Who is Greater: the Medical Researcher or the Medical Doctor?

Originally posted by bsl4doc


Considering the large number of physicians and nurses who work in your own country's government funded public health system, albeit much smaller than every other Western nation, I have a hard time believing your generalisations are anything more than emotional outbursts due to lack of real facts or substance.

Mariella

Well your "hard time believing" doesn't change the facts, now does it? You don't have any problems flapping your lips like you know what you're talking about, do you? Your inability to harness your own position in the hierarchy of discussing facts doesn't phase me. I assure you.

What does this mean?

Considering the large number of physicians and nurses who work in your own country's government funded public health system

Are you serious? Are you insinuating I have free healthcare? You utterly clueless mouthpiece? You really need to get out some and get the facts before you speak. If you think that's how the health care system is over here - you're emitting fumes that are at the same time vacuous and noxious to those trying to deal with reality.

Are you serious? Are you insinuating I have free healthcare? You utterly clueless mouthpiece? You really need to get out some and get the facts before you speak. If you think that's how the health care system is over here - you're emitting fumes that are at the same time vacuous and noxious to those trying to deal with reality.

You do have some resources for free healthcare in the United States. Your own department of Health and Human Services offers a free clinic locator for general practice and emergent medical needs:

ask.hrsa.gov...

It falls under the Bureau of Primary Care.

As I mention before, prior to your becoming nothing more than a name-calling toddler, your public health system is very small compared to the rest of Western civilisation. You don't put as much tax money into public health, and this is what you get in return. Sorry, can't help you there.

Mariella

Don't change the subject, mouthpiece.

The point is - IN MY COUNTRY - the medical doctors and the medical research organizations (which would include any one who is okay with being on their payrolls) are discompassionate, money-grubbing, worthless tits.

NO - I have NO

Well, it's no use arguing someone with deepseeded and irrational hatred. Same reason you can't convert bigots, I suppose...

But, just curious, did you type your zipcode into the HHS site? I typed the zipcode of the city I'm in right now, and it pulled up two clinics, both offering free primary care.

Mariella

Originally posted by bsl4doc
Well, it's no use arguing someone with deepseeded and irrational hatred. Same reason you can't convert bigots, I suppose...

I told you to stop trying to change the subject.

But, just curious, did you type your zipcode into the HHS site? I typed the zipcode of the city I'm in right now, and it pulled up two clinics, both offering free primary care.

What's the zip code for "Firenze, Italia" - BR549? Get over your utter self-delusion that you know what you're talking about.

I'm not currently in Firenze. If you look at my blog, my other posts, etc. you'll see that I'm spending the summer in Washington, DC with family until I start my residency.

Again, nice generalisation, though.

Mariella

Got to your corners...

The topic is the only thing that should be discussed, not each other, so the name calling and off topic banter stops now.

Ding...

Discuss!

There are no services available to an employeed, insured citizen of the U.S. (unless you'd like to get tested for V.D. for free!)

Here's your glorious HHS benefits and who they are for:

Health and social science research
Preventing disease, including immunization services
Assuring food and drug safety
Medicare (health insurance for elderly and disabled Americans) and Medicaid (health insurance for low-income people)
Health information technology
Financial assistance and services for low-income families
Improving maternal and infant health
Head Start (pre-school education and services)
Faith-based and community initiatives
Preventing child abuse and domestic violence
Substance abuse treatment and prevention
Services for older Americans, including home-delivered meals
Comprehensive health services for Native Americans
Medical preparedness for emergencies, including potential terrorism.

www.hhs.gov...

That blocks out everybody who isn't in fear they have a STD, isn't beating their kids, isn't retired and on Medicare or isn't unemployeed, destitute and on welfare.

PLEASE stop trying to act like you know what you're talking about.

Those of us who get up every day, go to work, have our portions of our insurance premium taken from our paychecks - DON'T HAVE FREE HEALTH CARE AVAILABLE TO US.

Let's look at your list again:

Health and social science research
Preventing disease, including immunization services
Assuring food and drug safety
Medicare (health insurance for elderly and disabled Americans) and Medicaid (health insurance for low-income people)
Health information technology
Financial assistance and services for low-income
Improving maternal and infant health
Head Start (pre-school education and services)
Faith-based and community initiatives
Preventing child abuse and domestic violence
Substance abuse treatment and prevention
Services for older Americans, including home-delivered meals
Comprehensive health services for Native Americans
edical preparedness for emergencies, including potential terrorism.

so they offer you preventative medicine, immunisations, low-income assistance, maternal and infant assistance, community assitance, substance abuse treatment, elderly care, under represented minority care, and limited emergency preparedness, ALL WITHOUT MAJOR FUNDING THROUGH TAXES, and you're not happy?

You want free medical care, but without all the taxes? You can't have both. We pay more taxes than you in Europe, but we also get great public transit and healthcare. You pay less in taxes and have shoddy (i.e DC metro) transit and limited free healthcare.

I suggest you lobby for raised taxes in support of medical care if you truly want free healthcare. It reduces competition amount private hospitals and levels the playing field as far as where god doctors are attracted.

But then, you'd rather spew hatred and name-calling, so I guess the USA had better find a better spokesman.

Mariella

Originally posted by bsl4doc
Let's look at your list again:

Health and social science research
Preventing disease, including immunization services
Assuring food and drug safety
Medicare (health insurance for elderly and disabled Americans) and Medicaid (health insurance for low-income people)
Health information technology
Financial assistance and services for low-income
Improving maternal and infant health
Head Start (pre-school education and services)
Faith-based and community initiatives
Preventing child abuse and domestic violence
Substance abuse treatment and prevention
Services for older Americans, including home-delivered meals
Comprehensive health services for Native Americans
edical preparedness for emergencies, including potential terrorism.

so they offer you preventative medicine, immunisations, low-income assistance, maternal and infant assistance, community assitance, substance abuse treatment, elderly care, under represented minority care, and limited emergency preparedness, ALL WITHOUT MAJOR FUNDING THROUGH TAXES,

NO THEY DON'T! Gawd-damn...how many ways do I have to say this. I don't get:

1. preventative medicine
2. low-income assistance
3. maternal and infant assistance
4. community assistance
5. substance abuse treatment
6. elderly care
7. under represented minority care
8. and WTF the "emergency preparedness is

Why don't you get those services? Is it because you make enough to pay for private insurance? If that's the case, then why are you complaining? Your government's public health system is only funded enough to support those who cannot otherwise afford private healthcare. Again, that is a problem with your system not my interpretation of your system.

You seem very angry and aggressive, compounded with large bold text and more namecalling. Perhaps you need anger management. I think the HHS offers that, as well...

Mariella

Originally posted by bsl4doc
Why don't you get those services? Is it because you make enough to pay for private insurance? If that's the case, then why are you complaining?

HOLY SHYTE! We just got back to the topic. Because I have to deal with the worthless, in-it-for-money, don't give a damn whether they cure you or prolong the agony (actually they may actually care seeing as they get more money with the latter), "PRIVATE DOCTORS!" And I have to deal with what is legally available to me (whether it ultimately kills you or not) drug system of a corrrupt medical research community!

BINGO - we've made a connection.

Seriously, is there any POSSIBLE way you cannot understand now?

If you don't like your private physician, why do you keep going to them? Switch doctors. I have several relatives living in the United States (those I'm staying with in DC) who go to private doctors at the George Washington University Hospital and they truly enjoy them. Good doctors, look out for their patients, etc.

Perhaps you have had a bad experience with a few docs, that's very likely. There are bad people out there in every profession: bad docs, bad cops, bad politicians, bad parents, bad cabis, bad pilots, bad everything. Why does it shock you that there are bad doctors?

Not every doctors is the demon you are painting them to be, just like not every American is rude and callous, as you are coming off to me. I have several very dear American friends, and my opinion of them doesn't change based on your behaviour. Can you perhaps try not to judge me or other doctors based on your few experiences?

Mariella

Originally posted by bsl4doc
If you don't like your private physician, why do you keep going to them? Switch doctors. I have several relatives living in the United States (those I'm staying with in DC) who go to private doctors at the George Washington University Hospital and they truly enjoy them. Good doctors, look out for their patients, etc.

Perhaps you have had a bad experience with a few docs, that's very likely. There are bad people out there in every profession: bad docs, bad cops, bad politicians, bad parents, bad cabis, bad pilots, bad everything. Why does it shock you that there are bad doctors?

Not every doctors is the demon you are painting them to be, just like not every American is rude and callous, as you are coming off to me. I have several very dear American friends, and my opinion of them doesn't change based on your behaviour. Can you perhaps try not to judge me or other doctors based on your few experiences?

Mariella

Is this your final answer? - errrr, you've been dropped as the weak link. Forget your self-delusional self-important partyline. No - that's not the problem. Go back to Italy, take your overly-inflated self-worth with you and let those of us who are being exploited at the sake of our own health but for the point of your higher calling (which seems to be profit in this country!) continue to speak out against a system that has virtually barred us from true health care. Eventually we'll find away to drag every damned one of the (you?) blood-sucking tragedy-benefiting worthless parasites down and develop our own system of "healthcare".

Until then, my opinion stands - there is no difference between the medical doctor and the medical researcher - they're both scum on the take. Well, and the opinion that in this conversation you've proven how utterly worthless your "expertise" is since you don't bother to even know what you speak of.

Originally posted by GreatTech
The medical researcher develops medicines and technology to cure patients. The medical doctor administers to patients. Who is greater?

Well when my daughter decided to go into the medical field for studies . . . I wanted her to be a doctor.

After her first two years she decided that she wanted to be a doctor but not in the medical field as a practicioner but she wanted to research into diseases.

Now in her four year and first semester into research she said that the researcher is as or not more important than practicing medicine and that still medical researchers has to deal with human subjects in order to find cures so they still have to do both.

The only thing is that the human subjects are often in the form of live human tissues.

Yes I will say in my opinion that the medical researcher and the medical doctor go hand in hand. they depend from each other.

Eventually we'll find away to drag every damned one of the (you?) blood-sucking tragedy-benefiting worthless parasites down and develop our own system of "healthcare".

Valhall is probably the most angry person i have ever seen, as was said, there are bad people in every profession, but it does not mean they are all like that, take the army personel that tortued and humiliated iraqi prisoners, that does not mean that everyone in the army is like that, there are a lot of good people in every profession including the medical profession.

Also i would love to see you develop your own health care with out people that have studied the human body and mechanisms of the human body.......you would be back to drilling holes in your head to cure head aches, etc.

Also i doubt there are many people that enter these professions looking to benifit of the ill and dying etc, that is a pretty sick thought right there, most people want to help. To be honest though if u are as angry and rude in real life as you were on this post i would not want to treat you either.

Originally posted by ringyramjet
To be honest though if u are as angry and rude in real life as you were on this post i would not want to treat you either.

Lucky you, never had an experience that would allow you to understand the reaction you are commenting on. I wish you the best of luck and that you and none of your loved ones ever do.

My only question is, does a Dr. have a right to make this choice. It would seem to me they should know the reactions of people that are frustrated by bad experiences, be aware of them and learn to deal with it, while still maintaining compassion for the patient. (HELLO???? like the rest of us have to do dealing with clients every day).

I got one, unfortunately he's only my OB, so he can't help me with some of my real problems, but he does acknowledge my gripes (he knows some of the idiots who have been less than hypocratic in my case).


No Dr. I pay has the right to treat me like just another annoyance. I just started with a new Primary Care due to an insurance change. My appointment was for 4:15PM. At 5:30PM I heard him come out into the hall outside the door where I was and start whining about what time it was and there were still how many patients left? "Oh great, a new one". Should this have happened? I lost pay to get to him on time, I have to work well past 5:30 at times, cry me a river.

Obviously not the Dr. for me, but now what - 3 months to get into a new one and then more lost time at a new job? All because I can't find one who gives a hoot? It shouldn't be this way.

1. 1990 - After fighting breast cancer into three years of remission and then being diagnosed with bone cancer that the doctors stated was most likely transmitted during the radical mastectomy years before, my aunt fought the bone cancer into remission after a second round of debilitating chemo. She was in remission from the bone cancer and started collecting fluid in her lungs. Doctor says he needs to put a drain tube in. So the family is sitting in the waiting room for this short procedure and the doctor comes slowly sauntering down the hall running his finger along the wall and humming (pretty much like that scene in Gone with the Wind when Scarlett is waiting for Prissy to get back with the doctor to help her deliver the baby and Prissy comes back dragging her finger along the fence and humming and la-la-ing). Doc walks up to the family and says (nonchalantly!), "Well, I punctured her aorta and she is bleeding out into her chest cavity." Of course, the family asked what needs to be done and he replies "There's nothing I can do - she's going to die." And she did.

2. 1992 - 21 year old nephew is a passenger in a car that drives off a bridge, flips and lands partially on top of him. After finally being extracted from beneath the vehicle, secured properly on a board as he should have been, and transported to the Regional hospital by the EMT crew, he is REMOVED from the constraints of the spinal board and allowed to flop around with a c4/c5 spinal injury for over an hour with his parents standing there voicing their concern about him being allowed to try to get up. By the time he arrived at a hospital that could actually try to do something for him (over 2 hours after being extracted from the river bottom) he was officially a quadraplegic with a paralysis line around the nipple area.

3. 1997 - My then 73 year old father falls backward off a cellar four feet to the ground and hits the back of his head on an object. It knocks him out. When my mother finds him and finally gets him to wake up - he doesn't know where he is, or that he even owned a cellar to fall off of. Couldn't answer any basic questions. The ambulance gets him to the hospital where I almost come to blows with the worthless parasite working the ER. The scumbag sends him home after prescribing tylenol (didn't even take pictures of his head). He literal says to my father - "go home take two tylenol and go to bed. If you wake up in the morning you'll be just fine"...and then walks out the door. I chased him out the backside of the hospital and asked what frigging cracker jack box he got his license out of and that I couldn't believe he was sending a elderly patient home without even performing due diligence to ensure he wasn't bleeding into his brain. He sets me straight - "he's ambulatory and on medicare - I'm not doing a damned thing more for him because that's what the rules allow." That's what the rules allow - so he wasn't going to take one step more than what he knew medicare would pay for him. COMPASSION!!!

4. I've already shared how the doctors almost killed me in 1998 from prescribing an inappropriate, unnecessary, and under-monitored medicine.

5. 1991 - 2001 - I suffered the following random conditions that would hit me in combination or separately out of the blue and each of these conditions about three to four times a year:

parasthesia from my hip area down to my feet. Would randomly hit anywhere from the groin area down to the foot on either leg. Felt like I had been scalded and hurt to the touch and to the bone. No outward symptoms (could not visibly tell where it was occurring) - at times would make it almost impossible to walk. Could last anywhere from a couple of hours to 4 or 5 days.

opthalmic migraines which consisted of filigree, blind-spots, loss of peripheral vision

cluster migraines - by the time fall 2001 had arrived I was having at least a head ache every week for some period of time, and a cluster migraine almost monthly. Some of these would become so bad my scalp hurt. Two times - over a period of ten years - I had a cluster migraine that lasted two weeks. Those two required me being knocked completely out before the migraine went away.

slurred speech and lost of short-term memory - becoming the worst in 2001.

In the fall of 2001 my eyesight began to "short out". In January 2000 I had 20-15 eyesight, but beginning in the fall of 2001 I would wake up on certain days with my far vision gone to the point I had to get glasses to drive and read signs in the airport. But on some days it would "come back", be almost completely normal, and then randomly go away again on other days. Doctor checks me for diabetes - negative. Has me go to a opthamologist - finds nothing wrong. Opthamologist sends back to the doc who does an MRI - and I have big flaming lesions all over my brain. Off to the neurologist I go - and before it's over I go through 3 months of testing to "guess" as to whether I have M.S. - testing which ranged from spinal tap to being shocked like a frog in a high school science lab - only to have one neurologist say I have MS and two out of three neurologists say the lesions are caused by the migraines - if I get rid of the migraines everything will be hunky-dory. One neurologist says I have TMJ and I need to get that treated in case it's causing the migraines. So off I go to the dentist to get referred to some one who can fix my TMJ and he says he has some one who can help me, but first he needs to pull the last wisdom tooth left in my head. He pulls it, and the frequency of my migrains have dropped to a couple/year. The paresthesia has only hit me once since then. I've had no blind-spots. Short-term memory still sucks and my far vision has permanently gone away and is still degrading. But guess what my family doctor up here found out!!! I have hyploglycemia that took my blood count down to under 45 within an hour of beginning the glucose tolerance test. They had to put me in a hospital bed for the rest of the test and I slept through them taking the last three blood samples.

Valhall

I sympathise with you over what these "Dr's" have put you through.I and my family too have been put through the perils of the weak health care system.It is sad with Dr's playing truth or dare with out health but whats also most alarming is Dr's lacking the most basic skills of not being able to draw blood.It really begs the question as to what exactly is taught at medical school.

[edit on 28-7-2006 by tarzan]

[edit on 28-7-2006 by tarzan]

Originally posted by tarzan
It really begs the question as to what exactly is taught at medical school.

Yep, Val has described perfectly the kinds of horror stories that many of us have found to be the norm.

My favorite line was when I requested a Dr. to run a screening test (since he was running by basic bloodwork anyway) and he didn't know what it was, so he went ballistic saying things like - "I don't know what that is, I don't know what it is for, I wouldn't know what to do if if it came back positive anyway".

Well, none of this is relevant since if it was positive I would obviously know to go to a specialist (and wouldn't it be his business to figure that out for me?), so who cares if he knew what it was or not, but the funniest thing (if it weren't so sad) was that when he went to give me the bloodwork order to take to the lab it was one of the 20 pre-printed tests on the form. In other words, he didn't even have to look it up to get a code for the order. Of course this meant of what the labs consider routine screening, he was unfamiliar with. How scary is that?

How frustrated can you get when you are forced to start with a primary care physician before seeing a specialist and they don't even have a clue what to look for to determine where to start, while at the same time are totally pissed off if you do.

Edit: And let's not forget the researchers are in a battle for the available funds to do the research. The funds are going to researchers who are potentially investigating drug solutions for symptoms, not research to get to the underlying cause of the conditions people are suffering from. There is no debating that. I do find studies in other countries where the research is based on finding underlying causes, but they are mostly ignored by the US and certainly not being looked at by american physicians or reearchers. The money goes to where the money can be made, and chronic illness treated by maintenance drugs is where the money is. Period!

[edit on 7/28/2006 by Relentless]