You are a racist if you don't want illegals in the US...?

BH, I am sorry to hear that you were one of the ones to go to Canada to buy medication because the prices are too high. The prices of medication here in the U.S. is really horrible and it's due to the drug companies. And yes, it does make a good topic to find out more about this and find some pro-active ways to make things better so that people in America can get the drugs they need without going into debt.

However, the reason why I used the example of Americans crossing into Canada is because they are crossing the border out of need pretty much in the same way that South Americans are crossing the Mexican border.

Both situations are pretty much alike, if you think about it.

Like it or not, Americans are taking advantage of the Canadian health system just like illegal immigrants are taking advantage of our health care system.

So, you must figure, by logic, that some Canadians might not be too happy with Americans crossing the border to get socialized health care--pharmaceutical or not.

And what if the Canadians decided to build a fence to keep Americans out of Canada to prevent them from buying drugs? The uproar would be tremendous. It would be a slap in the face of the United States, to say the least.

That's why I wonder if Canadians have a derogatory term for Americans crossing the border, since it's so easy in this country for some to pejoratively call people who immigrate illegally to the United States, "illegals".

With that being said, the problem with the word "illegal" is the same way that one would not want to be called any other derogatory term.

Does anyone think that illegal immigrants are so inhuman that they don't have feelings?

It goes beyond breaking the law. It's true that they do.

But just like no one likes to be called a pejorative term, I suppose that undocumented workers would not like it that they would be called "illegals".

But, people don't think about these things when they throw certain perjorative terms around. It is such because they don't care about the people they call in a rude manner. And because they don't care, they are expressing their anger at another human being.

If they truly wanted to not be considered "racist" in their speech, they would find another word to express their thoughts about undocumented workers.

How hard is it for those who use the term "illegals" to just say "illegal immigrants" when they refer to those who are not legal in America?

It must be very hard to say two words when expressing one's feelings concerning this problem of legality.

But, disrespect and cultural bias makes it easier to say "illegals" instead of "illegal immigrant".

It's not about prettying up a situation. It's about expressing concern about other human beings regardless of color.

And when people use the term "illegal", they aren't talking about the situation in a fair manner any more. They are expressing their contempt and hatred for another human being.





[edit on 22-7-2006 by ceci2006]

ceci, something is wrong with your reasoning.

ok, let's stop calling them illegal aliens, and start simply calling them criminals. it's what we do with everyone else that fits the bill. we should also stop calling people who kill people 'murderers', people who steal 'thieves', and people who smoke a lot of marijuana and neglect their own personal hygeine while dreaming up hyper-sensitive terms to address people by as 'hippies'.

furthermore, assigning the term 'illegal alien' to an illegal alien is not racist - but assuming that someone is speaking of a particular race IS. therefore, i must infer that you are being a racist by using the term solely in reference to mexicans. i'm sorry, middle-americans.

[edit on 22-7-2006 by 25cents]

I'm just saying that people ought to be more respectful of others. It has nothing to do with calling anyone racist. That is not my intent.

South Americans and Mexicans, statistically (as the anti-illegal immigration crowd likes to tote) are here in greater numbers as undocumented workers. There's nothing racist about it. I would like to ask whether "illegals" is directed mainly at them compared to other illegal immigrants who are here.

However, I am still waiting for one Canadian to apply a pejorative term against Americans who cross the border for buying medicine outside of the country and taking advantage of their health system.





[edit on 22-7-2006 by ceci2006]

and i'm saying that if you're dead set on calling someone a racist, at least know what you're talking about.

anyway, i'd like to ask - when the hell did this turn into a discussion about purchasing goods from other countries? i don't give a damn if a whole gaggle of tourists from other countries come here and buy out our wal-marts. just go back home when you're done shopping. that's how capitalism works.

ps - i agree with you canucks on the draft dodgers though.

Originally quoted by 25cents
and i'm saying that if you're dead set on calling someone a racist, at least know what you're talking about.

anyway, i'd like to ask - when the hell did this turn into a discussion about purchasing goods from other countries? i don't give a damn if a whole gaggle of tourists from other countries come here and buy out our wal-marts. just go back home when you're done shopping. that's how capitalism works.

ps - i agree with you canucks on the draft dodgers though.

Nope. I'm not calling anyone a racist. I'm just staying on topic and debating with others about how they are sensitive to being called "a racist" for talking about "illegals".

I'm just saying if they don't want to be called a racist, to stop using pejorative terms such as "illegals". And simply talk about the subject.

About Canada: it's not about just "purchasing goods" and coming back.

There is a group of Americans who cross the border, take advantage of the Canadian health care system illegally (on both sides) and cross back.

There are also Americans who illegally cross into Canada and stay there.

In fact, these Americans do pretty much the same things as illegal immigrants do here.

I just wonder if Canadians have a term for Americans who cross the border and stay there illegally. And I would like to know how they treat the American illegal immigrants as they take jobs and suck up all the services from hardworking Canadians.

It has pretty much has to do with this topic. It's about whether it's nationalism or racism especially when refering to others pejoratively in regards to illegal immigration.

Btw, "draft dodger" is another American term.

[edit on 22-7-2006 by ceci2006]

well, in neither case would it necessarily be racism. nationalism, certainly, but not racism.

and once again, as stated previously - if you don't want someone referring to you as something, don't do that which will cause it. i'm not going to stop calling murderers murderers, and i'm not going to stop calling illegal immigrants illegal immigrants. if someone wants to think i'm a racist because of that, they can kiss my ass, and read a dictionary.

Whatever you say.

After all, you have expressed yourself. And made it loud and clear.

well since this a is a forum meant of truth, and i being the kind of person who says what most only think, I am a racist. There i said it. I have had black friends, i am white, i have had european friends, i have had all kinds of friends of different nationalities. My outlook on this is that America has its own problems right now and we dont' need to continue to accept them. do you know why they say we need illegals? for jobs that Americans are unwilling to do. Why are Americans unwilling to do this? COZ WE'RE SPOILED!!!!! WE'RE LAZY!!!!AND WE'RE FAT!!!!!!!!!!! In todays society its all about get rich quik schemes while doing the least amount of movement possible. Back in the day ppl used to work, and i mean would WORK jsut to make sure they had food to eat. Its almost like Americans expect things like food and their material possessions to be handed to them all while they sit back and watch tv or type stuff in message boards. bottom line is, i don't like illegals, and i know they do the jobs that i don't wanna do. But then again, drugs are illegal and so is drunk driving. And me being the fat lazy, tv watching American that i am, all i ever see on tv are those shows about ppl getting arrested for doing those said things and then getting upset coz they got caught. guess what, those things are illegal for a reason. so why is it ok for us to drive drunk, which can kill ppl, yet we get mad when someone else does something like cross our border and goes to work making money doing something that NONE of us would do. its my thinking that we aint' no better then those illegals trying to make an honest living.

speak for yourself pal. i'm willing to do anything i have to do to survive. i've done hard labor in the middle of an arizona summer to pay for gas money to get to and from college - don't tell me i'm lazy.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Like it or not, Americans are taking advantage of the Canadian health system just like illegal immigrants are taking advantage of our health care system.

Are you saying that US citizens are crossing the border illegally to take advantage of the Canadian medical system? If so, could you provide a source for this information because this is the first I've heard of it.

US Dept. of State
Tourists and temporary visitors do not qualify for this health care plan and are well advised to have their own insurance to cover any medical expenses.

Vermonters Getting Canadian Medical Care. Legally
There appears to be nothing illegal in what Dr. Bouchard and other Canadian doctors are doing. Citiizens of the US may visit Canadian doctors any time they wish. Provided an examination occurs, US citizens have little difficulty purchasing at least a month's supply of prescription drugs, and bringing them back across the border. The drugs must be declared and it is a good idea to have a copy of the prescription with you for customs examination. If you don't have an insurance plan that covers the high cost of drugs, then crossing the border and finding a Canadian doctor just makes good economic sense.

With that being said, the problem with the word "illegal" is the same way that one would not want to be called any other derogatory term.

What about drug dealer?
What about murderer?
What about thief?

You seem to have the same state of mind that many of the illegal immigrants have - that somehow they should be immune from the law that we have to follow. If they're not criminals, how do you define criminal? How do you define illegal? What's wrong with calling a spade a spade? How sensitive are people that adding an additional word (immigrant) makes the term somehow politically correct and acceptable and nice?

If a person can't handle being called an 'illegal' - if it hurts their feelings too much, perhaps they should stop breaking the law. If they have to come over here to support their families and work in the fields in the heat of Arizona and California, seems to me that being called an 'illegal' is the least of their problems!

Does anyone think that illegal immigrants are so inhuman that they don't have feelings?

NO! Where do you get that? You seem to want us to think that these people are inhuman and somehow beneath us. Sorry, we don't. That's a fantasy. That's feeding the whloe stigma that anyone who is against illegal immigration thinks they are inhuman or 'beneath us'. Well, I don't accept your judgment and I'm telling you that you are incorrect in your assumption.

You seem to have your mind made up that anyone who would use the term 'illegals' is coming from a position of moral superiority and judgment and you are incorrect. Many people use the term just like they would use "Mexican" (because someone is from Mexico) or Canuck. For many, it's simply a shorthand term that carries no animosity.

For some it does, but not for all.

If they truly wanted to not be considered "racist" in their speech, they would find another word to express their thoughts about undocumented workers.

Not necessarily. Everyone is not politically correct (Thank God!) If they were racist, they'd be using other terms, trust me. I live in New Mexico. I'm practically on the border. I hear what racist people call Mexicans. And it ain't "illegals". Although that term is used. That's one of the nicer terms.

How hard is it for those who use the term "illegals" to just say "illegal immigrants" when they refer to those who are not legal in America?

It's not hard at all. I do it. But I am not (and neither are you) the 'term police'. People are free to use the language they see fit. If their language causes others to call them racist, so be it. It's just that many times, they are wrong, hence this thread.

It's not about prettying up a situation. It's about expressing concern about other human beings regardless of color.

It's not about color either. Again, bringing race into this muddies the water. That's what this thread is about. By your statement above, you are assuming racism.

And when people use the term "illegal", they aren't talking about the situation in a fair manner any more. They are expressing their contempt and hatred for another human being.

Again, that's not necessarily true. And if they were... So what? What if US citizens are angry about this? What's wrong with that? I don't buy that the term is always out of that anger, and I don't buy that it's as strong as hatred, but what's wrong with being angry at someone?

Originally posted by ceci2006
However, I am still waiting for one Canadian to apply a pejorative term against Americans who cross the border for buying medicine outside of the country and taking advantage of their health system.

If I were to enter Canada illegally, I would FULLY expect to be called something derogatory AND I would FULLY expect to become part of their justice system.

Snazuolu - Thank you for your honesty.

Originally posted by 25cents
speak for yourself pal. i'm willing to do anything i have to do to survive. i've done hard labor in the middle of an arizona summer to pay for gas money to get to and from college - don't tell me i'm lazy.

i'm speaking of ALL Americans, even myself. we can't hold a candle to those illegals work ethics. They get out there in the heat and work fast for like 5 dollars a day. i SERIOUSLY doubt you ever did that much for that little...i know i haven't and unless someone on here is from the OLD SKOOL ways of work i doubt anyone else has either...

Originally posted by Snazuolu
i'm speaking of ALL Americans,

That's the problem.

No one person can speak for all persons in a group. Accurately. I can't speak for all women on any given subject because all women are different. And you can't (accurately) speak for all 'Americans' (or US citizens) because we're all different. We aren't all the same and there are some who would do whatever it takes.

But you certainly can speak for yourself.

Originally quoted by Benevolent Heretic
Are you saying that US citizens are crossing the border illegally to take advantage of the Canadian medical system? If so, could you provide a source for this information because this is the first I've heard of it.

Yes, Americans are taking advantage of the Health Care system in Canada. Here it is from the Globe and Mail. They are part of the "foreigners" who have been leaving the Canadian health care system with high bills because they refuse to pay the costs.

Officials look to recover foreigners' medical bills

Taxpayers in British Columbia are footing the medical bills for thousands of foreigners who visit the province, and government officials are looking at ways to get them to pay it back.

In a report, provincial Health Minister George Abbott said $10-million in unpaid bills have been racked up by foreigners who visit the province and obtain hospital care.
[...]
He said he's urging health authorities to look at new ways to recover lost money owed by those who have used B.C.'s hospitals or walk-in clinics while visiting.

"It's money that we would love to be able to put into other areas of health care," Ms. Germain said.

Last year, Interior Health revealed that the "bush boys," two American brothers who duped the town of Vernon by claiming they were raised in the woods, owed more than $50,000 in unpaid hospital bills.

Kyle Horn and his younger brother Roen racked up $68,000 worth of medical costs at Vernon Jubilee Hospital before they returned to their home in California two years ago.

I will answer your other questions later, but I wanted you to know that Americans are just as responsible for taking advantage of the system of other countries just like illegal immigrants do here. It proves that Americans are no better than the undocumented workers they describe when siphoning off services of another country.

In Canada, Americans are "illegals", "criminals" and "thieves"--especially when they don't pay medical bills and stiff the Canadian government and taxpayers with the costs.








[edit on 22-7-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
Yes, Americans are taking advantage of the Health Care system in Canada. Here it is from the Globe and Mail.

Thanks. I had no idea.

I wanted you to know that Americans are just as responsible for taking advantage of the system of other countries just like illegal immigrants do here.

And those 'Americans' are just as wrong and illegal as the illegal immigrants INTO this country. There's no argument from me there.

It proves that Americans are no better than the undocumented workers they describe when siphoning off services of another country.

Certainly the ones who illegally use the Canadian medical system are no better than those who illegally use the USA's public services. No one is trying to say that Americans are better than anyone else. Please understand that.

In Canada, Americans are "illegals", "criminals" and "thieves"--especially when they don't pay medical bills and stiff the Canadian government and taxpayers with the costs.

Agreed 100%. The US citizens who do this are illegal.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Agreed 100%. The US citizens who do this are illegal.

I agree too with all of that, and hey, interesting discussion BH, Ceci and all

The question is, would the average US citizen in Mexico illegally, call a Mexican a racist when the Mexican called them "un ilegal" (an illegal)? Well if you think about it, what kind of American would likely be there illegally to begin with? Probably not your educated, typical American! More likely, some kind of low life who has tentacles into crime, probably drinks too much and is too wacked out on drugs.

Get the picture? Of why it's probably not the best that Mexico has to offer crossing over the US border illegally?

But that's all besides the point. The point is, it's ILLEGAL, they ARE criminals, and they just can't deal with it without resorting to pulling the race card.

And if you think THAT's bad, try telling one that you think it would be best if they returned to their country, TO THEIR FACE. You'd better be ready.

Edit: add one word

[edit on 22-7-2006 by TrueAmerican]

Originally quoted by Benevolent Heretic
You seem to have the same state of mind that many of the illegal immigrants have - that somehow they should be immune from the law that we have to follow.

I said no such thing. And I've said many times before that they are breaking the law. But in the ranking of crimes, crossing the border in order to work is much lesser a crime than murder.

They are not immune from the law. And if they are caught, they should be deported.

But that doesn't mean that we should just call them 'illegals". Because it is pejorative. They are still people. And they should at least have the respect as human beings. Is that so hard?

If they're not criminals, how do you define criminal? How do you define illegal?

A criminal is someone who is caught breaking the law. Otherwise, if they are breaking the law and no one sees them, then there is nothing to hold them on in terms of criminality. And without being discovered breaking the law, does that make one a criminal?

A lot of the time, people "pronounce" criminality by "looks" and not "behavior". Now that is part of classist and cultural bias. It is also called "racial profiling".

Illegal, as a noun, is doing something not legal. As an adjective, "illegal(s)" is used to describe pejoratively people who have immigrated here and are undocumented. It not only stigmaticizes the people who are here without documentation, it also stigmatizes their children and relatives who have been born here. "Illegal" in this sense, dehumanizes the subject so much so that they should not be considered humanely as anyone else.

Thus, an "illegal" as an adjective is used in rude and inflammatory ways when describing the issue of illegal immigration.

And if "illegal" is mentioned long enough in the media with the connection of a certain type of person (i.e. South Americans, because they never show any other type of race as an illegal immigrant in the news), then people will not simply say "Mexican" or "South American" anymore. They'll just refer to anyone with those type of characteristics as an "illegal" whether it is true or not.

That is why cultural bias is involved. I'd be hard pressed for someone to call someone from Russia, Poland or Ireland an illegal. If they do, it would be a first.

What's wrong with calling a spade a spade? How sensitive are people that adding an additional word (immigrant) makes the term somehow politically correct and acceptable and nice?

Nothing is wrong with it if you mean it by its proper usage. But when people use "illegal", they often mean it in a pejorative sense.

It has nothing to do with political correctness. It does have to do with concern and respect for all human beings despite their station in life.

If you aren't concerned for all human beings, then by all means call them "illegals". But the use of the term really makes you seem disrepsectful of another person's humanity and dignity when you do so.

Race has nothing to do with it.

If a person can't handle being called an 'illegal' - if it hurts their feelings too much, perhaps they should stop breaking the law. If they have to come over here to support their families and work in the fields in the heat of Arizona and California, seems to me that being called an 'illegal' is the least of their problems

That's true. But there's two sides to this as well. It might be the least of their problems, but because of the stigmaticization of being called an "illegal", it will be a name that will follow them--even after they make themselves legal in the United States.

Calling someone an "illegal" pejoratively doesn't stop when you are sworn in as a naturalized citizen. There are enough culturally biased people out there that will not stop using the term even to mistake someone as "illegal" because it is ingrained in their mind-set to do so.

Derogatory names don't stop at the gate. They continue as long as they are in the mindset of everyday people.

It has nothing to do with sensitivity. It does have to do with having a conscience.

NO! Where do you get that? You seem to want us to think that these people are inhuman and somehow beneath us. Sorry, we don't. That's a fantasy. That's feeding the whloe stigma that anyone who is against illegal immigration thinks they are inhuman or 'beneath us'. Well, I don't accept your judgment and I'm telling you that you are incorrect in your assumption.

Then why are some posters on this board, when referring to illegal immigrants, call them "trash" and "vermin" in reference to the subject matter? Then, why do others talk about the "Mexican invasion"?

Obviously, by this terminology, someone thinks that illegal immigrants are "subhuman" and "beneath them". This is not true of everyone--but some people do.

It's not a fantasy. It's just being aware of some things that other people are not aware of when they say it. If not, the connotation of what was said and how it was used.

You seem to have your mind made up that anyone who would use the term 'illegals' is coming from a position of moral superiority and judgment and you are incorrect. Many people use the term just like they would use "Mexican" (because someone is from Mexico) or Canuck. For many, it's simply a shorthand term that carries no animosity.

For some it does, but not for all.

No, I don't have my mind made up about the word "illegal" and whether it is used on terms of superiority or not. I do have my mind made up that it is pejorative and rather disrespectful. And I have said so in many threads and in many ways.

And by its intent, it does carry animosity for a whole lot of people. They have said so in blogs, articles and even professional associations. Political Correctness also does not have anything to do with it. But there have been groups to ask the media to stop using the term to incorrectly describe those who have immigrated here without naturalization.

Not necessarily. Everyone is not politically correct (Thank God!) If they were racist, they'd be using other terms, trust me. I live in New Mexico. I'm practically on the border. I hear what racist people call Mexicans. And it ain't "illegals". Although that term is used. That's one of the nicer terms.

I've also heard what racist people call Mexicans (and anyone else of color for that matter). "Illegals", to me, is just a socially acceptable term to use pejoratively to describe a group of people. The media and political circles have made it acceptible because they do not realize that part of their constituents might be sensitive to such a term--especially when it describes their relatives.

In American newspapers in the 18th and 19th century, it was acceptable to use the "n-word" to describe black people. Same type of word. Same medium. Different times, except "illegal" is being replaced by the "n-word".

It's not hard at all. I do it. But I am not (and neither are you) the 'term police'. People are free to use the language they see fit. If their language causes others to call them racist, so be it. It's just that many times, they are wrong, hence this thread.

I've already admitted I'm not the "word police". In the end, it's up to the person and his/her conscience about what he/she tolerates. I'm just giving a heads up about how others might perceive the term.

That's my point. I'm not here to call anyone racist. I am expressing my problems with the usage of the word. That's all. Nothing more. I also have contributed that people might mistake you for being racist, if you easily let the word "illegal" slip out as much as you would say anything else less pejorative.

It's not about color either. Again, bringing race into this muddies the water. That's what this thread is about. By your statement above, you are assuming racism.

No I am not. This thread is also about the fear of being called racist for talking about illegal immigration. You've got to see both sides, if you want to handle that fear.

Furthermore you think it's problematic by bringing race into it. That tells me that there is something troubling about talking about illegal immigration when race is a part of it. That is why people are afraid of being called racist when talking about this.

No one can simply stay away from race when talking about illegal immigration--especially if they have an exact "picture" in their mind of what "illegals" look like.

Again, that's not necessarily true. And if they were... So what? What if US citizens are angry about this? What's wrong with that? I don't buy that the term is always out of that anger, and I don't buy that it's as strong as hatred, but what's wrong with being angry at someone?

It's not wrong to be angry. It just depends on what people do with that anger. Some take out their anger by burning a cross on someone's lawn. Others use their anger proactively by addressing their Congresspeople.

It makes a difference how people channel their anger ultimately.











[edit on 23-7-2006 by ceci2006]

Hello. BH asked me if I wouldn't mind dropping in to address the questions about Canada, illegal immigration and Americans buying meds here. I'll try to do my best, but I'm sure there are Canucks with different opinions than me.

First, because it's the easiest, the legalities of buying prescriptions from Canada. By Canadian law it is legal to buy a prescription from Canada but you have to get the prescription from a Canadian doctor that has seen you in person. Most internet pharmacies don't follow this law. The government hasn't decided what to do about them yet and some people want them shut down. There is some concern that pharmaceutical companies will restrict shipments resulting in shortages because when an American purchases in Canada, it cuts their profits. We are only supposed to use so much. Our system isn't set up to be America's drugstore. If it becomes too much of a burden on our purchasing program, the internet pharmacies will simply be shut down. They don't employ nearly enough people to be allowed to jeopardize our supply.

Illegal immigration and Canada is a big topic and I'm trying to make this relatively short. First, if there is a draft in the US then any American who comes because of it is not here illegally because it is a valid reason for asylum. I think most of the people that are here illegally are smuggled in and exploited. I don't worry about them at all, except for wanting them to get out of virtual slavery. The only time I worry about someone who is in the country illegally is if they commit crimes while they are here. Then I want them deported. The ones that are obeying our laws and not causing trouble aren't even an issue. They might be breaking the law by being here, but if they are behaving themselves, nobody cares.

As far as I know, we don't have any names for people that are here illegally. I thought asylum seeker might apply, but now that I've thought about it, asylum seekers are in the system so that makes them legal for the time being. I’d just call them someone who was here illegally. Boring I know, but it’s all I’ve got.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Furthermore you think it's problematic by bringing race into it.

It IS problematic, considering that race shouldn't even be entering into a discussion of LEGALITY.

That tells me that there is something troubling about talking about illegal immigration when race is a part of it. That is why people are afraid of being called racist when talking about this.

Who's AFRAID of being called a racist? Ha! Me? Puhleeease. :shk: The issue is I am not going to sit there and be called one, when I know, and they know too, that I am not a racist.

No one can simply stay away from race when talking about illegal immigration--especially if they have an exact "picture" in their mind of what "illegals" look like.

Nah. ILLEGALS can't stay away from race when talking about illegal immigration. Race was never an issue until their mind overloaded and could not face the fact that they have broken the law, making them a criminal. And I'm not going to even get involved in the semantics of what to call them, or which is the better term.

To all the people that think that illegals are fine here, then great. Go down to the INS and tell them to dissolve. Hell, we don't need em. We don't need them, the border patrol, or the immigration system cause it's just fine that anyone on the damn planet that wants to ought to be able to enter this country at will whenever they want- free to plunder, undercut market value labor rates, do crappy work with obvious lack of pride in it, abuse our healthcare system, pay no taxes, and to top it all off- send most of their damn money back home.

And if you still ain't had enough of me yet, then how bout all you people that think illegals should not be here put your actions where your mouth is, and turn a few of them in. That's right. To the INS. I challenge you. No no, I DARE YOU.

Um, True American, the INS doesn't exist anymore. You need to update yourself upon the latest moves of the Bush Adminstration.

Yes, the INS has been put to pasture. There's a new sheriff in town handling immigration now.



Duzey, thank you for your information as a Canadian. It clears up a lot about the matter regarding Americans crossing the border into Canada. And I am glad that Canadians have not developed any pejorative terms about American illegal immigrants in your country (apart from drug-buying and political asylum).

It shows that Americans have a lot to learn about the stigmaticization of other people.



[edit on 23-7-2006 by ceci2006]

www.uscis.gov...

Yeah so? INS, renamed and put under DHS? What, are you so out of main point options to discuss that you're going to argue semantics on the name of the service too? :shk: Weak, ceci, weak. But hey, it's all good. Other more astute members will not bite so easy on that loss-leader, though. At least, I hope not.