Eugenics Anyone?

Originally posted by Hamburglar

Why is it an abominable notion?

Because I don't know if I would make the cut.

Originally posted by Duzey

I just don't think that this kind of policy would be a good idea. I don't trust any government (or human being) enough to give them the power to forcibly sterilize people.

That there is the big fly in the ointment.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
We seem fixated on the idea of eugenics as birth control, but there are other aspects of eugenics. What about the idea of pairing couples based on genotypes and phenotypes?

Quite acceptable, and actually biologically desireable iif it is voluntary. This is where I'm about to step on my own argument, aren't I? Ok, ok. As a species, and looking at it from a survival point of view, it would be best. As a person who is willing and capable to take on personal responsibility, the choice is one I would like to retain.

Originally posted by Enkidu

If were up to me, Enkidu Hitler, I would take advantage of the latest technology to temporarily sterilize anyone of breeding age, male and female, until they were old enough, and could prove that they were emotionally and financially capable of raising children. Then we could unhook them and let them go at it at least until they proved themselves again incapable of handling the responsibility.

I'm glad you brought that up. I've often thought about a reproductive license. It would involve The Man quite a bit more than I'm comfortable with, but it would definitely be a start. Please Enkidu "Hitler", make it run smoother than the DMV!

Originally posted by hogtie

Please explain to me the causation of pedophelia, serial reproduction, and child abuse, and how it effects a market economy in such a way as that the proffits gained would preclude its cessation.

IMO - you are focusing on a dangerously narrow view of causation and presuming to separate behavior from environmental contamination. For example:


Our polluted world is full of triggers that cause strokes - including highly profitable chemicals and contaminants in our food, water and air, and common medications.

Strokes of any intensity can wreak havoc in the brain, causing a variety of symptoms including violence, anger, psychosis, anxiety, apathy, and personality change - which depend on the exact part of the brain affected by the stroke.

Unfortunately, most strokes are not "clinically evident" - they are silent and "invisible," and are not diagnosed.

Common behavioral and cognitive sequelae of stroke include depression, psychosis, anxiety, personality change, aphasia, and dysprosody among others...

***

Frontal lobe injuries, violence, and aggression

Knowledge stored in the human prefrontal cortex may exert control over more primitive behavioral reactions to environmental provocation. Therefore, following frontal lobe lesions, patients are more likely to use physical intimidation or verbal threats in potential or actual confrontational situations. ...ventromedial frontal lobe lesions increase the risk of aggressive and violent behavior.

***

Self-reported aggressive behavior in patients with stroke.

This study represents a first attempt to identify some of the clinical and pathoanatomical correlates of violent outbursts in patients with cerebrovascular accident. ...proximity of lesion to the frontal pole was one of the factors related to the self-reported irritable/violent behavior. ...the potential for anger and violence in patients with stroke has multiple clinical and neuropathological correlates, including greater cognitive impairment and left anterior hemisphere lesions.

***

Depression and Stroke Disease

Emotional disturbances following stroke have long been recognised. Whilst important states such as emotional lability and indifference are common and well recognised, they have received much less interest from the research community than anxiety and especially depressive syndromes occurring after stroke.

Depression has strong bidirectional relationships with both coronary artery disease (CAD) and stroke (Thomas et al., 2004). There have been many reports in "pure" depression syndromes, especially in older people, of an increase in subcortical lesions in both the white matter and the basal ganglia (O'Brien et al., 1996).

These lesions manifest as hyperintense lesions on MRI and are strongly associated with vascular risk factors and there is pathological evidence that such lesions are indeed due to cerebral ischaemia and cerebrovascular disease (CVD) (Thomas et al., 2002).

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Affective disorders and cerebral vascular disease.

Empirical studies have recently demonstrated that major and minor depressive disorders occur in 30-50% of stroke patients, and last more than one year without treatment... These mood disorders are not strongly associated with severity of impairment, demographic characteristics, social supports or prior personal history, but major depression is often strongly associated with left frontal or left basal ganglia lesions and pre-existing subcortical atrophy. ...Mania is a rare complication of stroke...

***

Emotionalism is common after stroke... found especially in patients with left frontal and temporal lesions.

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Depression and Stroke

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Aggressive behavior in patients with stroke

Several factors, such as severity of impairment, other psychopathology, and neurobiologic factors, appear to contribute to irritable and aggressive behavior in stroke patients.

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Mood disorders in long-term survivors of stroke: associations with brain lesion location and volume.

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Apathy following cerebrovascular lesions.

...apathy is a frequent finding among patients with acute stroke lesions and may coexist with important emotional and cognitive poststroke disturbances.

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Generalized anxiety disorder in stroke patients.

This prospective study examined the prevalence and longitudinal course of generalized anxiety disorder (GAD) after stroke and its comorbidity with major depression over time. The contributions of lesion characteristics, functional impairment, and psychosocial factors to the development of GAD after stroke were studied. ...GAD after stroke is a common and long-lasting affliction that interferes substantially with social life and functional recovery.

***

Behavior and Mood Disorders in Focal Brain Lesions

This is the first clinical reference work to specifically address the relationship of focal brain dysfunction to behavioral and emotional disorders, providing the most comprehensive account available of these manifestations of brain lesions including stroke, trauma, epilepsy, multiple sclerosis, and even neurosurgery. A worldwide team of neuroscientists and clinicians examines the links between regional brain dysfunction and disorders of mood, thought and affect processing, and behavior.

***

Mood changes after right-hemisphere lesions.

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Mood disorders following stroke

***

White Matter Changes in Depression and Alzheimer's Disease: A Review of Magnetic Resonance Imaging Studies

This article reviews magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) studies of white matter lesions in depression and Alzheimer's disease. Although conflicting reports exist, many studies show that white matter lesions are more prevalent in both conditions, with depression associated with deep white matter lesions (DWML) and Alzheimer's disease with periventricular lesions (PVL). In normal ageing and depression there is some evidence that such lesions may be associated with neuropsychological dysfunction...

***

Ischemic basis for deep white matter hyperintensities in major depression: a neuropathological study.

White matter hyperintensities on magnetic resonance imaging are increased in major depression in the deep white matter, especially in frontal areas. ...Deep white matter hyperintensities are more frequently due to cerebral ischemia, and such ischemic lesions are more frequently located at the level of dorsolateral prefrontal cortex in depressed subjects. Our findings strongly support the "vascular depression" hypothesis...

IMO, we are seeing a stroke epidemic with its attendant symptoms of "emotionalism," "behavioral sequelae," "mood disorders" and "affective disorders" - precursors to the development of Alzheimer's and dementia, which already are acknowledged as epidemic.

But hey. Who cares about the evidence. Let's just blame the victims - and their lifestyle choices.






Also see: Stroke and Depression: Frequently Asked Questions

posted by GradyPhilpott

Would you be so kind as to clarify, donwhite?

Yes, Mr GP. The question of eugenics involves the sterilization of people who are deemed to be incapable of caring for their offspring. it usually has reference to people we used to rate as IQ 70 or less. This situation arose often in facilities for the care of such mentally but not physically handicapped people.

My state of Ky used to keep 400 of those poor souls at a place near Dawson Springs. The facility became involved in a legal battle over the “right to reproduce” of people who could not care for their offspring, so the state closed the facility. I don’t know what happens to such people now.

Some contributors wanted to apply eugenics to pedophiles. Although despicable, it has only been in the past 15-20 years that pedophile has been on top of the radar screen. I wonder if we always had it but didn’t know it or what brought his topic up. No one can discuss pedophile rationally. My spell checker on WordPerfect wont even acknowledge p e d o p h I l I a. Maybe I’m misspelling it?

I just feel it is too hard to argue over castration in the context of pedophiles and call it eugenics. Sorry about that.

Actually, donwhite, now those who have low IQs, the level that you mention, are maintained in group homes or are adopted by families who are publicly subsidized and the women are maintained on Deprovera, so they are effectively sterilized. I've worked with that population and pregnancies among them is usually catastrophic for all involved, especially the children. These cases are always heartbreaking because the parents really want children, but they are incapable of understanding the needs of an infant.

I know that eugenics has a dark side, but I would like to see some emphasis on the subject without the implications of genocide and tyranny. Surely our intelligence can be applied to improve our species without trampling the rights of the individual.

Originally posted by hogtie

Originally posted by Hamburglar

Why is it an abominable notion?

Because I don't know if I would make the cut.

I appreciate the humor, but I am curious if you are being honest with me. If you say so, I will accept your word; but, frankly, it seems a rather petty (I don't mean to call you petty!) reason to make such a distinction between sterilization as punishment and sterilization for genetic reasons.

Posted by Soficrow

IMO - you are focusing on a narrow view of causation and presuming to separate behavior from environmental contamination. For example: Our polluted world is full of triggers that cause strokes - including highly profitable chemicals and contaminants in our food, water and air, and common medications. Strokes of any intensity can wreak havoc in the brain, causing a variety of symptoms including violence, anger, psychosis, anxiety, apathy, and personality change - which depend on the exact part of the brain affected by the stroke. Unfortunately, most strokes are not "clinically evident" - they are silent and "invisible," and are not diagnosed. [Edited by Don W]

The solution to an undesirable condition - stroke inducing environment - requires, 1) awareness, 2) information, 3) discussion, and 4) leadership to steer convictions into appropriate actions. And maybe more steps I have not included. Who, what, where, when, why and how.

My first encounter with eugenics came when reading about the work of Margaret Sanger, in the early nineteen hundreds. I think she was primally concerned with women’s rights but she regarded unwanted pregnancies as the largest single factor in the perpetuation of the second class status of women. Eugenics offered a way out of that dilemma. In her case, it was birth control. Eugenics was all the rage in the early 20th century. A new science. And the country and world was ready for anything new.

Politicians in some states enacted laws requiring sterilization on certain grounds. Frequently the trigger for action was the second child of an unwed mother. In some places eugenics was imposed as motioned in posts above, without the knowledge or consent of the person affected,. Ultimately this law - or set of laws - got to the US Supreme Court. It is my memory the court threw out the laws, perhaps on equal protection grounds, but I don’t know why. In any case, the experiment with legal compulsive eugenics was ended in the US.

Eugenics became a tool for the 1930s Nazi movement in Europe. They intended to produce a master race by careful selection of what they deemed to be desirable physical traits. Mainly, tall, lean, blond, blue-eyed and I suppose, malleable. Of course, that experiment in altering nature ended in total disaster and eugenics got a black eye it may never recover from. Perhaps we’d do better to try to imagine a new name for the same thing?

The eugenics movement has never revived. The theory is good. Avoid the undesirable when it is relatively easy and nearly cost-free. The problem is we are dealing with humans and most people have too much emotional attachment to let them deal with this issue rationally. I would urge more study so that when we finally realize the planet will only support 2 billion people long term, we can have alternative ways out of the demographic catastrophe on the horizon. Say around 2100.



[edit on 7/18/2006 by donwhite]

Instead of the serial posting I did yesterday, let me try to include everyone in one post.

Soficrow,
I realize that there is some research being done that would indicate a physical reason for some behaviors, but until that can be proven and treated effectively, there is still the problem of putting a child in their care. Some of the cases you linked don’t look like they have any way to treat them. Also, stroke and Alzheimer’s tend to afflict people no longer of childbearing years. I have spoken to some people researching neuroscience and behaviors, and the links are still kind of mysterious. So, you are talking about decades more of research, and generations born to people whom you claim can not control their behaviors. How does being able to take responsibility, or not, relate to the welfare of the child? It seems that you se the adult as the victim. Where does the child fit in? If you can not care for a child, or are violent, again I ask how you justify allowing them to conceive a child only to neglect it? While you see my examples as being in a vacuum, I’d like to say that I work with this population, all of these examples, on a regular basis, and it is my observation that cruelty and/or deliberate indifference are the predominant causes.

Donwhite,
Thanks for participating, especially since you had so much good info in your last post. Off the topic for just a moment, pedophelia seems relatively new as far as prosecution goes, but has always been present and extremely under reported. There have been huge improvements in investigative and evidence collecting techniques and technology. Also, there are more people trained to spot victims now. For example, being a school counselor is very different today than it was 20 years ago. But let me stop before I get too far off base. There are some that argue for chemical sterilization to stop sexual predators, but I haven’t seen any indication that it will work, since sexual abuse has many components, and sexual gratification is not the only factor. My goal is to keep them from producing their own victims. What concerns you have for eugenics, such as changing mores and “cleansing” I have as well.

Hamburgler,
“Abomination” may have been heavy handed. What I was thinking was about the scenarios that Donwhite stated so well. My attempt at humor was just to show that I don’t know what the limits of the social policy would be, because should something like this be implemented, I don’t have much trust in the policy making ability of politicians. I can’t remember all the details, but there is a town, in Missouri maybe, where the town won’t allow unmarried couples with children that are not the offspring of both couples to live there. There is a couple already in a house who have been served with some type of ordinance violation. I also think of things like the Tuskegee experiments, which are different I know. So, maybe it is that I see criminal and negligent activity as much more concrete to me, than trying to determine just biological eligibility.

GradyPhilpott,
Having had some experience with the people that you mentioned, here the concept of eugenics shows the pain of such a policy. Not that it would be wrong, but when speaking of people who have done nothing wrong, and are loving, and want to have a level of normalcy, the whole situation is terribly sad. I think one reason I am only suggesting this for the population that I have is that I’m not sure that I have guts to make a call (in reference to low functioning individuals) that tough. The other population group seems very easy, comparatively. But that is my own moral bias.

posted by hogtie

“ . . let me try to include everyone in one post.

Donwhite “ . . some argue for chemical sterilization to stop sexual predators . . sexual abuse has many components, and sexual gratification is not the only factor. My goal is to keep them from producing their own victims.

Hamburgler “ . . I don’t have much trust in the policy making ability of politicians . . “

GradyPhilpott “ . . the concept of eugenics shows the pain of such a policy . . one reason I am only suggesting this for the population I have is I’m not sure that I have guts to make a call that tough . . The other population group seems very easy, comparatively. But that is my own moral bias. [Edited by Don W]

Your reply, Hogtie, to Mr H/B, is so true, but so very sad. It is only our politicians who can ultimately craft legislation or make policy or appropriate money to relieve or resolve these issues. Politicians are elected on two or four cycles. The people we are concerned over are unlikely to ever become a “constituency” that is of interest to any pol. One on one, 80% of pols would like to help. IMO. If you lose the next election, you are of no value to either side. A lot of money for this genre of problem is furnished by those dreaded “earmarks.”
But it is no way to run a ship.

If it were up to me, I’d park one of our supercarrier battle groups and take that money to fund people like this. Let them do any job they can manage, as well as they can manage it, and give them a voucher for all their needs and a few of their wants. This still does not make them parents. Like in frat houses, there would have to be a house mother. And it just gets more complex. Well, any issue can be resolved if you want to. We keep talking and working and hoping to get more people aware.

Originally posted by hogtie

Soficrow,
I realize that there is some research being done that would indicate a physical reason for some behaviors, but until that can be proven...

There is a great deal of research - and little doubt that 'deviant' behaviors result from brain damage, most related to undiagnosed strokes.

For example, this medical text maps the brain, and links lesions in specific parts of the brain to particular "brain dysfunctions and disorders of mood, thought and affect processing, and behavior."

Behavior and Mood Disorders in Focal Brain Lesions

This is the first clinical reference work to specifically address the relationship of focal brain dysfunction to behavioral and emotional disorders, providing the most comprehensive account available of these manifestations of brain lesions including stroke, trauma, epilepsy, multiple sclerosis, and even neurosurgery. A worldwide team of neuroscientists and clinicians examines the links between regional brain dysfunction and disorders of mood, thought and affect processing, and behavior.

...and treated effectively, there is still the problem of putting a child in their care. Some of the cases you linked don’t look like they have any way to treat them.

I advocate prevention - and removing the causes rather than treating the symptoms.

But you're right - there are no effective medical "treatments" - the best treatment is education and validation: people need to be fully informed about what they are dealing with, and helped to develop coping skills.

Also, although these diseases are incurable and often untreatable, white matter damage can be reversible and the brain can replace damaged neurons with alternate connections.

Alzheimer's deterioration may go unnoticed in some seniors

People can have the brain deterioration that comes with Alzheimer's disease without showing debilitating symptoms, a new study finds. ...Researchers in the U.S. studied the brains of 134 clergy who donated their bodies to science. They were in their 80s on average when they died.

None had clinical symptoms of Alzheimer's before they died, but 37 per cent showed lesions on the brain associated with the disease, a research team reported in Tuesday's issue of the journal Neurology. ..."It means that a large number of people can accumulate all of this disease pathology and still be functioning very well," said study author Dr. David A. Bennett of the Rush Alzheimer's Disease Center in Chicago.

...Feldman is convinced the brain is a "use-it-or-lose-it" organ. Seniors with a higher education who stay mentally active and socially connected as they age can have the disease without knowing it, he said.

...stroke and Alzheimer’s tend to afflict people no longer of childbearing years.

Not true - people of all ages have strokes, usually undiagnosed, and the effects add up. Alzheimer's and dementia are diagnosed in their final stages in old age, when the symptoms are undeniable and clinically verifiable - but the path leading to the final stages is long, and paved with great pain for everyone affected.

I have spoken to some people researching neuroscience and behaviors, and the links are still kind of mysterious. So, you are talking about decades more of research...

No. I am talking about removing political constraints on acknowledging the existent research. I am saying the knowledge already exists, but is repressed to protect corporate profits.

...and generations born to people whom you claim can not control their behaviors.

I am saying that people can learn to control the behaviors and overcome their physical realities, IF they are fully informed. I am calling for education, awareness and validation.

How does being able to take responsibility, or not, relate to the welfare of the child? It seems that you se the adult as the victim. Where does the child fit in? If you can not care for a child, or are violent, again I ask how you justify allowing them to conceive a child only to neglect it?

Again - you are focusing on the symptoms, not the cause. The underlying diseases are preventable - simply by cleaning up the contamination in the world, and acknowledging the role pharmaceuticals play in creating these diseases.

Why protect profits before people? Do you think certain classes are immune? Do you think we can let our world be contaminated and just sterilise anyone who suffers from "industrial diseases"?

IMO - eugenics won't work because we simply do not know enough. Granted, "symptoms" like violence and abuse are horrible - BUT - we do not know if these perpetrators are carrying the single mutation that might ensure the survival of the human race. We simply do not know enough to make any decisions about who should or should not have the right to procreate.

While you see my examples as being in a vacuum, I’d like to say that I work with this population, all of these examples, on a regular basis, and it is my observation that cruelty and/or deliberate indifference are the predominant causes.

Again - you are not describing causes, you are describing symptoms.

Emotional disturbances following stroke have long been recognised. Whilst important states such as emotional lability and indifference are common and well recognised...

***

Frontal lobe injuries, violence, and aggression

Knowledge stored in the human prefrontal cortex may exert control over more primitive behavioral reactions to environmental provocation. Therefore, following frontal lobe lesions, patients are more likely to use physical intimidation or verbal threats in potential or actual confrontational situations. ...ventromedial frontal lobe lesions increase the risk of aggressive and violent behavior.

Originally posted by hogtie
Soficrow,
I realize that there is some research being done that would indicate a physical reason for some behaviors, but until that can be proven and treated effectively, there is still the problem of putting a child in their care.

Soficrow has started a thread on this very subject here:

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Soficrow has started a thread on this very subject here:

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

Thank you.

Soficrow, I'll post any comments related to your info over there, because I think most of our debate will be more along the lines of what you have posted. I think its fair to say that I am leaning towards eugenics and you are against, and the reasons that I dissagree will be better served by discussing on your thread. I appreciate your input.