The United States was NOT founded on Christianity!

Originally posted by BaastetNoir

hmmm... this says otherwise. But than again, if it is a vaccien that can cause problems in the poor girls reproductive system, why use ? So they can later on possibly have deformed children? If there are so many doubts about this treatment than it should not be used.

It is obvious that you don't know what you're talking about inre the HPV-vaccine.

FYI

Unfortunately, some social conservatives have turned an obsession with virginity into deadly public policy. The controversy over the new cervical-cancer vaccine is a twisted example.

This vaccine can stop a cancer that kills about 4,000 American women a year. The Centers for Disease Control advisory committee recently recommended that the vaccine be given to all girls by age 13. Several states are considering proposals to make the vaccine mandatory, like the shots for polio and measles. Some social conservatives, however, are fighting these efforts.

HPV-Vaccine

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Give me an example of a Religion that DOES and LEGALIZAES gay marriages. I'll wait.

There are many New Age religions that support gay marriage. Wicca being one. They may not advocate it, but they sure allow it. By the way religions don't LEGALIZE anything.

How many women get un-wanted preganncies? how many teenagers? Millions.. so there you have your answer. Its already bad enough as it is, noone needs to make it worse udner the excuse of "saving lifes" .

How would it make it worse? Do you know a lot of people who will get pregnant and have abortions just so they can use embryonic cells?

Bush only controlled the federal funding for it... he didn't stop it

The legislative branch sought to expand research, because there are a lot of restrictions. That is like me saying, that I donated a box for you to live in, and then someone wanted to buy you a house, and I say no. Well at least you have a BOX to live in. How ungrateful you are hehe.

You know very well that these labs don't use only naturally aborted babies... and if you beleive that, you need a reality check up.

I know they don't use natually aborted babies, I never said that. What I did say though, is that the fetuses are discarded (aborted for many reasons), and will not be put to use. So why can't aborted fetuses be used for something to further medical advancements? Of course it makes more sense to just throw them away.

They may seek it, but how exactly will they get it, when THEY ARE NOT a majority ?

I don't care if Ghandi and Mother Theresa are trying to seek control of this nation. Nobody should have control of this nation, even the majority of people [Christians].

The nation wasn't suppose to have any of what ? Religion? where did you get that ?
what exactly was this Nation not suppose to have ?

People are allowed to have any religion they want. It is called Freedom of Religion. The government is supposed to be free from any religious influence, it is called Separation of Church and State. Read your constitution, it is all there.

Originally posted by Johannmon
Let me respond by saying that the above post of quotes is erroneous in its conclusion and that the vast body of evidence that is the writings and quotes by the founding fathers afirm that while our government is not religious in nature it is certainly founded on CHRISTIAN principles. Further the founding fathers considered christian virtue and values essential to the continuance of this experiment called democracy and self rule. I will provide a few quotes of my own to offset the above. If you do comprehensive research of the writings of the founding fathers you will be forced to conclude that the quotes above are misleading concerning their intent and opinion.

First George Washington: Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor;

This is from a public address on the day he established thanksgiving as a national holiday. This quote makes it abundandly clear where President Washington placed the responsiblity of government toward the almighty. If you want to read the rest of this document which is full of governmental references to God look herelink

Of similar tone and verbage is the Official proclaimation by John Hancock, serving as govenor commemorating thanksgiving. I do earnestly recommend, that we may join the penitent confession of our Sins, and implore the further continuance of the Divine Protection, and Blessings of Heaven upon this People; especially that He would be graciously pleased to direct, and prosper the Administration of the Federal Government, and of this, and the other States in the Union

John Adams also acknowledged the role of the almighty in government and declaired a day of prayer and fasting while govenor of MA. THE supreme Ruler of the Universe, having been pleased, in the course of his Providence, to establish the Independence of the United States of America, and to cause them to assume their rank, amount the nations of the Earth, and bless them with Liberty, Peace and Plenty; we ought to be led by Religious feelings of Gratitude; and to walk before Him, in all Humility, according to his most Holy Law.-But, as the depravity of our Hearts has, in so many instances drawn us aside from the path of duty, so that we have frequently offended our Divine and Merciful Benefactor; it is therefore highly incumbent on us, according to the ancient and laudable practice of our pious Ancestors, to open the year by a public and solemn Fast.-That with true repentance and contrition of Heart, we may unitedly implore the forgiveness of our Sins, through the merits of Jesus Christ, and humbly supplicate our Heavenly Father, to grant us the aids of his Grace, for the amendment of our Hearts and Lives, and vouchsafe his smiles upon our temporal concerns:

John Adams made a similar proclaimation as for a national day of prayer and fasting when he was president. Here is his quote: AS the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and blessing of Almighty God; and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him,

As to the infamous author of "The Age of Reason" Thomas Payne, He was so reviled by society at the time for what was considered sacriligious tripe that he was buried in a farmers field because there was no cemetary that would accept his corpse. Benjamin Franklin sternly warned him not to print his book because of its attack on what Franklin believed to be essential to right living, namely religion. see link

As to the infamous wall of separation between church and state, you should read the whole letter not just the misquoted phrase that the supreme court based its decision on. Here is the whole letter concerning the supposed separation which is no separtion at all. Link to letter

I will provide one more link for you. It is to George Washington's farewell address. If you want to know Washington's opinion on God in Government, his last words in office should be quite pertinant. Link

And lest I portray Payne in too harsh a light, one should read what he said about the teaching of science in France. link

If you want to play revisionist and justify your own culture by misquoting the founding fathers go ahead in your ignorance. I can prove to you by misuse of quotation that Jesus wanted people to be filled with demons but that does not make that statement true. Neither does the original post prove that this country was secular at its inception.

Hmm Johannmon, where in our government/constitution does it have Christian principles? I notice separation of church and state, freedom of any religion? Those quotes I have above are genuine, and they are pretty self explannatory. What about Thomas Jefferson's quote about "All religions are the same-They are all based of fables and mythologies". Sounds like a true Christian to me. Many leaders have used the terms god and jesus to invoke vision and commitment in the citizens. Christians were the majority back then as they are now. I would probably even use God in speeches and leave out it in the government back then to rally support (which was done).

Many of the founding fathers were deists, desist are not Christians. John Adams was a unitarian. Benjamin Franklin was a pretty shady character doing some questionable things.

I mean you can think our nation was founded on the Christian religion, that is okay. Now if you said Jesus's teachings (which I don't consider the Christian religion), inspired the founding fathers I would probably agree with you.

The truth is, many things of religious influence was instated after the Founding fathers. And them being from Europe, and going through all the s*** religion caused there, it is no wonder they wanted to create a secular nation

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
Give me an example of a Religion that DOES and LEGALIZAES gay marriages. I'll wait.

That's just the point. Religion is in no position to "legalize" anything. Marriage is a legal institution. It doesn't require any religious input at all. However, with the stranglehold that the church has on the government, religion does indeed drive the politicians. And it's against the Constitution.

And by the way, same-sex marriage is NOT a new thing.

One of the recurring clichés of the same-sex marriage debate is that the very notion of such a thing is a radical departure from anything entertained before in human history. Nothing, however, could be further from the truth. In many cultures and in many eras, the issue has emerged-and the themes of the arguments are quirkily similar.
...
In seventeenth-century China and nineteenth-century Africa, for example, the institution seems identical to opposite-sex marriage.
Read More Here

Good thread!

Now I think I see what the purpose of this thread was--to bait the religious right into fighting.

Also what about the Founding Fathers and how many were Masons?

I mean you can think our nation was founded on the Christian religion, that is okay. Now if you said Jesus's teachings (which I don't consider the Christian religion)

I guess you and I agree that the nation was founded on christian principles. I say this only because of your admission that the nation was founded on Jesus teaching. Christian by definition is a "Christ like one" hence anyone following Christian principles is following Jesus teaching. Not all things done in the name of Christ or Christianity are christian acts or based on christian principles. Often people have used and still use the church and christianity as a tool to power.

The fouding fathers had the wisdom to create a government that limited the ability of such people to use religion as a tool to power while still including its free expression in all areas of private and civic life. Why else would the supreme court, and each session of congress begin with prayer?

The supreme court in the last 50 years has perverted the intent of the constitutional clause concerning religion to mean that there shall be no expression of religion in civic life. Hence no prayers in schools despite the fact that most of the signers of the constitution had themselves prayed in school and some of the even wrote text books for school that used the bible and scriptures as learning tools and required reading. Hence also no display of the 10 commandments on public grounds despite the fact that the 10 commandments are permanently emblazened upon the supreme court building itself.

I am afraid our courts have jumped off into the bottomless pit of anarchy by erasing the obvious intent of law and replacing it with their own viewpoint. To interpret0 law by personal viewpoint is at best the seeds of dictatorship and at worst the begining of the cancer of lawlessness where opinion rules instead of law.

If you don't like what the founding fathers intended in the constitution then ammend it. Don't just muck it up with judicial activism. That will bring about the destruction of freedom, not the expansion of it. If you want gay marriage, ammend the constitution to include it or have congress pass law to include it. Just don't go find some extremest judge or mayor who is willing to pevert the law in order to further your agenda. In doing that you crumble the foundations that have built this great society that we now live in.

Originally posted by ProjectChaos
Also what about the Founding Fathers and how many were Masons?

Since it hasn't been addressed,.....

If I followed the Scripting of the National Treasure Movie correctly , there where 9 Masonic signatures upon the Declaration of Independance

And there seemed to be some others that had tendancies that open the doors enough to be suspious about this

THE MASONIC FOUNDATIONS OF THE UNITED STATES
www.watch.pair.com...

One recent historical account of Freemasonry, THE TEMPLE & THE LODGE, boast instead of the profound influence of Freemasonry on the founding documents, (while carefully trying to avoid creating the impression of a Masonic conspiracy):

"Of the fifty-six signatories of the Declaration of Independence, only nine can definitely be identified as Freemasons, while ten others may possibly have been. Of the general officers in the Continental Army, there were so far as documentation can establish, thirty-three Freemasons out of seventy-four. Granted the known Freemasons were, as a rule, more prominent, more instrumental in shaping the course of events than their unaffiliated colleagues...

The text goes on and the site offers various associated links to the matter.

I hope it this does answer your question, and anyothers that may arise.

Ciao

Shane



[edit on 5-8-2006 by Shane]

Thomas Jefferson: "The Christian god is cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust".

I agree with Johannmon & would disagree with Thomas Jefferson here - if he is referring to the Old Testament Deity then I would replace his use of the word "Christianity" with that of "Judaism". There is still quite a bit of debate on whether the God that Jesus referred to as his Father was this so-called "cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust" God or another God altogether. Comparing the Characteristic Attributes of "God" in both the New & Old Testaments - I would say they are not the same - that GRACE entered the picture somewhere along the way!

Wow, I just disagreed with Thomas Jefferson - COOL!

Shane - the founding Fathers based their new Creation on the Greco-Roman system - a Democratic Republic.
Yes, many of the Founding Fathers were Freemasons - is anyone out there shocked by this at this point? It has been well known for a while now!

[edit on 5-8-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 5-8-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente

Shane - the founding Fathers based their new Creation on the Greco-Roman system - a Democratic Republic.

Yes, a Demoncratic Representative Form of Governance

Yes, many of the Founding Fathers were Freemasons - is anyone out there shocked by this at this point? It has been well known for a while now!

But someone should tell the Christians and maybe even GWB. You wouldn't think they knew.

Ciao

Shane

Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." John Adams, February 22, 1756

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible"
George Washington

Spoken to the chiefs of the Delaware Indian Tribe:
"You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ… Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention.” George Washington


"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principals of civil government with the principles of Christianity.”
John Quincy Adams

“And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that His justice cannot sleep forever.”
Thomas Jefferson

"The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity." Samuel Adams

"This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ will give them one which will make them rich indeed."
Patrick Henry


Enough said? If not let me know; I can supply as many quotes and excerpts from early government documents to fill a library.

Exactly why is it that gay marraige terrifies the god fearing folk so much? What do two people that want to marry affect you in any manner, shape or form? Why isnt there Christians railing against Pat Robertsons appropiations of 700 Club Funds for the purchase of his African Diamond Mines? Where are the investigations of Falwells Political money contributions? Ralph Reed commits felonies to rip off Indian tribes of 30 million, but he is the Christian Poster Boy for Congress....Wash your own laundry first.

And we need to seperate "Christian" from people that cling to the Bible as if it supplies oxygen. Christ certainly didnt own a Bible, but we are supposed to live our lives according the hallucinegenic ramblings of people who lived in Caves ..?
( book of revelations). Give me a break. Paul created Christianity, so if you are beholden to the NT and cannot accept the precepts Christ left you, your beliefs are Pauline, not Christian.

Christ taught Against these issues. The bible has become idolatry, worshipping a book, loving an object and hating your fellow human being.
A book assembled by emperors terrified of losing power, of Popes scheming to gain power, of men driven to subjegate women....its a real barn burner.

Thank God our founding Fathers saw through the hypocrisy and provided firewalls to prevent insane religious nuts from running the Nation.
I am looking forward to when people finally wake from this slumber and see organized religion is a falsehood, and they have been lied too these 2 thousand years.

Originally posted by lightseeker


Enough said? If not let me know; I can supply as many quotes and excerpts from early government documents to fill a library.

How about you show evidence in the constitution and our government (the original one), that supports the US was founded on Christianity? You can't. Go find the name Jesus in the constitution. Exactly you can't. Go find separation of church and state (meaning, there should be a separation of religion and politics). You can find that

Don't deceive yourself.

Originally posted by Astronomer70
Now I think I see what the purpose of this thread was--to bait the religious right into fighting.

Since something disagrees with the ignorance of the religous right it is baiting? Is that like saying all 9/11 COnspiracy topics are to bait people who think Bush&Co had nothing to do with 9/11 by ignoring the evidence.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
Give me an example of a Religion that DOES and LEGALIZAES gay marriages. I'll wait.

That's just the point. Religion is in no position to "legalize" anything. Marriage is a legal institution. It doesn't require any religious input at all. However, with the stranglehold that the church has on the government, religion does indeed drive the politicians. And it's against the Constitution.

How about as I have raised in other posts that marriage should NOT be a legal institution as its roots are based in religion reguardless of what religion that is. Civil Unions should be allowed for everyone and should have the same right marriage does now. Why shouldent non-sexual people, or best friends have the same rights as a gay or strait couple?

chaos makes a good point

i have friends that are like brothers and sisters to me, why should i not have the right to attend to them if they are in need?

we need to have some sort of legal union that allows you to act as a sibling

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
Oh no dear .. YOU are the one who needs to RESEARCH PLENTY !... I never said homosexuality didn't exist before. I said NO RELIGON allows gay marriage. not even the Greeks or the Romans or even Pagans...

Wow, are you misinformed. I don't know of any Pagan group that DOESN'T allow same sex marriage. And so do many Jewish temples. My 2 gay friends just had a civil union and on the invitation, it said that in the eyes of the Jewish faith, they were legally married.

Then there is the Metropolitan Community Church, a LEGAL church that was founded by and for gays. They are a Christian church and they perform marriages for gay and lesbian couples.

Then there are the numerous Christian churches in the San Francisco area (where I used to live) which perform marriages for same sex couples. And since Buddhism isn't a religion, it's a philosophy it wouldn't count, but I've studied it and never found any mention one way or the other about homosexuality.

To my recollection, I don't remember Jesus saying anything in the Bible about marriage being strictly between a man and a woman and I had Bible study all the way through school until I finished high school. Nor does the Constitution.

Originally posted by BaastetNoir



Why ? if you're gay, than you also know that marriage IS between MAn & woman, In EVERY RELGION. You tell me what religion allows gay marriage? So why balem it only on Christianity. ??? why ? why not blame it on Buddhism? they don't allow gay marriage either.

Thought I'd point out thats there is nothing in Buddhism that says gays can not get married or that being gay is wrong. In fact Buddhism is one of the very few religions that truly believe in equal rights for everyone and everything.

Those few of many restrictions Americans have that Elsenorpompom pointed out are there because leaders are making those decisions not in the best interests of the people but in the best interests of themselves and there religion which happens to be for the majority Christianity.

Until politicians can start thinking about what is best for the people and not what they believe in you will always be controlled by religion.