The Developing Crisis in Israel and the Middle East

Not to beat this issue to death, but I would like to talk about the growing conflict in Israel, Lebanon, and the Middle East. After reading so many posts that deprecate the stance and action Israel has taken against terrorist organizations Hezbollah and Hamas and its backers, the malevolent regimes in Iran and Syria. I sincerely believe that Israel has every right to defend itself against these cowardly terrorists. Any sovereign nation would act in the same manner as Isreal if confronted with terrorist attacks on a daily basis. What would our reaction be in the United States do if Canada kidnapped American soldiers and then proceeded to launch rocket attacks against Chicago ?
Lebanon has failed to sustain its side of the agreement to disarm Hezbollah when Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon. In fact the United Nations voted on and approved Resolution 1559 that was to guarantee this disarmament. Abviously once again the United Nations has proven to be worthless when it comes to backing up it words.
It almost makes me laugh when I hear the world reaction to Israel defending herself. The one that directly comes to mind is good ol' President Chirac in France who " condemns the disproportionate use of force" this is the same leader who said if attacked " France would not rule out the use of nuculear weapons as a response." Even Saudi Arabia at least criticized Hezbollah.
I think that there may be a bit of a double standard in the world.
How does one nation deal with these facist islamic terrorists who only know hate and violence. Is there any way to productivly negotiate with them ? Or should the United States or Israel even make an attempt.
This brings me to my last, and perhaps most importunate point. What is israel to do with Iran and Syria, who brazenly support and sponsor Hezbollah and terror. Example the missile that hit the Israeli missile ship off the coast of Lebanon. That had the fingerprints of Iran and its Revolutionary Guard all over it. How can there be peace when the assinine leader of Iran is calling for the "total" destruction of Israel.
Israel sees Hezbollah as the cowardly two headed snake that it is. The only way that Israel can defeat this snake is if it cuts off its two heads, those heads being the countries of Iran and Syria. We will see how much dilarious Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad shoots off his mouth when he's facing the full force of the IAF.

Originally posted by nickmyers32USA
What would our reaction be in the United States do if Canada kidnapped American soldiers and then proceeded to launch rocket attacks against Chicago ?
Lebanon has failed to sustain its side of the agreement to disarm Hezbollah when Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon. In fact the United Nations voted on and approved Resolution 1559 that was to guarantee this disarmament. Abviously once again the United Nations has proven to be worthless when it comes to backing up it words.

Your argument is lopsided. America and Canada would never kidnap politicians or military. WE extradite legally. On Israeli and Militant side of things..they have all kidnapped and assasinated politicians, military as well as civilians. You get what you pay for. Perhaps if the Palestinians were in their own country rather then in Lebanon , Israel would have not been in Lebanon in the first place that there was a need for armament.
I won't even get into the argument about lebanon following that UN Resolution because a country thats going to call up a single resolution that was ignored, that itself has ignored dozens holds no water.

To borrow your analogy line of thinking:
That would be like a country building nuclear facilities in secret, stockpiles hundreds of nuclear weapons using subtrefuge and deciet, and is not under any type of treaty or wathchdog group, finding out 40 years later that maybe his neighbor is trying to do the same thing and then cries to the world that his neighbor is trying to secretly build nuclear facilties........Oh wait that did really happen..My bad !sorry! Wrong analogy. I'll have to get back to you on that one.







.

The USA funded Bin Laden to undermine the USSR in Afghanistan.

The zionists funded Hamas to undermine Arafat.


Frankenstein monsters from the Id

I know that Canada would never attack the United States thats why it was a hypothetical situation. My point was to prove that any nation that gives a damn about its civilians would not tolerate terrorist attacks upon its military or its citizens. Would you want to live in a country where the government sat idly by as attacks were waged against you or your family. I would sincerely hope not.
How can people fulminate against Israel when they are finally ( after years of senseless destructive violence ) cracking down on these impetuous terrorists. I hope that you are not one who always "turns the other cheek when done harm to." When a terrorists captured an Israeli businessmen, Israel negotiated his release from captivity in exchange for 400 terrorists, many of whom had innocent blood on thier hands. That just goes to prove what happens when you attempt to negotiate or appease these mindless people. By no means am I talking about the Muslim faith as a whole. There is a huge distinction between peace loving Muslims and these terrorists that Israel and even the United States ( Iraq and Afghanastan ) are currently at war with. What the United States has to learn from this Israel fiasco is that if we dont confront and take the war to them they will bring the fight to our own soil or even that of Europe etc. ( London, Madrid and Im sure more to come ).
A nucular armed Iran would be destructive to everyone throughout the world. When does one stand up and say that enough is enough we will not let this assinine regime continue unchecked. Simply put Iran and Syria are worlwide menaces, who can only dream of being able to blackmail the world.
Even Vladamir Putin has said that Israels concern over Hezbollah, Iran, and Syria.is justified.
As far as Lebanon goes they need to be able to operate free of Syrian and Hezbollah control, if the Lebanesse government had the capability and control over its own borders they would be fighting right next to the Israelis.
How do you reason with people who blow themselves up in hope of taking innocent life. You can't. The only thing Israel and the Unitedx States can do is take the fight to them. ASfter all Hezbollah is ready for " open war."
Justifying actions that the United States has taken in the past to fund some of these groups was foolish, and hopefully we can learn from history and our mistakes. What we must do now is look forward and support Israels fight against terror that will hopefully in the long term make the entire world a safer place.

Justified concerns, of course! I would like to ask you though, you are defending Israel, and I would hope that people would look at this from a distance and see each side and consider it. Has not Israel attacked people before these events unfolded? Was that terrorism, or defense? I don't even want to argue this really, innocents are dying on both sides, so I see no side worthy of taking.

For those that do, well, either side is wrong right now, imo. So that being said, I will bow out of this thread unless something interesting comes along to respond to. I mean no offense to anyone, but everyone that is fair should look at both sides and see that we should not jump to defend anyone in this.

*Edit - I'm also communicating with a person from each side through another site, and they are looking at each other with compassion and care at this point, so if the people there in each country (Lebanon and Israel) are not pointing fingers and taking sides, it kinda seems silly for us to. We are observers though.

[edit on 7/16/06 by niteboy82]

BREAKING NEWS that proves my point....CNN is reporting 20 casualities in Haifa after Ketyusha rockets fired by Hezbollah hit the northern port city. No suprise where they got rockets ( hint the country starts with an I and ends in RAN ). Its time that Israel expands its opperations for the future stability of the Middle East. There is no doubt that this is a horribly tragic situation, but that is exactly what Hezbollah wants everyone to think. If they really cared about the sanctity of human life they wouldn't put these rockets and weapons caches in the cennter of densly populated civilian areas.

Originally posted by niteboy82
I'm also communicating with a person from each side through another site, and they are looking at each other with compassion and care at this point, so if the people there in each country (Lebanon and Israel) are not pointing fingers and taking sides, it kinda seems silly for us to. We are observers though.

[edit on 7/16/06 by niteboy82]

As am I.

It,s so sad to see two beautiful countries where i have made too many friends to count being forced into this situation by dull brained politics..

The people themselves harbour no grudge against each other in times of peace.Only when an outbreak of violence do you hear the empassioned pleas for justice

Only one comparison I would like to make though

When the IRA was blowing up our soldiers in Ireland and attacking civillians and civil buildings in mainland uk I dont recall the british troops ever deliberately mass destroving Irelands infrastructure.Airports/roads/bridges etc
OR threatening to attack America because it was suppling the IRA weapons

I do think. this is a way too heavily handed approach.

And thank God that Israel has the guts to stand up for herself.... But the civilians are the victims but it comes a time when they need to take the initiative and say that finally enough is enough, we do not want these terrorists living within our borders, we want to seek a peaceful existance.
As far as im concerned Israel has every right to cut the supply chain going to the terrorists. Why wouldnt they, that is strategic planning. The UK did it to the Nazi Germans in World War 2. If Israel didn't go after the supply lines they would be in this sad position every other month. When it comes down to it this is turning into a war, the true victims are the innocent civilians on all sides of the border.

If a local thug hides in your neighbours property and starts destroying your property what would you do??

Start fighting with your neighbour?
Or use the more intellingent strategy of catching the guy seperately without making more enemies?

nickmyers32USA:

I'm not going to pull apart your posts but you do have a number of outright assumptions.

The fact of the matter is these countries that are saying "we have a right to defend ourselves" are full of it and sadly, many people are believing their BS.

Defence, involves defending ones self - NOT ATTACKING. Self Defence - defending yourself against an attacker - it DOES NOT means beat the living sheet out of him.

If you had a wayward child that threw a rock at the neighbours child and then stole their lawnmower, what would you expect your neighbout to do?

1) Call you on the phone and discuss the matter
2) Burn you house down

The same thing happended with Israel/Hezbollah and what have they done? If Israel was interested in gettnig back the two soldiers, they would have picked up the phone and said "give them back or we will bomb your infrastructure". They're not interested in the soldiers or have any concern for civilians.

BTW, Hezbollah NEVER fired ANY rockets at ANY civilian areas until Israel started attacking CIVILIANS. Hezbollah targeted MILITARY and then Israel targeted CIVILIANS.

Who's the terrorist?

Big deal where the rockets came from. If someone kills someone will a gun, is the manufacturer to blame? Come on!

Personally, I think someone needs to spend 10 cents on a bit of lead and direct it at very high velocity at the neurons that "gave the order" to do what had been done.

Cheers

JS

I say we summon the ET's to come down here and threaten to simultaneously vaporize
Jerusalem and Mecca if this insanity doesn't come to an immediate screeching halt!

Originally posted by jumpspace

The same thing happended with Israel/Hezbollah and what have they done? If Israel was interested in gettnig back the two soldiers, they would have picked up the phone and said "give them back or we will bomb your infrastructure". They're not interested in the soldiers or have any concern for civilians.

Uh? Are you on the same planet? Um, Israel DID ask for its soldiers back. Many times. They said if you don't give them back, we will bomb you.

BTW, Hezbollah NEVER fired ANY rockets at ANY civilian areas until Israel started attacking CIVILIANS. Hezbollah targeted MILITARY and then Israel targeted CIVILIANS.

Um, hello? Are you serious? Did you even watch any of the worldwide televised event unfold. You know the one, that one that, um, families were pulled from their beloved homes, crying and screaming because they just didn't understand why they were giving up the only home they've known? I did. I caught that one. Those scenes hurt my heart so bad. I hurt for those people, but I also felt proud. Proud that this was finally coming to an end. Finally, one of the nations was big enough to negotiate a deal and walk away.

Funny, cause this beloved piece of land wasn't returned in the way is was obtained. The Israels developed it, built beautiful beach homes and resorts. Made this ugly piece of desert into a thriving , beautiful tourist attraction.

If it were the other way around, would the building still be standing? Or, would they rather destroy them before allowing someone else to have them? I think history should answer this one.

Did they hear a 'Thank you' (not that they asked for one). No. They heard rockets and missiles, daily. The Hez would get as close as they could and launch these things into Israel's back yard. This has been going on ever since they gave them gaza.

What did Israel do? They moved their families closer in, so not to be struck by these missiles. Still went on their day, with their lives.

Day in, and day out. Missiles, bombs, rockets. Unfortunately, I didn't get to see this part on my local news. I saw this on international news. I don't believe I would have believed it, if I didn't see it. The reporters were walking around villages, interviewing various families. No military, not even the press reporter. Just regular civilians. Asking them how do they go on with their days with this going on in their back yard. You know what? IT WAS LITERALLY IN THEIR BACK YARD!!! You could see the missiles dropping in the background.

Israel didn't retaliate, not until these TERRORISTS (lets not glorify their title, they are what they are) crossed their line and kidnapped a soldier.

What would you have done?



[edit on 16-7-2006 by SourGrapes]

SourGrapes:

I should have stated that I was talking about the soldiers that Hezb Allah snatched and not the one that Hamas snatched.

Cheers

JS

[edit on 16-7-2006 by SourGrapes]

mod edit: removed quote of previous post

[edit on 16-7-2006 by sanctum]

I suppose I should have figured your point when you posted 'soldiers' and not 'soldier'. Hezbollah/Hamas, tomato, tomahto. Its so easy to confuse the two.

[edit on 16-7-2006 by SourGrapes]

mod edit: removed quote of previous post

[edit on 16-7-2006 by sanctum]

The crisis in the Middle-East will never be eased while each belligerent antagonist holds to the principle of 'murdering' innocent civillians as a means to lever pressure upon its opponents.
What is happening in Lebanon now is systematic slaughter of Lebanese civilians and punitive destruction of their civilian infrastructure. This is the 'unfair' practice that Israel is using against Hezbollah. The Lebanese government are not powerful enough to strip the Hezbollah Militia of their arms, and have no direct influence over them, yet it is Lebanon and its civilians paying the price. The tactic is somewhat like your cousins being attacked for what you yourself did, and serves only to pour fuel on the fire and provoke tit-for-tat responses. It is, in short, a myopic politic.

Israel justifies its attacks as being defensive, but in truth, Israel has never acted defensively, it has always acted offensively, and has never been too concerned with civilian deaths and casualties arising out of its attacks, either its own (through reprisals) or that of its opponents (although the Lebanese are not its opponents in this case).

Israel's opponents, equally follow the same myopic politic. Much of the world calls them terrorists, but in their minds and their supporters, they are not. Who are we to decide whom is what? We do so by taking sides, influenced by many factors and variables, but there are two sides to the conflict, there are two histories of suffering and bloodshed, out of which arises the causus belli of the current conflict.

From the blood-soaked pages of their histories, punctuated by shrapnel and severed limbs, will come the eventual resolve, one that will either be a peaceful conclusion or a violent one; but the time when this arrives is not yet on the horizon, for those whom will bring it about are not yet aligned, so the conflict will continue, just as belligerent, just as bloody, just as hypocritical. Civilians on both sides will continue to be the minced fodder and currency of their ideologies. The civilians seem to have no say in the proceedings, their part is to simply function as targets and the conduits of political pressure. A very unenviable position...my heart aches them.

Regards

Originally posted by nickmyers32USA
I know that Canada would never attack the United States thats why it was a hypothetical situation. My point was to prove that any nation that gives a damn about its civilians would not tolerate terrorist attacks upon its military or its citizens. Would you want to live in a country where the government sat idly by as attacks were waged against you or your family. I would sincerely hope not.

So... Israel killing Lebanese civilians... by your own standards.. a terrorist attack? I agree...

Israel's reposnse to the situation is being characterized as heavy-handed. And it is disturbing to see the level of destruction. I spoke yesterday to a very close friend who is from Lebanon and whose family lives just north of Beirut. He is obviously concerned and laments the utter destruction of what took 16 years to rebuild. But he holds Hizbollah responsible. One person, yes.

As for Israel's level of response, Sam Donaldson summed it up rather nicely this morning when he said. "The United States suffered two hours of terror one September morning and proceeded to invade, destroy and overturn the regimes in two countries." Israel, it would seem, is borrowing from this administration's 'shock 'n awe' playbook.

Originally posted by jtma508
As for Israel's level of response, Sam Donaldson summed it up rather nicely this morning when he said. "The United States suffered two hours of terror one September morning and proceeded to invade, destroy and overturn the regimes in two countries." Israel, it would seem, is borrowing from this administration's 'shock 'n awe' playbook.

Thats a generous description of what america did.. invade, destroy and overturn two regimes.. some may argue - invade, scatter, made dogs dinner of... but it's ok, cos they got Saddam...

The problem is, if Israel are wanting to create shock and awe, it's just going to give it's many enemies another excuse that they don't even need to attempt to wipe Israel off the planet. It's all going to end in tragedy - Israel are surrounded by enemies, they have to play it smarter then "shock and awe".

So then how do you deal with Hezbollah ? Its proven from many circumstances in the past that you can not negotiate with these thugs. Maybe Israel should sit them down and give them cookies and hot chocolate...
Once again there are threads posted on here that are comparing apples to oranges. How can you compare the situation in the middle east to you next door neighbor complaining about your kid.
How is Israel supposed to negotiate with savage groups like Hezbollah and Syria, and Iran ? These people dont even recognize the right for Israel to exist. In fact they continualy calling for the permament removal of Israel.
Israel has said that a cease fire is possible if Hezbollah disarms and returns Israels kidnapped soldiers. Hezbollah will have nothing of this. Iran is now saying that they won't let Hezbollah disarm. So how do you negotiate? What is there to negotiate? The only thing that I can hope is that Israel will go out of its way to limit innocent civilian life. But once again in war and when your enemy puts possible targets and weapons caches in crowded civilian areas that makes it impossible regardless of how much Israel goes out of its way.
The last time I checked Israel was doing everything possible to limit civilian casualties ( as stated before, tragically it is not possible to completly do this ). Hezbollah on the other hand intentionally goes out of its way to target just civilian. Once again how do you negotiate with people of this mindset? How do you negotiate with people ho riegn terror upon there own people by blowing themselves up just to make a political statement.
Even President John F Kennedy was prepared to go to nucular war to prevent the Soviet Union from putting missiles on Cuba. I think Israel has the right to protect its citizens and its borders from these barbaric facist islamic terrorists.

Redux2006
Hezbollah is the ones who put weapons and bomb making facilities among Lebanesse civilians. Why not look at the fact instead of trying to make excuses as to why Israel is just so evil.