Pennsylvania City Outlaws Illegal Immigrants

Originally posted by DYepes

These underground humans are survivors

You call them survivors, I call them Illegals (those that enter illegally) What gives them more rights then my grandfather who had to wait in line to enter legally?

Hey my parents got here legally in the 70's also. That does not mean I still do not respect these people for trying to survive. I don't see how they have or are entitled to more rights than your grandfather seeing as they are obviously not getting any. What rights are they being entitled to that your grandfather did not have? I am just curious to know. As far as I can see it they just trying to survive here. Is that not what your grandfather and my parents tried to do, survive? You wondering at all why they even came here ya know...

Originally posted by ThichHeaded
I said I agree with Hazeltown, I however said I didnt agree with that crackpot sherriff's tatics. I dont care who it is. You, Me, God, Bin Laden.

Like i said earlier, Take over a state/fed prision that has criminals that have been tried and have to do the time. Not people are just getting in the system/or waiting for trial. It is stupid and makes no sense.

REPLY: I sat make him the head of the Immigration and Naturalization Department.

If people that who have yet to go to court see what's in store for them, it may change their thought processes a bit.

I'm tired of hearing the word "hispanic".... the country of "Hispania" changed it's name long ago. That word is just another tool to bring many different people into a "group" so they can be pandered to by special interest groups and politicians.

I've read many of these illegal immigrant debates here on ATS and I think this is the first time I've chimed in. My arguement probably won't mean anything to most of you, regardless of your side. You see, philosophically speaking I am a Rational Anarchist. I have the right to go whereever I please on this planet and no one has the right to impede that. That goes for everyone else too. I've seen pictures of Earth from space and you know what? Those lines between countries are imaginary. I know my world doesn't fit in with the "real" world but I also know that governments are as imaginary as the lines between them.

Vas

excuse me but what the hell!?!?!

they are ILLEGAL immigrants. that means the're already outlaws. why make another law. illegal is illegal. stupid politics.

OH and also... I agree agree with Vas. we should be free to roam about wherever. i think the root of this antagosim is due wholly to racism

[edit on 15-7-2006 by truth smuggler]

Like truth smuggler says, if they're illegal, then why do they have to be outlawed? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

Originally posted by Xanthus
Like truth smuggler says, if they're illegal, then why do they have to be outlawed? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

Because the current law is a Federal one. Under the current law local police can only report the presence of illegals to the Federal authorities. This law makes it illegal to be in Hazleton without legal immigration status. Hazleton's law also makes it illegal to employ or due business with illegal immigrants. The Feds have chosen not to enforce their law due to politics.

Pennsylvania City Outlaws Illegal Immigrants

Just examine the redundancy of the title...outlawing that which is illegal?

Simply put, illegal aliens steal public goods and services. They use those services without paying the income tax which is used to support them. In essence, this is theft, and theft of millions if not billions of dollars.

If the laws pertain to any kind of illegal, then it would seem difficult to strike down on the basis of being discriminatory. More power to them...

There are plenty of options for people who want to LEGALLY enter and work in the US. Those choosing to do so are going about it the right way. Likewise with the language issue. You can be damn sure that if I wanted to go live in another country, I'd sure make the effort to learn to speak and read the language pronto...

However, there are economic impacts to consider. Illegals perform a large degree of menial labor for low wages (low, because one isn't concerned with minimum wage when paying under the table). If hotels, restaurants, farmers, and other industries employing illegals could no longer do so, we'd see a huge hike in the costs of these industries, and the end product/service to the consumer. A hotel who used to pay a maid 3.50 an hour, now has to pay 7.00 etc. That just DOUBLED their costs! Do you think they won't raise the room price?

In the end equation, the politicians have to balance the monetary figure being lost in uncollectable taxes, with the estimated raised cost to industries, to determine if this is really a good idea. If it costs the taxpayers, businesses less to keep the illegals working, then that's what is going to happen folks, and you'll vote for it too, before you pay $200 for a $100 hotel room, or $10 for a $5 burger.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
The Feds have chosen not to enforce their law due to politics.

Then the real problem is the law is moot and should no longer be law. Is isn't working, it does nothing but cause division (while nothing to cure the problem).

This whole thing is stupid. Outside of Native Americans, America is nothing but the result of immigration. That is what made us. What changed that immigration is no longer feasible legally for those who want it?

CHANGE THE STUPID LAW!

If people want to come here and contribute legally isn't that better then having them here anyway (which they are, like it or not) hiding under the radar and not paying their fair share into the system (though somehow being able to take advantage of some of it's perks). Make it work.

For a Country that is predominently of Judeo/Christian faiths there sure are a lot of hypocrites out there.

quotes posted by DYepes

Sure it sucks if your goal is to be the richest entity in the world and watch whole other nations suffer even when you have the ability to help change that.

REPLY: We're not alone in that goal, but it's more that just that idea in general; being a properous country allows people to help themselves, which is what the country was founded upon. America has shown that individual liberty and freedom is the soulution to the human condition. The only way we can help those other countries is to try to help them achieve those same things.... individual liberty and freedom.

As much as we'd like to help many countries, they have to ask for it, and the possibilities of that changes from country to country, depending on the form of government they have. Most of the poor countries, and Mexico falls into that category, are that way because of either being run by tyrants or dictators, or because of Marxist/Socialist/Communist economic policies. Mexico is awash in natural resources, but the people get no support from their government to allow them to provide for themselves.

Personally I feel most of the illegals are just the people who have absolutley nothing left to lose

REPLY: If that is their situation, then they should fight to get rid of the government they have, and make things better in their own country. If they are not going to be "patriots' in their own country, they probably won't do it here, either.

Many of these people are or have families or dependants who rely on them for survival that for whatever reason, could not be provided back home.

REPLY: I think I got pretty close to the reasons, above.

by DYepes: What rights are they being entitled to that your grandfather did not have? I am just curious to know.

REPLY: In the past people immigrated here to become Americans, in most instances, that is no longer the case. Previous immigrants were granted certain rights because of that fact... they were EARNING those rights.

In California alone, they have a net loss of $6 Billion a year in tax money, used for providing services for people that haven't earned them; money that should be going to citizens. That figure factors in the services provided by them working here.

Did your parents have signs and literature printed in their language? (another cost to taxpayers). There are people.... citizens.... losing their jobs, or being denied work because they can't speak Spanish.

by Vasilis Azoth: "I am a Rational Anarchist. I have the right to go whereever I please on this planet and no one has the right to impede that."

REPLY: I believe the words Rational Anarchist are mutually exclusive; an oxymoron. Your supposed "right" to planetary travel is a delusion, as each country has their own "rights" allowed their people. Depending on where you go, it very well could lead to a much shorter life.

"..... governments are as imaginary as the lines between them."

REPLY: Those illusions are quite expensive to run and maintain.

by truth smuggler: " we should be free to roam about wherever. i think the root of this antagosim is due wholly to racism

REPLY: Nothing is free. There is a cause and effect no matter where you go. Lawbreaking has nothing to do with race. Anyone breaking the law belongs to a certain race, so you can apply the term "racism" to anyone breaking the law, which is irrational.

by Relentless: "For a Country that is predominently of Judeo/Christian..."

REPLY: Are you forgetting about the separation of Church and State which has been imposed upon us (but which is nowhere in the Constitution)? Immigration is feasible, and we do it every year, legally, for about 280,000 people, so it works. We don't need another law, we need to enforce the ones we have.

If people want to come here and contribute legally...."

REPLY: Ummmmmm thats the problem being discussed; those who are NOT here legally.

Originally posted by Gazrok
Simply put, illegal aliens steal public goods and services. They use those services without paying the income tax which is used to support them. In essence, this is theft, and theft of millions if not billions of dollars.

I worked in a shop that hired mostly illegal immigrants from latin America, all of these employees would take the maximum amount of deductions on their W2 so they could increase their takehome pay, claiming five dependants even though they admitted they were single with no children.

Originally posted by GazrokYou can be damn sure that if I wanted to go live in another country, I'd sure make the effort to learn to speak and read the language pronto...

A number of the workers in the shop had been in the United States for years, and still spoke not a word of english, I had to deal with them through an interpreter.

Originally posted by GazrokHowever, there are economic impacts to consider. Illegals perform a large degree of menial labor for low wages (low, because one isn't concerned with minimum wage when paying under the table).

The average wage for the menial labor guys was $11.00Hr, plus at least 18 hours of overtime per week. The mechanics get an average of $17.50 with an average of 18hrs overtime every week plus a bonus program that is a percentage of all the work they perform. Minimum wages? I think not, they get hired because they won't try to unionize, or fail to show up for work the day after payday, or demand all kinds of special treatment. The average mechanic earns over 50K per year.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
an ordinance that makes it illegal for illegal immigrants to reside there.
... fine landlords who rent to illegals as well as businesses who employ
or do business with illegals.

Geee ... look what a small town can do! Something that the feds haven't
been able to. DC should be hanging their heads in shame and taking notes on
what should be done.

Groups sympathetic to illegals have already voiced opposition and promise to sue the City.

Screw 'em.

Originally posted by Relentless
CHANGE THE STUPID LAW!

ENFORCE the law! Hey .. that would be new! Actually enforce it.
Build the wall. Secure the borders. Make it so that illegals wouldn't want to
come here. Penalize employers who hire them. Stop with the giveaways to illegals. Heck .. stopping the giveaways would pay for the freak'n wall!!

he City Council of Hazleton, Pennsylvania has taken the issue of illegal immigration into its own hands, by passing an ordinance that makes it illegal for illegal immigrants to reside there

Making it illegal for illegal immigrants to reside there? Isn't this redundant?

Ooops sorry, I already got beat to it. Haha my bad

Originally posted by zappafan1

by Relentless: "For a Country that is predominently of Judeo/Christian..."

REPLY: Are you forgetting about the separation of Church and State which has been imposed upon us (but which is nowhere in the Constitution)? Immigration is feasible, and we do it every year, legally, for about 280,000 people, so it works. We don't need another law, we need to enforce the ones we have.

I was actually commenting on the uncharitable attitude of so many people, not making a comment that the government should do it because of a "Church". For those of you who don't seem to get what I mean about my reference to what I see as a conflict of Judeo/Christian belief systems - it start's in the Old Testament, pretty early on. God frequently reminding "His People" to treat aliens well, as His People were often aliens themselves.

So it works? You don't have to look further than this thread - it's not working the way it is now.

If people want to come here and contribute legally...."

REPLY: Ummmmmm thats the problem being discussed; those who are NOT here legally.

Yes, and what I am saying is that obviously the current system doesn't work, so give them a way to be Americans if they want to, cut out the freebies and allow them to be fully functional and contributing members of society.

Give them the same chance our grandparents had, to come to America, work hard and make a life for themselves. In all honesty I think a lot of them would put current Americans to shame.

The only good thing I can see in this is that it is a grassroots perogative. To take the law as it is, and be able to enforce it for themselves.

Now, if they or some other town decided to make illegals welcome and vote in a law that made them legal--against US federal regulations--then I could see people getting their panties in a bunch.

And the feds too.


DYepes, PR has had numerous chances to become a state. They don't want to, they like it fine the way they are. Well, most of them--the majority that votes.

I am very pleased that Hazelton is passing this law. I live about 45 minutes from there, and I agree that it is about time Pennsylvania and other states start enforcing the laws concerning illegal aliens. I would like to see more action taking place concerning immigration, however.
No one should be defending these people who have no right to be here in the first place. It is true that we are the "melting pot", but all those who came to this country before paid there dues first and foremost and then flourished. If those people want to live here they should learn to speak English and be aware of our laws as well.
This is just my opinion, however. I would like to hear more about what everyone else here thinks about the requirements, laws, ect. for illegals. You can read an in-depth story about it here: www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,203513,00.html

Our immigrant forbearers paid their dues by working their asses off typically in the dirties, most labor-intensive jobs. That is what these people are doing. Unite this continent under one entity and the immigration problem will be mostly solved. The Southern border would be so small it could easily be completely monitored and secured against any further infiltration. We would just have to worry about the Chinese who come here in Cargo containers on the West Coast.