The myth of Israeli merkava tanks

Iqonx,

>>
I've been hearing for years that the Israeli Merkava tanks are the most armored and protected tanks in the world and this has been drilled into a lot of people as well giving them a kind of un-warranted myth that they are on the level of being invincible.
>>

It's a myth long due for popping, like a white-head pimple gone spherical. Not that the War Chariot is 'special' mind you. Rather that tanks themselves are 'all that' for want of being manned, and heavy-gun restrictive.

>>
This myth has been broken in Lebanon the Hezbollah has been tearing Israeli tanks with Anti-tank mines and Anti-tank missiles and not disabling them but actually destroying them to the point where the crew inside has been killed.
>>

It would be nice if you would put up a kill ratio of the dead Hezbollah. If too few are dying, it's time to spike up the casualty count among the civillians so that the Hezbollah starve in place and are easily recognized as who they really are.

Oh, I'm /sorry/, does that little bit of military strategy fail to have the same 'ring of truth' that all warfare should? You strike the belly of the snake so that the head is too weak to starve. You destroy _assymetric_ threats by destroying that which they cannot hide.

Duuuh.

>>
Even in Iraq the British Challenger2 and M1A2 have survived for years while Israel has lost more tank crew in 7 days then British and Americans tank crews that have been lost in the last 3 years combined.
>>

The Israelis have lost touch with fighting a guerilla threat and are not using the proper airland tactics and aggressive overwatch to deny the Hezbollah like the rabid animals they are. The difference being that the Israelis are trying to softpedal an action which they should have rip-roared from the start.

Since it is clear that if you let a criminal profit from his actions as a means to 'negotiated settlement' he will only return again. Yet if you vaporize an criminal's home and hearth support network _WITHOUT_ issueing a 'leave now' polite warning, you make it clear that the criminal is not the only person who can use deliberate cross border assassination and kidnap drill.

Oh yes, the ones they don't kill should be imprisoned. For Life.

>>
This brings it down to 2 conclusions :

1.The tank only seemed invincible because all they faced where poorly armed Palestinians who where badly trained and poorly armed. So the tank was not battle tested but was only ever tested and used against inferior Palestinian fighters. Israeli tanks are hype.
>>

Nope. Not at all. All organized forces gain an attritional leverage from the numbers they mass. If you send small units to do for-show occupation drills, they will get hammered by prepared defenses. If you send LARGE forces, those that get X will pass in front of Y and be splattered like slaughtered meat for all their kin and kind to see.

>>
or

2. The tank is very strong and tough just as Israel claims but the Iranian weapons supplied are even tougher and can easily destroy the tanks. Now think about this the Merkava for years is said to have been better armored then the M1A2. Imagine what will happen to American and British forces in Iraq if Iran ever decides to start using there tens of thousands of Anti-tank missiles against American and British armored vehicles. They could easily destroy American/allied armed forces.
>>

You shoot a man standing in a turret hatch and he has no where to go to give himself decent protection, fast enough to matter. You plan a 500lb bomb under his tank and he's gonna roast in hell along with all his fellow slaughter dawgs. The difference is what Stalin always said: "You achieve victory by how many you can afford to lose and still win, not by how many you can kill before losing." Until the Israelis remember this basic fact of war, they will not target the civillian as the basis of the Hezbollah threat. And obliterate them without mercy or warning as the ultimate reminder of where the real vulnerability is.

OTOH, all tanks could use a lot better improvement in visionics and close in weapons. Namely the ability to autoslew 12-30mm guns to engage targets to the flanks based upon an overhead synthetic (flyalong UAV) view that was entirely the responsibility of the gunner in close terrain and the commander in longer engagement zones. Inbound round doppler warning would also be very nice, as would the ability to auto-track contrast centroids rather than wait for some moron of a human to get his sight picture clicking.

Use proper maneuver doctrine to counter the _expectation of attack_ (obviously Hezbollah planned all this, well in advance and so are doubly the devils of their own deserved demise) and specifically supporting arms to sterilize and obscure all routes that you cannot get off of. And things will get easier.

>>
Now i will just paste 2 reports about Iranian weapons being used on Israelis in Lebanon by hezbollah :
>>

Snip Drivel.

The IDF are a bunch of slavering idiots if this is true. As the platoon or company leader he had NO BUSINESS getting out of his vehicle to throw a tantrum over his dead friend. Nor in fleeing the scene without handing off his mission status to someone else over the Company net. If he was the sole firesupport unit still in action, it was his JOB to make sure his weapons were clear.

And as a leader you are expected to be all-there if not 'that' in battle and this man broke every notion of professional discipline and detachment.

That he was /surprised/ by the nature of the terrain and threat locations in it only goes to show how badly the Israeli maneuver system and particularly combat march planning is. Because you NEVER put forces into contact without a secured line of support and you NEVER go down a road that isn't OCCUPIED by friendly forces to pass through. You need a minimal leapoff to contact distance, not a major open travel axis deep in the heart of indian country. At a minimum there should have been aircav all over his AA line of march and overhead Air in a CAS stack nearby.

>>
and

Israel has been reported to have lost something like 10+ armored vehicles such as Jeeps, APC and tanks.
>>

Snip Drivel.

Whoopy. Again, Israel is failing to follow basic COIN logic since time immemorial. For every Soldier lost, 1,000 Civillians. For every attack on a road, two villages ahead of and behind the point of attack, obliterated. Caesar did this in Gaul. Charlemagne too. Brits did it to the Scots and Irish. We did it to the Native Americans. It works. And you deserve it because the threat are fighting like uniformed animals and deserve to be treated as such.

That said, only ten tanks lost in the opening week of an opfor initiated engagement is actually very good LER considering the limited 'map the battlefield' nature of the meeting engagements.

What you cannot do is allow for the threat to dictate the desultory engagement tactics before fleeing like wolves before the hunter. Given it is likely that most of Hezbollah is actually safe-as-cowards back across the Syrian border or in Beirut...

[edit on 1-8-2006 by ch1466]

On a "Here they dare not come!" assumption of negated further attacks.

Again, the only way to deal with that mindset of hit-and-run juvenile vandalism tactics is to reinforce the insecure mentality that is typical of 'coup counting' idiots who have lost so many times that they will keep a score card by which even the smallest of victories (ten vehicle, woohoo!) is measured as some kind of an achievement.

Namely to wreak such destruction in the wake of their fleeing that they are shamed as cowards and instigators of combat they ran from in the eyes of their fellows.

Much as the South Africans broke the ANC supporters with 'externals' that amounted to village by village local genocide.

Of course the same can be said for the Israelis whose existence is dependent entirely upon their own reputation as fierce predators of the animal known as Arab.

So that they cannot afford to be seen as _weak_ as much as 'convinced' of their own limits of power. Because the wolves will come back to take more and more and more off the screaming corpse if they do.

CONCLUSION:
1. The Israelis need a (Wiesel) light tankette that can supply large amounts of suppression firepower (turreted light cannon and unguided LAW for a start) without a huge dollar commitment inherent to the Merkava or Magach conversions. Obviously, this unit should be robotic so that losses are not felt as casualties and the potential exists for wanton slaughter without attributable 'fault'. Drive into a vill and for each tank hit, level another building with thermobarics. Smoke and Reactives will largely obviate the most immediate threat and 500lb demo charges...just roll out another and roll over another cluster of hooches.

2. In two more years, MTHEL/Nautilus will begin field trials. From that point the Katyusha attacks will begin to lose meaning though of course we will be stuck paying for Israel's 'self defense' without any such equivalent of our own.

3. A UCAV that can maintain presence over an armor column at altitudes unsuitable for engagement by MANPADS and with a payload that can only be lofted by turbine power would also be 'nice' (oh how I laugh). Say X8 GBU-39 or X16 VSM/Viper Strike for 8-10hrs at a time.

4. The Israelis have already lost the tactical initiative in not leapfrogging over the border with airmobile forces within hours of the hostage taking and beginning a process of extermination of village after village (500 men, women and kids per hour) until the Arabs figured out that NO it's NOT about 'yesterdays embarrassments'. But todays criminal acts. At which point they would likey kill hte Soldiers and the Israelis could take 5,000 men, women and kids PER MAN and call it even. Without ever crossing the border (the same applies to 'Free Palestine' and the Gaza settlements).

5. In the wake of their foolishness, it must be made clear:
A. The Golan will never be returned. Even ignoring the armor-leapoff potential, it has too large an overwatching fires potential into the heart of Israel. Nor will Chebayah Farms. Nor will the last of the Bank. Nor will the terrorists now serving LIFE sentences (if they weren't before, it should be definite now). So that no Arab, anywhere on the planet, can get it in his pointy little head that this is the road to 'negotiated settelement'. Because it's only by humiliating them utterly in their attempt to externalize their own problems like little children, that you force them to look inwards to find peace. I myself find it a-mazing how they will throw away their lives as 'shahide' for land I wouldn't waste spit on but you lock a bunch of them up and suddenly they have 'civil rights' and a right to proclaim cruel and unusual punishment.

Tanks mean nothing compared to these larger goals. And the U.S. would do well to wash it's hands and let the IDF do what it must to remind 'all factions' just how very little push they have before they get SHOVED right back on their asses.

Who knows, maybe then my nation will stop paying these little punks 2.5 billion dollars a year to prop up their own little 'hood.


KPl.

Why use the apartheid South African example? "Much as the South Africans broke the ANC supporters with 'externals' that amounted to village by village local genocide." Of course, the ANC won in the end against the apartheid regime didn't it?

Really, if your strategy is to achieve piece in a country but killing thousands of civilians a week (what, your suggested rate of 500/day) why not just get on with it and nuke the place? Lets achieve peace by killing every one. Obviously you have no idea that genocide is a war crime and that civilians' lives have value, even if they come from another culture or country.

Anybody can wreck a country. Look at the US. It takes talent - not just munitions - to actually win one over and build it. Look at Iraq. Another 5-10 years of grief likely and a possible slide to sectarian civil war. And that comes from the testimony of top US generals. $1.5B/wk expended in Iraq and this is the result so far.

[edit on 4-8-2006 by sneaks]

There is no doubt in my mind that the Merkava MK4 is one of the most protected tank in the world if not the best.

read this:
Merkava tanks prove their mettle:
www.jpost.com...

there is an active protection system that developed in Israel by Rafael that not yet installed on the tanks.
here is the link to video that demonstrate this system abilities:
Trophy - An Amazing Rafael's system for ground vehicles, destroying ATGM's, RPG's and more heading towards the vehicle-
www.youtube.com...

Israel have about 3500 tanks most of them Merkava type.
Merkava mk4 entered to serves in 2002.

bare in mind – the main weapon of hizbullah is the anti tank missiles and they have lots of them and very advanced ones.

Mk2 gat hit:
www.youtube.com...

The corespondant in the movie says that Hizbullah is trying to show this attack as a victory even though 4 of its people were killed (and their bodies were ditched inside Israel's territory) and there were no losses to the IDF apart of 10 lightly wounded soldiers and one that sustained moderate injuries. They claimed that they have destroyed two bases :-D and set on fire some vehicles.
In the video you can see how 'effective' their AT missiles are, three hit that armored vehicle that doesn't seem to be badly hurt (actualy the missiles just bounced back).

There were a lot of hits and in the vast majority the crow don't get any injuries.

Links for Israel weapons movies:
israelforum.com...


[edit on 4-8-2006 by RedHorizon]

Originally posted by RedHorizon
Mk2 gat hit:
www.youtube.com...

The corespondant in the movie says that Hizbullah is trying to show this attack as a victory even though 4 of its people were killed (and their bodies were ditched inside Israel's territory) and there were no losses to the IDF apart of 10 lightly wounded soldiers and one that sustained moderate injuries. They claimed that they have destroyed two bases :-D and set on fire some vehicles.
In the video you can see how 'effective' their AT missiles are, three hit that armored vehicle that doesn't seem to be badly hurt (actualy the missiles just bounced back).

There were a lot of hits and in the vast majority the crow don't get any injuries.

Links for Israel weapons movies:
israelforum.com...


[edit on 4-8-2006 by RedHorizon]

I think that was the last war before 2000.

This is the new war and hezbollah now are armed with top of the line anti-tank missiles systems such as Metis-M, European Milan and the new RPG-29 Anti-tank rockets.

Hezbollah has fired Russian-made Metis-M anti-tank missiles and owns European-made Milan missiles, the army confirmed on Friday.
news.yahoo.com...

also int he same report :

In the last two days alone, these missiles have killed seven soldiers and damaged three Israeli-made Merkava tanks — mountains of steel that are vaunted as symbols of Israel's military might, the army said. Israeli media say most of the 44 soldiers killed in four weeks of fighting were hit by anti-tank missiles.

I would say Hezbollah's new anti-tank missiles are doing the job fine especially the Russian made Metis-M. I wonder if they have any Kornet-e missiles considering Syria also purchased those from Russia as well and could have transfered those to Hezbollah also.

They use anti tank on everything, as I sad before, it's their main weapon and they have lots of it and the most advanced once.
most of the fatalities was by anti tank missiles used on infantry and houses.
If I'm not wrong most of the tanks that entered Lebanon are mk4 but there wasn’t any fatalities on mk4 done by anti tank missile.

Originally posted by RedHorizon
There is no doubt in my mind that the Merkava MK4 is one of the most protected tank in the world if not the best.

read this:
Merkava tanks prove their mettle:
www.jpost.com...

there is an active protection system that developed in Israel by Rafael that not yet installed on the tanks.
here is the link to video that demonstrate this system abilities:
Trophy - An Amazing Rafael's system for ground vehicles, destroying ATGM's, RPG's and more heading towards the vehicle-
www.youtube.com...

Israel have about 3500 tanks most of them Merkava type.
Merkava mk4 entered to serves in 2002.

bare in mind – the main weapon of hizbullah is the anti tank missiles and they have lots of them and very advanced ones.

Mk2 gat hit:
www.youtube.com...

The corespondant in the movie says that Hizbullah is trying to show this attack as a victory even though 4 of its people were killed (and their bodies were ditched inside Israel's territory) and there were no losses to the IDF apart of 10 lightly wounded soldiers and one that sustained moderate injuries. They claimed that they have destroyed two bases :-D and set on fire some vehicles.
In the video you can see how 'effective' their AT missiles are, three hit that armored vehicle that doesn't seem to be badly hurt (actualy the missiles just bounced back).

There were a lot of hits and in the vast majority the crow don't get any injuries.

Links for Israel weapons movies:
israelforum.com...


[edit on 4-8-2006 by RedHorizon]

Alright, here is a little update on the so well protected merkava tanks...I agree that they are deadly and very well armored. BUT the missiles that Hezbollah is using are even more deadly.

missiles neutralazing Israeli tanks

I dont know much about AT weaponry so if someone would like to enlighten us about that, feel free.

I think recent events such as the demise of several Merkavas in this recent conflict show that the Merkava is clearly much more vulnerable to ATGMS than the M-1A1-A2 series is. The IDF has had more tankers lost in three weeks of combat against a much smaller foe than the US or UK in three years of daily conlict. It seems clear that the Merk is easy prey for the valiant forces of Hezbollah. THis also proves that the ultra-racist facist Zionists are not as tough as they thought nor is their precious chariot"Merkava". The M-1A1 nad ChallengerII have proven to be much more capable in combat(so much for Israelis being so much smarter than anyone else). I find it laughable that the IDF is getting their asses handed to them by a much smaller irregular unit. The IDF has no balls but then again neither does America. However, at least American and British and, I would venture a guess, French tanks are more capable than the seriously overrated Merkava. Frankly, I feel the entire myth of the badassness of the IDF is completly disproven by the last 24 days. Jiz-bollah is winning this conflict while Israel is getting its ass kicked.

Originally posted by irontyrant
I think recent events such as the demise of several Merkavas in this recent conflict show that the Merkava is clearly much more vulnerable to ATGMS than the M-1A1-A2 series is. The IDF has had more tankers lost in three weeks of combat against a much smaller foe than the US or UK in three years of daily conlict. It seems clear that the Merk is easy prey for the valiant forces of Hezbollah. THis also proves that the ultra-racist facist Zionists are not as tough as they thought nor is their precious chariot"Merkava". The M-1A1 nad ChallengerII have proven to be much more capable in combat(so much for Israelis being so much smarter than anyone else). I find it laughable that the IDF is getting their asses handed to them by a much smaller irregular unit. The IDF has no balls but then again neither does America. However, at least American and British and, I would venture a guess, French tanks are more capable than the seriously overrated Merkava. Frankly, I feel the entire myth of the badassness of the IDF is completly disproven by the last 24 days. Jiz-bollah is winning this conflict while Israel is getting its ass kicked.

you know if you say things it's don't make them true.
so keep spilling your sewer if you want, cry load as you want until your head will blow.
The facts wont influence you anyway, keep drinking Elgejira poison.

I am just speaking the truth and I will keep on doing so. My head will not blow because of doing so ,much to your chagrin. I am spewing sewer talk? I find this to be funny considering how racist Zionists are. Why are Israeli civilians more valuable than Lebonese civilians?They are not imho. Back to the topic,however, I think Israel miscalculated greatly when it decided to embark upon its current fiasco. I find that it is extremely funny that the IDF is getting schooled by a much smaller force. Israel is losing this conflict and this will be even more apparent when a cease-fire is finally declared. Look at how many missles and rockets have fallen on Israel in the last two days... many more than when the conflict first started. In mho Israel is showing that it is a bully throwing a temper tantrum. It bombs civilians because it is frustrated that in fighting Hezbollah it is losing. So it is retaliating against innocent civilians,just as America does in Iraq. Seriously back to the point, the Merkava is an overated system that is getting fu!ked up because of Israeli hubris. The Challenger II is the best protected tank in the world followed closley by the M1-A2. It must suck to be in a Merk.

Originally posted by RedHorizon

Originally posted by irontyrant
I think recent events such as the demise of several Merkavas in this recent conflict show that the Merkava is clearly much more vulnerable to ATGMS than the M-1A1-A2 series is. The IDF has had more tankers lost in three weeks of combat against a much smaller foe than the US or UK in three years of daily conlict. It seems clear that the Merk is easy prey for the valiant forces of Hezbollah. THis also proves that the ultra-racist facist Zionists are not as tough as they thought nor is their precious chariot"Merkava". The M-1A1 nad ChallengerII have proven to be much more capable in combat(so much for Israelis being so much smarter than anyone else). I find it laughable that the IDF is getting their asses handed to them by a much smaller irregular unit. The IDF has no balls but then again neither does America. However, at least American and British and, I would venture a guess, French tanks are more capable than the seriously overrated Merkava. Frankly, I feel the entire myth of the badassness of the IDF is completly disproven by the last 24 days. Jiz-bollah is winning this conflict while Israel is getting its ass kicked.

you know if you say things it's don't make them true.
so keep spilling your sewer if you want, cry load as you want until your head will blow.
The facts wont influence you anyway, keep drinking Elgejira poison.

Well redhorizon, it seems that you cant swallow the facts either.....or you just dont want to click on the link I provided. Or you just cant read....But the FACTS ARE that the merkava tanks ARE easy prey to sophisticated AT missiles...Thats it. There is no debate here. The Merkavas ARE getting blown up.

So if you have something constructive to say about this topic say it. Otherwise, stop writing pointless post like that. And please take the time to read the sources before postong, you'll look more clever that way.

No # it was banged up hard,there ware alot of reports of hiz. using KORNET
anti tank missels, supplied by syria,witch is supplied by russia.


the KORNET is a very mean and deadly weapon....

Originally posted by mojoberg

There are no Challenger2 tanks in Iraq they were returned to the UK or Germany after Saddam was deposed. The Warrior IFV is the largest vehicle we have in Iraq

Not so I'm afraid - just finished reading a book by Richard Holmes about actions in Iraq in late 2004 and Chally2's were certainly involved. AFAIK they're still there.

h1466, while I completely agree with your assessment on Merkava, I have to totally disagree with the following;

Since it is clear that if you let a criminal profit from his actions as a means to 'negotiated settlement' he will only return again. Yet if you vaporize an criminal's home and hearth support network _WITHOUT_ issueing a 'leave now' polite warning, you make it clear that the criminal is not the only person who can use deliberate cross border assassination and kidnap drill.


Oh yes, the ones they don't kill should be imprisoned. For Life.

There is a lot of clearly documented history on the topic who is the criminal in the Middle East "situation".

If one chooses to go by facts and not by Western/Eastern belief systems, Israel was "formed" as an colonial settlement under British control. Do to continues terrorist attacks by the Israelis against both Arabs AND the English, the Brits finally pulled out after they lost a lot of people. Even their Embassy was bombed by the Israelis.

Your notion of who is the criminal in this situation is simply incorrect. Border assassinations and kidnapping is a tit for tat type of affair, and while Western media is quick to report any attack against Israel, continues kidnappings of Palestinian politicians are simply called "arrests", and obvious cross border attacks by Israelis are labeled as "anti-terrorist operations".

As far as Israeli imprisonment goes, if you think arresting and jailing women and children to extort surrender and or prisoner exchange as a legal form of law enforcement, you are obviously not familiar with the fact that it is Israel that holds the ALL TIME record of human rights abuse, second only to Nazi Germany.

Whoopy. Again, Israel is failing to follow basic COIN logic since time immemorial. For every Soldier lost, 1,000 Civillians. For every attack on a road, two villages ahead of and behind the point of attack, obliterated. Caesar did this in Gaul. Charlemagne too. Brits did it to the Scots and Irish. We did it to the Native Americans. It works. And you deserve it because the threat are fighting like uniformed animals and deserve to be treated as such.

ch1466, I'm thoroughly disappointed with your position. I'll focus on this one in particular "Brits did it to the Scots and Irish. We did it to the Native Americans. It works.", and add the following; And that's exactly what the Brits did to us during the revolution, burning our villages, churches, kidnapping women and children as hostages, etc.

If you really believe that women and children deserve being burned alive because their husbands and fathers are forced to engage in gorilla warfare for their very INDEPENDENCE from a COLONIAL domination, and fight an ambush war because they do not have a luxury of a professional army, then I can only conclude that you are a Loyalist, and would have fought on the British side during the American revolution.

I for one embrace and appreciate PATRIOTIC sacrifices the American Volunteers (freedom fighters) chose to make in order to win the American INDEPENDENCE from the British COLONIAL rule. Our very ideal are based on the fight for FREEDOM and INDEPENDENCE.

Palestinians and Lebanese are doing just that, fighting for their own INDEPENDENCE from Israeli COLONIAL domination.

If you choose to disagree, you can only show your self as a hypocrite.

To make a clear point;

Again, the only way to deal with that mindset of hit-and-run juvenile vandalism tactics is to reinforce the insecure mentality that is typical of 'coup counting' idiots who have lost so many times that they will keep a score card by which even the smallest of victories (ten vehicle, woohoo!) is measured as some kind of an achievement.

Namely to wreak such destruction in the wake of their fleeing that they are shamed as cowards and instigators of combat they ran from in the eyes of their fellows.

There was a great movie about the American Revolutionary War for Independence called "The Patriot", and before anybody tries to divert the core point of the film do to the current anti-Semitic whopla about Mel as an actor, here's a line or to about the film it self;

"Before they were soldiers, they were family. Before they were legends, they were heroes. Before there was a nation, there was a fight for freedom"

"Peaceful farmer Benjamin Martin is driven to lead the Colonial Militia during the American Revolution when a sadistic British officer murders his son."

If you've seen the movie, I hope you'll remember that it was exactly the what you call "hit-and-run juvenile vandalism tactics" that harassed the British, disrupted their supply lines, tied up considerable military resources, and ultimately made AMERICAN HEROES even in light of TOTAL British military superiority.

Feel free to disagree if you wish, but I for one consider Francis Marion (the "Swamp Fox"), Daniel Morgan (the brilliant military strategist), and Andrew Pickens (the famous freedom fighter), as true American HEROES, and as "insecure mentality that is typical of 'coup counting' idiots who have lost so many times that they will keep a score card by which even the smallest of victories".

It is simply hypocritical to label Palestinians and Lebanese as "criminals", "cowards" and "idiots" for doing EXACTLY the same thing.

All this talk about Palestinian and Lebanese "terror" missiles, and how they are hiding among the civilians can also be easily compared to the various scenes from "The Patriot".

Just as Benjamin Martins son came to his home to hide from the British, Palestinian and Lebanese fighters go to their homes to hide from the Israelis, and just as the British executed the wounded at the house and burned a church full of the fighters families, the Israelis bomb and shell ENTIRE Lebanese neighborhoods and villages and mosques to the ground.

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly people buy into the most obvious propaganda and condemn fighters that hide in their places of worship, all while through out the ENTIRE human history, ALL cultures shared the same pattern of taking their last stand in the refuge of their place of worship, be it a church, a synagogue, a temple or a mosque.

So that they cannot afford to be seen as _weak_ as much as 'convinced' of their own limits of power. Because the wolves will come back to take more and more and more off the screaming corpse if they do.

Again, I'll refer you to the scene from "The Patriot", in which a British commander labels the Volunteer fighters as "uncivilized peasants", for not fightin a "civilized" form of warfare.

In the end, people fight for their freedom by ANY means available to them, be it a protest, a rock, or a RPG against a modern army with Air Force, NAVY, tank divisions, etc.

To finalize, ALL nations with colonial ambitions labeled freedom fighters a savages, murderers and cowards, simply because they put up a fierce fight and refused to be subdued into slavery even against impossible odds, and continued to fight for the their freedom to the end.

Vietnamese were such peoples among many others, and I'm sure you are aware of their resolve for freedom.

The true myth of Israeli merkava tanks, as with all other weapons of oppression and not defense, is that fire power can not destroy the necessity for freedom.

Iskander
Israel is next in human rights abuse after Nazi Germany?
How about Soviet Unions 70 years of terror, torture, opression and destruction of entire populations?
You do know that more people died in Russian Gulags and camps than in Hitlers camps?

northwolf, we are getting off topic.

I cared to mention what I did because that's what ch1466 chose to emphasize.

If you would like to start another topic, I'll contribute.

To get it going, we can start from here;

Israel is next in human rights abuse after Nazi Germany?

hrw.org...

www.palestinemonitor.org...

bubl.ac.uk...

www.arabhra.org...

www.dissidentvoice.org...

Strategic Abuse: Outsourcing Human Rights Violations

How about Soviet Unions 70 years of terror, torture, opression and destruction of entire populations?

northwolf, I know a WHOLE lot about that particular topic. Aspects such as psycho-social criminology, cultural criminology, global criminology, etc.

I recommend "Criminological Perspectives: Essential Readings", it's a good read if you want to venture into such fields.

You do know that more people died in Russian Gulags and camps than in Hitlers camps?

See above, absorb, and then draw the line between patterns of pre/post war social unrest, revolutions, civil wars and crime rates.

Once again, I'll be more then happy to cover it in depth, but no by hijacking this thread.

Merkavas are easy to blow up with casualties as has been shown over the last few days. M1A1'S are much more survivable.

Any proofs that M1s have ever been hit with tandem warheads? If none we really can't compare... haven't heard Iraqi insurgents using any...

Hezbollah is using RPG-29s against Merkavas, not some RPG-7s with age old rockets...

hello, this is my first post in ATS, so i will keep it simple and to the point.

the past 4 or so weeks have seen in-humane acts of destruction and killing all over the world, mostly in the middle-east. I do not condone any of these actions wether taken by a singleton on a bicycle with a left-over com-block launcher, or a bottom of the hierachy pyramid stone in a woefully over-priced piece of cutting end technology.

according to the haaretz news paper (www.haaretz.com...)

"During the battle at Ghajar, which is inside Israeli territory and has an Alawite population, Hezbollah fighters fired more than 300 anti-tank rockets of different types, including the new RPG-29, which targetted various armored vehicles and two Merkava Mark-2 tanks. One of the two tanks had the necessary armor to deflect the missiles, but the other took a hit to the body."

from this we can understand five things.

1- there are many mods "mk-#" of the Merkava.
2- some of which can be made to resist PG-29V rounds.
3- that hezb allah, have more than just one or two types of rockets.
4- they have alot of them
and last but not least ...
5- hezb allah "combatants" can get to israeli territories

i will not delve into all the facts, just the first 4.

1- mods.
(www.army-technology.com...)

Merkava Mk 1
Merkava Mk 2
Merkava Mk 3
Mk 3B
Mk 3 4th generation
Merkava Mk 4


2- the pg-29v:
(world.guns.ru...)

dual warheads, 65/105mm.
500M range.
penetration ERA plus more than 600 mm RHA

the counter:
(www.israeli-weapons.com...)
(www.defense-update.com...)

here is where it get's murkey ... let me explain ...

"Lessons learned from the operation of the Merkava Mk. 1 tanks were applied to the Merkava Mk. 2 tanks, mainly in the following:

* Improved mobility
* Improved fire control system
* improved special armor
* Internal 60mm mortar"

Thus the "problems" were fixed in the Mk. 3 ... concidering that the only test it went thru until that date was ... the 1982 invasion of lebanon -keep in mind at that time no one took on merkava tanks ... not that i could find any articles that said otherwise.-

"Among the prominent features of the Merkava Mk. 3 ... a new and unique concept of armor. Ballistic protection is provided by special armor modules, which are attached to the tank by bolts. These can be easily replaced whenever better ballistic technology is introduced."

"the Mk. 3 started to be produced at the end of 1989" ... and on that same year ... "RPG-29 grenade launcher has been adopted by Soviet army in 1989"
since then i am sure some tanks got their upgrades, i'm also sure that nt all are models later than Mk. 3. (logical assumption)


3 - Knowing that they have diffrent types of rockets, from Saggers to PG-29Vs and the whole 9 yards ... to that add the fact that they have proven time and again to be a resilient "foe" and a fierce fighter, couldn't they just have improvised and stuck a certain warhead on a certain rocket, i mean it's not rocket science ... not with basic engineering skills and a fundemental knowledge of what you are doing ... (imho)

4 - i would not know what the rate of fire is on any of these rocket launchers or what not ... but 300 rockets! that's alot ... so either hezb allah fired all 300 at the same time ... or the isrealy army did not see them comming -at least not all-So it's a safe bet that hezb allah has alot of rockets and with the 6 years prior to this incident had not only full and unrestricted access to the southern part of lebanon but also time to "experiment", pre-calculate and pre-meditate any/all variants of any/all combinations of any/all sorts/types of combat units/vehicles/chariots that might come in over the land from further south.

In the end it goes back to who has the strongest shield or the sharpest sword.



thank you.

Ill add the following again for those that missed it above.

Hezbollah also has European Milan missiles and Russian Metis-M missiles :

Hezbollah has fired Russian-made Metis-M anti-tank missiles and owns European-made Milan missiles, the army confirmed on Friday.
news.yahoo.com...

Metis-M :
www.deagel.com...
www.defense-update.com...


Milan :

Picture : www.army-technology.com...
System : www.army-technology.com...
Specifications : www.army-technology.com...