Lakes on Titan! (Pics)

Saturn's moon Titan was once thought to conceal a global ocean of methane and ethane beneath its smoggy atmosphere. However, while the landforms seen by Cassini and Huygens show ample evidence of past modification by the action of flowing liquids, actual bodies of present liquid have proven elusive through more than two years of investigation. Until now. During a July 22, 2006 flyby, Cassini's RADAR instrument has finally unveiled what appears to be a land of lakes in Titan's northern polar regions.

Source



[edit on 25/7/06 by Prote]

Considering that Cassini just arrived to Saturnian orbit about two yeas ago, I would say that even if they had delayed in releasing this, it wasn't by much. Besides, why would they need to withhold something like this? Secondly, how could they?

That's what just baffles me about all of these "NASA/ESA/gov't is withholding information on space" ideas. There are just so many people behind it all, that it would be impossible to pay them all off, keep them quiet, or change the information before it reaches them.

Why do you think that? What benefit could possibly be had by conspiring to cover this up? You think there's life swimming around in that methane? You think we have the ability to detect that life, and have already done so? What evidence do you have that could support this conclusion?

Those lakes were spotted on the most recent Titan flyby, which was only three days ago ! Apparently, Titan's north pole has been cloaked in shadow since Cassini arrived at the Saturnian system, and this was the first opportunity to image that particular area.

OK, a mistake to put the article with an opinion, should have thought about that more. Yeah I have my share of conspiracy theories about pretty much everything and I am suspicious of every officially released image or article, some call it paranoid, others call it nuts, some may say healthy.

Either way, I wanted to share the lakes despite my conspiracy theories, I think it is very positive. I won't go into all of my paranoid ramblings here as this is about titans lakes and is the first real confirmation of anything like this on a rocky body within the SS. I'm also interested in Europa regarding the possibility of marine life there. These are all small steps but however small the step, it's a step forward.

I'm happy to debate and share opinion about these lakes, we'll have argue the toss about evidence for my beliefs elsewhere.

[edit on 25/7/06 by Prote]

There's nothing wrong with sharing your opinion - no one said you couldn't do that. Just some of us have differing opinions and would like to know how/why you came to have yours. Is that wrong of us? I don't think so either...

If you think there is life there, why don't you tell us why, how you think it would survive, where you feel it would live, etc? It's really easy to come online and say "Blah blah blah," but it takes a lot more to come online and say "Blah blah blah because..." Could you take that extra step?

Originally posted by cmdrkeenkid
There's nothing wrong with sharing your opinion - no one said you couldn't do that. Just some of us have differing opinions and would like to know how/why you came to have yours. Is that wrong of us? I don't think so either...

No it's not wrong, but I posted a link and synopsis of the discovery of lakes on titan. Do you really think we won't get a tad off topic if I start posting all the stuff relating to how I draw a conclusion or explaining why I believe what I do. The mistake was in posting THAT opinion not AN opinion. I should have posted why I think it's interesting, not that I think it's part of anything else. My apologies for this, let's move on.

If you think there is life there, why don't you tell us why, how you think it would survive, where you feel it would live, etc? It's really easy to come online and say "Blah blah blah," but it takes a lot more to come online and say "Blah blah blah because..." Could you take that extra step?

I didn't mention life on Titan but now there are lakes, yes I can easily consider it, even though it is likely methane. Were you aksing about Europa? I am hoping we will find life on Europa. The reasons being the (supposed) ice sheets covering the surface potentially riding on water oceans, heated by underground vents etc. If there is indeed an ocean here, whether it is water, or not, I think there will be life there.

i say photoshop, they did not even bring men to the moon how could they come so close to titan?

or have we been to mars in the 60ties already? were the 2 shuttleaccidents faked and did they use the shuttles to bring down the WTC instead(you read it here first, remember to credit me if you use it)?

i m confused now please help me conspirationexperts!

Originally posted by Prote
Do you really think we won't get a tad off topic if I start posting all the stuff relating to how I draw a conclusion or explaining why I believe what I do.

I wouldn't consider it off-topic since you opened up the thread by saying, "just think we probably already knew this and a lot more and wonder how much stuff is gonna be filtered to the sheeples over the next few years."

That kind of puts it well into the depths of your thoughts on conspiracy topics...

Originally posted by hoeon
i say photoshop, they did not even bring men to the moon how could they come so close to titan?

I'd suggest a read through of this thread: An End to the Moon Conspiracy! Actually read through it, as it should answer alot of your questions.

Also, from that comment, I get the impression that you may think Cassini is manned... It isn't. And if you knew that, then are you insinuating that the dozens of missions that NASA, ESA, JAXA, etc, etc, etc have all launched have all been one massive, elaborate photoshop extravaganza?

Either way, how do you assume that the powers that be are silencing the millions of people that have been behind all of these missions. The engineers, the scientists, the students, and everyone else.

or have we been to mars in the 60ties already? were the 2 shuttleaccidents faked and did they use the shuttles to bring down the WTC instead(you read it here first, remember to credit me if you use it)?

Uh... What the...?

I get the feeling that this is another "sarcasm" episode, cmdrkeenkid

Please...no more off-topic one-liners

The subject is interesting enough to stand on its own and the science behind it is evolving.

"The news is lakes, lots of lakes!" said Cassini RADAR team member Rosaly Lopes. The lake-like features are "circular or kidney-shaped and very radar-dark -- the darkest things we have seen. Morphologically, they look much like lakes on Earth. There are drainage features around the sides of lakes."

from Prote's
link

i am just wondering why everyone is so intrigued by the places in our solar system. we know that there is no life ( that is worth anything) here. why dont they look somewhere else. if they do find microscopic organisms on one of the moons of the planets, what is that really going to do, it wont help us. all it will do is make all these people in NASA and all the organization spend all this money( that could be spent elsewhere) trying to go somewhere with it, and it will probably end up no where any way.
i think that the only reason that scientist want to beleive that there is life on places is to prove that there is no god.
this is a little off subject, but, it just seems to coincidental that we just ended up here with the perfect atmosphere, perfect sun distance , perfect moon that affects our oceans, and food and plants that allow us to breathe, that just seems a little to perfect to just be like BOOM,... then all of a sudden we are here. does anyone agree.
maybe god gave the other planets and stuff little things like these lakes for example to give us something to do, another way to expand our minds. WHO KNOWS???? anyway

im out
-mindtrip02

IMHO, the very first pic we saw of titan, revealed a shallow "marsh bed" of liquid a few centimeters thick...

If you look closely at the original pics, it looks like all those "rocks" are sitting in very shallow liguid, with even a few under water, that look a little darker (for being under the surface).

I also saw those "oceans" and lakes when the first orbital pics were coming in...

with a different atmosphere basis (methane), it makes it look very earthlike for being so much colder...
and i do think there is life there... it would be hard not to have it there...
lots of chemical processes to replace photosythesis...
lots of methane...
my bet is that the rocks we saw, are actually a plant level life form...

Am I right in thinking that this would be the FIRST discovery of a liquid (other than Ice) on the surface of a rocky planet or moon?

That's probably correct, unless you count the lava spewing out of Io's volcanoes !

Wow, lots of stuff in this thread; where to start?

Prote: if I may ask for a large favor--please don't delete your opening comments like that in the future. I understand why you did it, but it took me about five minutes reading back and forth to figure out why you were getting reamed for having a conspiracy slant. All I saw was an article excerpt and a link; thought I was loosing what little mind I had left.

On the main topic (ie the lakes in particular), I think this is a great discovery. It's the first I've heard of surface liquid--outside of molten rock--being discovered elsewhere. I know Europa is claimed to have oceans under it's surface; decent difference there though. BTW, are Europa's oceans actually confirmed, or just speculation?

I'm sure NASA (amongst countless other gov't entities) would definitely withold information from the general public. For starters, they would want to ensure they understand perfectly what information they have before releasing it. It's not exactly good publicity to say something like "We found this neat little thingamajigger on a picture. Any ideas? Anyone?" Once they have at least a good theory of what something is though, they'll let it out.

Aside from that, remember the hubub over the Mars rock? The official line was something like "we have a meteorite that has features that might be evidence of possible organic activity." The media took that and changed it into "we've found life on Mars." If I were in their shoes, I'd be very leary of letting out anything that might have any such connotations.

While I don't want to take this into the realms of science vs. religion or creationism vs. evolution, I would like to respond to your post mindtrip02. For one, any life is worth more than you or I could ever give to replace it with, not just something that can work a computer or fly a space ship. If they find bacteria on Titan that does nothing but eat methane and defecate all day long, it's a new life form that we've never encountered before. What could we learn from it? How to survive in such a hostile environment possibly. Or maybe just that even in such a strange world, life is possible. That'd change a lot of beliefs. And who's to say it would prove there is no God? Couldn't the God that placed us here have placed life elsewhere?

You say that our current situation--location of the earth and moon, content of the atmosphere, etc.--is so perfect for life. How do we know that our species wouldn't have adapted to life elsewhere over millions of years? Perhaps there's plenty of other species in this kooky universe that look at Earth as the most hostile environment around--too much heat, poisonous oceans of water instead of what they've adapted to, an ultra corrossive atmosphere that reacts with their skin and kills them on contact.

Just my thoughts. Good find though, BTW.

Originally posted by MCory1
Wow, lots of stuff in this thread; where to start?

Prote: if I may ask for a large favor--please don't delete your opening comments like that in the future. I understand why you did it, but it took me about five minutes reading back and forth to figure out why you were getting reamed for having a conspiracy slant. All I saw was an article excerpt and a link; thought I was loosing what little mind I had left.

Yup, fair comment, but the comment actually took the thread away from my reasons of posting the article, I realised I made a mistake when the replies came in. The comment would have been better served if I posted this in the UFO forum but my excuse is that im a n00b I know for next time!

On the main topic (ie the lakes in particular), I think this is a great discovery. It's the first I've heard of surface liquid--outside of molten rock--being discovered elsewhere. I know Europa is claimed to have oceans under it's surface; decent difference there though. BTW, are Europa's oceans actually confirmed, or just speculation?

My understanding is that this is speculation. We know (or we think we know) that the massive cracked surface is as a result of the surface being ice sheets and the rotation of the body and the gravitational pull of the parent planet places stresses on the ice and breaks it.

We have speculated that if it is ice, then there is likely to be an ocean underneath. If the core is molten, we further speculate that just as in our own oceans, there would be underwater vents. On earth, life is rampant near these vents, desite the temps and composition of the escaping gases so it is a small leap to think life could be on Europa. Albeit, not little green men. But I don;t think we "know for sure" any of this.

I'm sure NASA (amongst countless other gov't entities) would definitely withold information from the general public. For starters, they would want to ensure they understand perfectly what information they have before releasing it. It's not exactly good publicity to say something like "We found this neat little thingamajigger on a picture. Any ideas? Anyone?" Once they have at least a good theory of what something is though, they'll let it out.

Agreed. The reason I think this is significant is because they have been adamant that all other planets and moons in our solar system are dead or void of life. In the event this is not the case, they have to get us used to the idea about life elsewhere but it needs to be done slowly. I am just waiting for something like this Titan lakes to show up so in a few years time, they can say, hey there is life albeit micribes as we suspected. No danger etc and BTW its on a tiny rocky body a few hundred million miles away. No panic there but a small step in human de sensitisation to "alien" life.

Aside from that, remember the hubub over the Mars rock? The official line was something like "we have a meteorite that has features that might be evidence of possible organic activity." The media took that and changed it into "we've found life on Mars." If I were in their shoes, I'd be very leary of letting out anything that might have any such connotations.

Right! My theory is that the powers that be have dug a huge hole for themselves (speculation), they need to start releasing small things. This titan find is one such small thing.

Just my thoughts. Good find though, BTW.

And thank you for them. I think this is important, exciting and positive no matter what your "beliefs" are. (Maybe that should have been my opening opinion )

[edit on 26/7/06 by Prote]

It's always raining on Titan!

New research from NASA, published in the journal Nature suggests that it's always raining on Titan. Not thunderstorms, but a low level liquid methane drizzle that never stops. When Huygens landed onto the surface of Titan, it came down with a splat, presumably into mud. Scientists estimate that the amount of rain amounts to about 5 cm (2 inches) a year of accumulation - the same amount that falls in Death Valley on Earth. But this rain falls steadily, keeping the ground relatively damp.

Full Article

Data from Hygens probe.

When ESA’s Huygens probe landed on the surface of Saturn’s moon Titan last year, it continued to transmit data for 71 minutes. The signal relayed through Cassini had a strange fluctuation in power as the angle between the lander and spacecraft changed. Researchers were able to reproduce this power oscillation when they realized that the signal was bouncing off of pebbles on Titan’s surface. They were able calculate that the surface around Huygens is mostly flat

Full Article

Originally posted by Prote

Agreed. The reason I think this is significant is because they have been adamant that all other planets and moons in our solar system are dead or void of life. In the event this is not the case, they have to get us used to the idea about life elsewhere but it needs to be done slowly. I am just waiting for something like this Titan lakes to show up so in a few years time, they can say, hey there is life albeit micribes as we suspected. No danger etc and BTW its on a tiny rocky body a few hundred million miles away. No panic there but a small step in human de sensitisation to "alien" life.

What are you talking about? "They" have been saying that there are methane lakes and/or oceans on Titan for two decades now. They have also recently discovered liquid water on Enceladus, (unlike Europa, where liquid water is theorized to exists vs. discovered).

"They" haven't insisted that our solar system is dead. In fact, there is a working theory explaining how life can exist on Venus, Mars, Enceladus, Titan, Europa, Io, all four gas giants, Triton and even Pluto and KBO's.

Why on earth would the people of Earth need to be slowly introduced to the existance of extraterrestial life?