But your country should change some costum as burn woman etc. then would be a stronge nation.

Sutee(burning of widows) is banned and has been since the 1800's.It is no longer practiced and hasn't been for along time. Do catch up with current if not 19th century news if you can.

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Oh! chinawhite, you are such a grand genius. I pray that an Oracle of a person that you are, would take time to answer questions from a wasteful lowling like me.

Well thank you, I shall quote this next time we meet. But dont be so modest next time, if you feel inferior you should just admit it. Or maybe next time when you post things, make sure you have REAL sources for your claims

The information about India developing missiles for Iran that you so very unselfishly shared was truly eye opening.

I'll know a good friend like you wouldn't hold back on information like this (maybe modify it 50% instead of the usual 100%), so i'll do you a favour back. Now shall we say your in front with these two threads you just created?

The only foreign country I expect to see getting the F-22 is Japan, with Australia as a "maybe". Japan has the money, and they're among the US's most dependable allies, the only countries in the same league are the UK and Australia.

The UK is commited to Eurofighter, Raptor is not an option for them
Australia I'd certainly trust with them, but I think they're a bit expensive for their purposes.

The defense relationship with India is still quite new, and I don't see them getting the F-22 anytime soon. F-35, sure, but the F-22 is a bit much for a fresh-minted alliance. Besides I think they are simply too expensive for the Indian .mil to sell the idea domestically.

Israel? Ha!
I'm with Intergurl on this one, hell why not skip the middleman and sell one directly to the Chinese? If most Americans knew to what degree our alliance with Israel was a strictly one-way affair, they'd be shocked.

But I digress...

[edit on 7/29/06 by xmotex]

chinawhite why are you always defending china? you sound like a no good COMMIE SPY! lol china isnt such a great country you know i lived there for a number of years and its really depressing to live there almost all the plps that live there are ether 90 year olds digging in garbage or factory workers. at 12:00pm the workers pour out like angry ants its like "ahhhh there gonna kill me!"lol jeez china sucks! doesnt china have like the second largest GDP in the world???? if the chinese goverment didnt spend all there time and money copying everything and focus entirely on there economy and cleaning up there citys and actually having some kind of law against thowing garbage into the RIVER! seriously there are piles of garbage in the rivers its crazy. anyways even if they did all that crap china would still suck BAD! cuz the gov is still a commie gov so they can go fsck themselves..hehe USA, USA, USA lol

Some Thoughts-

1. The best way to employ the F-22 is offensively. Either as a COE standoff slingbomber or as a baselane lockdown OCA system (killing air threats at reaction distances too close or too S2A protected to be 'blockaded' by LRAAM tactics).

2. Without full LO, the F-22 + AIM-120C5 is not able to beat the Eurofighter + Meteor. Without full LO, 'Allied' F-22 users can neither supplement nor take over for U.S. presence. Attempting to do so will lead to combat attrition technology loss faster than anything.

3. Without GBU-39 and premission targeting (i.e. U.S. Overhead), the F-22 lacks the ability to hit sufficient numbers of sufficiently 'random' threats to be useful. Blk.20 with it's SAR modes and SDB qualification will help this. But as these will be 'upgrades' even to the USAF, it is hard to justify them being sold to other nations as baselines because they are indeed offensive systems. Indeed, it is, IMO _dangerous_ to have as many if not more Raptors in foreign hands as in ours. Exclusive leveraging is one thing. Absolute inventory WEIGHTED leveraging is another. And we have too few to cover our own needs to trust them to others.

4. The best-use profile of the F-22 is supersonic from the deck to best height followed by a burn-up/Mach-up optimized run to 600-700nm. Hitting a tanker. Throttling up to full stride for 300nm to target at back. Hitting a tanker. And coming home to rinse:repeat in the 3-4hrs of a Mach 1.4 average mission evolution compared to the 7-10 you might face with a subsonic equivalent. As a nominally DCA platform for a 'neutral' country like Japan _is supposed to be_ (_Constitutionally_ prevented from doing otherwise) the F119 with it's ultrahot core may not provide much better endurance or cruise performance than a 220E + 3X 610 tanked F-15. Fortuately or otherwise, nobody else has the _perceived_ need for such a high-far-fast profile, as is evidenced by their own _LACK OF TANKING AND SUPPORT MISSIONS_ (EA, DEAD, ISR).

5. Baloney (Lunchmeat Inc.) and The U.S. Fed are in trouble. Having broken several major laws on Anti Deficiency Act (forcing Congress to pay for something they did not agree to allocate funds for, beforehand) related to Fraud in the Inducement (contractually promising that you can do something for a given fee+incentive based payment, knowing you will need more money) and 'Buying In' (accepting a hit in R&D for a given system on the assumption or handshake agreement of later padding the books on DCO/COO/TLCC spares and materials to gain it back) to the F-22 techbase.
When the F-22 was stonewalled by Congress because the USAF wouldn't and then -couldn't- WHORE IT WORLDWIDE, (money for their districts and back pockets being the onlything they recognize) due to LO and Costs, the number of F-22s was degraded from 750 to 450 to 380 to 276 to 183. Which means that no amount of realistic Direct Cost Of Operations payback could be hidden.
Around about the same time as the Congressional _treasonous_ backstabbing process /started/, Lunchmeat quickly thought to turn the F-22 baseline over to the F-35 as a suitably cheap-and-dirty F-16 replacement. Leading to a process by which we are now we are robbing Sam to pay Peter to rob Peter to Pay Paul. And the U.S. Taxpayer pays Sam.
This evolving debt solution process is yet another moronic act which _will not work_ because the baseline program costs for the F-35 are now up around 276 BILLION dollars and still climbing (original costs were 191 BILLION so it's not like it was ever cheap but this is a 44% increase) with followon support costs estimated as high as 347 BILLION more.
News of which rate hike, along with cheaper/better options out of Europe has caused potential export customers to begin fleeing like rats off a sinking ship even as the USAF totals have gone from 2,400 -> 1,763 -> 1,200. And the USMC/USN numbers have sunk from 680->240 and 550 ->170. And the Admiral in charge of the F-35 conspiracy has publically stated that '1,600 is the break even point' beyond which, there is no way to maintain even a moderately 'average' unit cost.


CONCLUSION:
So... Right Now, we are back where we started at with Lunchmeat willing to sell 'anything to anybody' (and ain't it ironic that they all want the Raptor and not the Just So Bleeped) and the Pentagon ready to say /there's no security risk in doing so/. Just to CYA the careers and corporate health of men who should be in jail facing felony racketeering charges. And a company which should not be allowed to dictate price on ANY system by virtue their improper and certainly _unwise_ technology investment strategy of the past 2 decades.

And all of Washington D.C. snickers at the wooljob they are once more pulling over the dumb bleating American Sheep, knowing that NEITHER of these systems will survive a DEWS intensive environment likely to be 'standard' by 2015. But equally well aware that corruption becomes inescapable after 'downsizing' the U.S. military industrial complex to the point where competition is no longer a given but a memory.

This is what We The People have to be 'proud of' in our government.


KPl.

mega_deth,

Your been here a grand total of 2 days, so how does a statement like "why are you always defending china" work out when you only been here for TWO days

And dumping rubbish in rivers???. In comparision to good ole america which ships its rubbish in barges to be dumped into the sea to either drift across the pacific or back to america?.

You didn't notice it says patriotic under his name.

I think everybody here would defend their own country as chinawhite.

Im with China White on this.

There seems to be this resurgance in fanatical American arrogance recently. Its like the cold war execpt this time they feel that the enemy could be hidding in a box of Kung-Po chicken.

As has already been mentioned copying an aircraft as advanced as the f-22 would be a near impossibility for any normal country and even is they were to manage it, it would be huge amount of time before its put into service

"Mega-Deth" you seem to be describibile as moronic at best. You post was vicious, unprovoked and was offensive beyond belief.

I think America should sell these like theres no tommorow. This projec has been ridiculously over buget and the numbers ordered have been slashed to the point where it seems like a waste of time. The only was they can hope to buik up confidence for new projects would be to whp up a downgraded version and sell them to those who can afford it.

Editied for my shocking spelling
Jensy

[edit on 30-7-2006 by jensy]

The UK have no need for the F-22 ; they were offered teh F-117a back in the day , but teh tonka does teh job better - and they ere offered teh B-2 , but have no requirement for a heavy bomber anymore


so , although they will be offered the Raptor - they have no use for it - as the typoon does everything they want.


i must say ch1466 - some good posts recently

Japan the brits and the aussies, no problem they should have them.

As for Israel I don't like their dealings with china. Much reassuring would need to be done.

It is interesting that some people express a fear that countries like Australia and the UK will compromise US technology, when US citizens such as Ames, Walker and Hansen did a pretty good job in the USA themselves getting secrets out.

REPLY: Don't forget ex-president Pantload (do I really have to be specific) selling to China Americas entire patent database, including 40 years of nuclear tech, radar.... the whole shebang. Amazing what one will do for campaign contributions. Just think of the wealth of info that was made available.

So, will China keep it to themselves, or sell the info to...........

Originally posted by mega_deth
chinawhite why are you always defending china? you sound like a no good COMMIE SPY! lol china isnt such a great country you know i lived there for a number of years and its really depressing to live there almost all the plps that live there are ether 90 year olds digging in garbage or factory workers. at 12:00pm the workers pour out like angry ants its like "ahhhh there gonna kill me!"lol jeez china sucks! doesnt china have like the second largest GDP in the world???? if the chinese goverment didnt spend all there time and money copying everything and focus entirely on there economy and cleaning up there citys and actually having some kind of law against thowing garbage into the RIVER! seriously there are piles of garbage in the rivers its crazy. anyways even if they did all that crap china would still suck BAD! cuz the gov is still a commie gov so they can go fsck themselves..hehe USA, USA, USA lol

How racist/arrogant can u be there??? Everyone has the right to stick up for their country when it's insulted or be proud of it.Why don't you provide proof showing how they dump and where they do it instead of waffling on with utter BS.

Just to be clear, I said The only countries that I would personally trust with the F-22’s.... I wasn’t saying that the UK or Australia would buy the F-22, just stating which of our allies I’d trust with one.

[edit on 30-7-2006 by WestPoint23]

I am not too sure that very many countries would want the f-22. It is an incredibly expensive plane that is really only worthwhile if you expect to be fighting a war in the near future or have hundreds of billions of dollars to spend on your military.

Canada doesn't want it i can tell you that right now unless we only have to pay the same unit cost of say a super hornet. In other words it ownt happen we have no use for it.

Yeah, Canada is certainly on the "could have it if they wanted it" list.
But I can't picture the Canadians blowing that kind of money on something they certainly don't need.

You damned sensible, peaceful Canucks, getting all the violence out of your system in brutal hockey games
Don't you ever miss the vicarious thrill of bombing some poor hapless third worlders back from the Bronze Age back to the Stone Age?

[edit on 7/31/06 by xmotex]

Originally posted by xmotex
Yeah, Canada is certainly on the "could have it if they wanted it" list.
But I can't picture the Canadians blowing that kind of money on something they certainly don't need.
[edit on 7/31/06 by xmotex]

Its hard enough for are military to get stuff they do need ie medium lift helo for Afg, heavy/medium lift planes.

I think hockey is Canadian soldiers and civilian taking out their frustrations about the morons that make it into paralament.

Hello all,

Interesting topic, I am English and work at the Royal International Air Tattoo, at RAF Fairford, a USAF base and heard nothing about the UK even being interested in purchasing a F22. With 21+ different countries airforce personnel at this Airshow word gets around fast.

With the USAF selling to the UK, the F35, and all the US and UK seem to be doing is fighting wars together. And to doubt the UKs ability to provide the technology to put in a downgraded F22....the UK is the largest exporter of Miltary tecnology and has 2nd largest capital into military technology and science, America being 1st. I am also convinced that countries like China would also be perfectly capable.

The U.S. should not sell the F-22 to anyone but itself. They have enough problems with leaks in the United States already; there are numerous articles about Chinese spies they have spotted trying to export everything from engine to radar technology to China; China somehow got a hold of the AEGIS system or something and now has it on ships and it is virtually identical to the U.S.'s version that's details were supposed to be classified.

The capabilities of the F-22 are just too extreme, and there are a lot of enemies that want to get their hands on that technology.