Blasts in India financial capital.

You can say my post was political "baiting" but there already were previous posts insinuating somehow the current US administration had some influence on this vile killing of innocents.

The evil of radical islam rears it's cowardly, violent head again.

Yet many in America still keep their head in the sand...

Cutting Bait

Originally posted by Apoc
You can say my post was political "baiting"

I can, I did, and I was right.

Hindsight Prophet

Originally posted by Apoc
but there already were previous posts insinuating somehow the current US administration had some influence on this vile killing of innocents.

That's not what you said:

Originally posted by Apoc
How long before some 9/11 conspiracy believing, tin-hatted liberal blames Bush.?

Your own words suggest no one already had. Also, I read the thread.

One member pointed out that Bush had spoken there, but didn't blame him -- and he definitely isn't a liberal (he's the FSME for Conservative ideology).

Here's some advice: don't argue with me about what's political. I'm the Political Board Leader, for crying out loud.

Rather, please understand that I welcome your political commentary on PTS with open arms, but here, it will get you in trouble.

Let's all please avoid further off-topic digressions -- including me. From here on out, I will simply take action if further political baiting occurs.

Topic: Blasts in India financial capital

Not Bush. Let's please stay on topic.

The latest figures put the dead at 183 and over 663 injured. I expect both the numbers to rise.

There were a total of 7 blasts on the Western line of the Mumbai Suburban Train Network or Local Trains as mumbaites call them. The blasts occured at (in chronological order) Khar - 18:24, Bandra - 18:24, Jogeshwari - 18:25, Mahim 18:26, Mira Road 18:29, Matunga 18:30 & Borivali - 18:35. All blasts tookn place in the General First Class compartments.

A little background in the rail network. The Local trains are one of the busiest in the world. They carry an average of 7.2 million people everyday. During peak hours (morning 8-10 & evenining 5-7) a 9-coach local with a capacity of 1700 carries an average of 4700 people. This is known as "super dense crush load" (believe me the term is most appropriate). This translates to between 1.4 - 1.6 bodies per sq.foot. The Western line plies between Churchgate & Virar. It connects the more affluent of the suburbs of Mumbai with the main city centre.

The blasts led to major traffic jams as a sea of humanity descended upon the bus & road networks. This created problems in getting the relief to the blast sites and getting the injured to the hospitals. However the hospitals seemed to have coped well with the situation. At most sites it is the local residents and the commuters of the trains themselves that undertook rescue operations immediately.

The rail officials worked tirelessly to get the Western Line up and running again within 3 hours of the incidents. However full functionality was returned only this morning. The Central & Harbour lines were running throughout.

The police say the IEDs (Improvised Explosice Device) used RDX and were remote controlled. The reason that the blasts took place in the General First Class compartments is that during peak hours these are the most crowded (even more so than the Second Class compartments) and most people carry briefcases & work bags of some sort. Hence nobody pays notice to any bag lying on the racks.

The police have just announced that they have a 'solid clue' as to the identity of the perpetrators but it is too early to disclose any information. General doubt is on the Lashker-e-Toiba (a Pakistan Occupied Kashmir based militant outfit having links with Al-Qaeda)

There were hundreds of people out on the streets yesterday distributing water & food packets to commuters stuck on the roads. People opened up their houses to strangers for the night. The hospitals were overwhelmed with people wanting to donate blood for the injured. So much so that they had turn a lot of them away.

The city is functioning normally today. There were a few apprehensions early in the morning about using the trains but that is past now and people are using the Western Line again. There are no signs of the blasts at any of the sites. It has all been cleared overnight.

Attendance is schools and colleges is higher than normal, the stock market is up about 200 points. All offices and business establishments are functioning.

Life goes on for Mumbai...

Here's something that's frequenting Indian websites/blogs and inboxes:

Dear Terrorist,

Even if you are not reading this we don't care. Time and again you tried to disturb us and disrupt our life - killing innocent civilians by planting bombs in trains, buses and cars. You have tried hard to bring death and destruction, cause panic and fear and create communal disharmony but everytime you were disgustingly unsuccessful. Do you know how we pass our life in Mumbai? How much it takes for us to earn that single rupee? If you wanted to give us a shock then we are sorry to say that you failed miserably in your ulterior motives. Better look elsewere, not here.

We are not Hindus and Muslims or Gujaratis and Marathis or Punjabis and Bengaliies. Nor do we distinguish ourselves as owners or workers, govt.
employees or private employees. WE ARE MUMBAIKERS (Bombay-ites, if you like). We will not allow you to disrupt our life like this. On the last few occassions when you struck (including the 7 deadly blasts in a single day killing over 250 people and injuring 500+ in 1993), we went to work next day in full strength. This time we cleared everything within a few hours and were back to normal - the vendors placing their next order, businessmen finalizing the next deals and the office workers rushing to catch the next train. (Yes the same train you targetted)

Fathom this: Within 3 hours of the blasts, long queues of blood donating volunteers were seen outside various hospital, where most of the injured were admitted. By 12 midnight, the hospital had to issue a notification that blood banks were full and they didn't require any more blood. The next day, attendance at schools and office was close to 100%, trains & buses were packed to the brim, the crowds were back.
The city has simply dusted itself off and moved one - perhaps with greater vigour.

We are Mumbaikers and we live like brothers in times like this. So, do not dare to threaten us with your crackers. The spirit of Mumbai is very strong and can not be harmed.

Please forward this to others. U never know, by chance it may come to hands of a terrorist in Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iraq and he can then read this message which is specially meant for him!!!

With Love,
From the people of Mumbai (Bombay) and India

On a different note those who are looking for their loved ones in the Mumbai blasts please try this link. It has a list of all deceased and injured that have been identified so far.

When Defeat Is Not Possible

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Here's something that's frequenting Indian websites/blogs and inboxes:

That is one of the most remarkable messages I have read in quite a while.

For any of our members in India, please know that my heart is with you, and that in addition to sorrow, I am compelled to express my admiration.

Yours is a spirit which cannot be broken.

What DD3 said is absolutely correct. That open letter sums it all up for Mumbaikars.

On another note the Maharashtra Police had been conducting raids and arrests from January to March in an attempt to thwart various terror cells in the area. I believe the largest arms chache in a decade was recovered in Aurangabad (city in Maharashtra). They claim that these acts have been perpetrated by one cell which managed to escape the hunt during that period.

Originally posted by Majic
When Defeat Is Not Possible

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Here's something that's frequenting Indian websites/blogs and inboxes:

That is one of the most remarkable messages I have read in quite a while.

For any of our members in India, please know that my heart is with you, and that in addition to sorrow, I am compelled to express my admiration.

Yours is a spirit which cannot be broken.

Thankyou Majic..
That was a very motivating message during this hard time for all of us. I stay in a city just 200km from Bombay called Pune. We have many here who have lost their loved ones.
But we will not let those bast*rds achieve what they've set out to do. We will not sit in our houses and fear.We will not close our offices,shops and stop our daily lives. We will not turn on our brothers of different faith. Those who did this aren't muslim. Damn, they aren't even human.

Bombay, and India will show what secularism is all about.

The whole region has been troubled for the past 60 years or so. The Brits were like Saddam in Iraq they were the glue that held the place together. Despite what the media would have use think there are other terrorists organizations apart from al qaeda.

Another thing:

There were two threads on this topic, one on this forum and the other on the War on Terror forum.
Surprisingly the one in the War on Terror forum was closed.
Isn't this topic more suited to that forum. Can we please shift it there?I don't see why this is not relevant to the War on Terror.

Thanks.

edit double post..

The region hasn't been troubled by terrorism as such for the past 60 years. Yes wars have been fought but terrorism,attacks on civilians and infact the whole insurgency ops in Kashmir started post 1988-89;just after the end of the Soviet Afghan war.It is no coincidence.
Please don't compare the subcontinent to Pre-Post Saddam Iraq. You might as well compare every other terror target in the globe to the same then..


[edit on 12-7-2006 by Daedalus3]

DD3: actually did'nt insurgency and terrorism start from 1984 onwards. Although it is true that it got a major boost post '89. Remember Punjab

Anyway things are normal in Mumbai right now. Everyone is a bit edgy but thats to be expected. Rumours of more blasts dont help though, although some of them are hilarious

Originally posted by Daedalus3
The region hasn't been troubled by terrorism as such for the past 60 years. Yes wars have been fought but terrorism,attacks on civilians and infact the whole insurgency ops in Kashmir started post 1988-89;just after the end of the Soviet Afghan war.It is no coincidence.

I hate to break this to you but there were problems in the region before 1988 note these problems may not be directly related in any insurgency. The insurgency may not have started untill the late 1980s but surely the seeds were laid long before 1988. You cant deny that the region has had its fair share of problems.

Please don't compare the subcontinent to Pre-Post Saddam Iraq. You might as well compare every other terror target in the globe to the same then..

Dont jump the gun so fast I wasnt comparing the geographical locations. I was pointing out that both the Brits and Saddam controlled the security situation in both countries.

[edit on 12-7-2006 by xpert11]

Thanks for posting that open letter Daedalus3, you got my WATS vote for that

It reminds me of what happened here in New York City after 9/11. Unfortunely all the blood donated really never got used for that tragedy since most people walked out of the WTC with barely a scratch or were completely pulverized.

Again, I'd like to extend my thoughts and prayers to the Indian people. Continue to keep your chins up and fight this menace. Hopefully someday it will end and we can all live in peace.

We are not Hindus and Muslims or Gujaratis and Marathis or Punjabis and Bengaliies. Nor do we distinguish ourselves as owners or workers, govt.
employees or private employees. WE ARE MUMBAIKERS (Bombay-ites, if you like). We will not allow you to disrupt our life like this.

If America is the melting-pot, India is the mish-mash.

To get an excellent understanding of the mash of humanity in that land, I recommend this book "A Fine Balance" by Rohinton Mistry...

"Does A Fine Balance show people's vulnerability, or their fortitude?"

www.randomhouse.com...

"Astonishing. . . . A rich and varied spectacle, full of wisdom and laughter and the touches of the unexpectedly familiar through which literature illuminates life." --Wall Street Journal

Rohinton Mistry creates unforgettable characters and vast social panoramas on the scale of Dickens and Victor Hugo, and he shares, as well, their remarkable generosity of spirit.

"Those who continue to harp on the decline of the novel ought to . . . consider Rohinton Mistry," wrote the New York Times. "He needs no infusion of magic realism to vivify the real. The real world, through his eyes, is magical."

Even Oprah picked it. It truly does show a wonderfully compassionate people living in most astounding conditions. Very readable too, starts in 1975 and tells some important history of the regions.

Read it to see where your shirts came from.


(The only reason I can see that it isn't an ATSSN special is that the rules for making a news item are so stringent that the thread starter didn't want to bother with all the comments, links, and quotes required. That takes skill and the time and motivation to do it.)

[edit on 12-7-2006 by psyopswatcher]

Originally posted by puneetsg
DD3: actually did'nt insurgency and terrorism start from 1984 onwards. Although it is true that it got a major boost post '89. Remember Punjab

Anyway things are normal in Mumbai right now. Everyone is a bit edgy but thats to be expected. Rumours of more blasts dont help though, although some of them are hilarious

You're talking about the Sikh insurgency. I was talking about Kashmir. But true both were insurgencies and both targeted civilians, only one got much more foreign aid than the other. Infact the instigators learnt much from the Sikh insurgency and used much more non-indian recruits than indian as the sikh insurgency eventually died out because
of one thing only:
No true countryman will want to kill another countryman. The 'Khalistan Dream' still exists but only in the minds of some retards in the UK/Canada/Scandanavia/EU/US. In Punjab it has no mention. Kashmir is a problem because 95% and maybe even more of all those who pick up the gun to fight for this 'independance' are foreign fighters.
The kashmir insurgency didn't exist before 1988. Only those fighters(who were left directionless after the soviets pulled out of Afghanistan and the US withdrew covert support)took to the 'Kashmir cause'.
Not many even know that the 7 Mumbai blasts were synched with 5 in Kashmir.

Before that Kashmir didn't have any 'insuregency' problems. True Pakistan has had its eyes on Kashmir since independance (1947) but they didn't resort to this proxy war until 1988.They tried in 3 wars by force, the they tried to instigate a home grown
movement in both Punjab and Kashmir for over a decade and when that failed they started injecting fighters.

I just wish India had the nuclear-free liberty to do with Pakistan what Israel does with Gaza everytime a suicide bombers attacks or something. The military superiority is overwhelming, the plans are there; it could be done and finished with under 20 hours. Only problem is that Pakistan threateningly wields the pre-emptive nuclear option.
Maybe even Pakistan can't control these freaks anymore, though I seriously doubt it.

Chitralnews: Imamat Day : His Highness the Aga Khan IV
Imamat Day is a special day for Ismaili Muslims.

]
The Isamili muslims have been remarked to be something like the "Illuminati of the East", at least in so far as they are often seen as being behind conspiracies to overthrow the state.

How much it takes for us to earn that single rupee? If you wanted to give us a shock then we are sorry to say that you failed miserably in your ulterior motives. Better look elsewere, not here.

We are not Hindus and Muslims or Gujaratis and Marathis or Punjabis and Bengaliies. Nor do we distinguish ourselves as owners or workers, govt.
employees or private employees. WE ARE MUMBAIKERS (Bombay-ites, if you like). We will not allow you to disrupt our life like this.

Cheers to the mumbaikers then!

I particularly liked this

The city has simply dusted itself off and moved one - perhaps with greater vigour.

We are Mumbaikers and we live like brothers in times like this. So, do not dare to threaten us with your crackers

The city shakes it off and moves on, because its bigger than these barbaric savages. And with all that, it laughs at its attacks, calling them fire-crackers, kids toys.

The Brits were like Saddam in Iraq they were the glue that held the place together

Indians have a very strong sense of identity and nationalism, they don't need the brits to keep them toghter, and this even clearly shows. There are a lot of sectarian fights in India, thats for sure, but they're not going to let a bunch of cowardly women killing outsiders tear them apart!

. I was pointing out that both the Brits and Saddam controlled the security situation in both countries.

Thats just ridiculous. Hussein used the most brutal of forces to suppress and destroy anything other than his tikriti based sunni tribes. India, even under the british, was nothing like that. India has clearly had sectarian violence and problems, before, during, and after the british, but its not some society that is about to become unhinged or that can only be held together by thuggish force.

DD3
Only problem is that Pakistan threateningly wields the pre-emptive nuclear option.

And India in kind threatens Pakistan with nuke attack, and why shouldn't pakistan threaten nuke attack to ward off invasion?
India and Pakistan and Bangladesh used to be one country, hopefully the paks will drop this idiocy of funding terror groups in kashmir and the three countries will realize that they have more incommon than in difference.

First of all


date toll rises to 195 acc to a source
Islamic student's Group SIMI executed the blast planned by Laskar e Toiba

Authorities identify the main suspect...forgot his name ...Indian authorities say he has fled to Pakistan

Many Indians complain of failure of Intellegence to stop continuous terrorist attacks in thje country

Indian media complain of the failure of Mobile service providers in providing connection at the hours of need

Mumbai today back to life

Another blast in Kashmir today...2 dead

Indian authorities complain of the reaction of Pak foreign minister who said something like.....We condem the Blast ....But such acts will continue until the KASHMIR ISSUE IS NOT RESOLVED



my views

Pak authorities are bastards feeding these son of bitches like laskar e toiba

US palying double standards as they always have been on one way they condem the attack on the other Pakistan is their major ally in the "war against terrorism"

I consider the British the main culprits behind this Kashmir Issue (most Indians know why..rest may read History of Indian Independence)



[edit on 12-7-2006 by prelude]

Originally posted by Nygdan
And India in kind threatens Pakistan with nuke attack, and why shouldn't pakistan threaten nuke attack to ward off invasion?

No it doesn't. And that's what most don't understand. India doesn't need nuclear weapons to deal with Pakistan. If one were to take and OrBaat (Order of Battle) assessment on the two forces today, it would be clear that India holds a overwhelming advantage not only in obvious numbers but in technology, reserves and eceonomic sustainibility required to wage a war.
In a full-scale war Pakistan doesn't stand a chance, beyond a fortnight or so.Nationalism aside this is a pure fact.
That is the whole baseline for the Pakistan nuclear program.India has not once openly threatened to use nuclear weapons on Pakistan or any other neighbour for that matter.
Pakistan has publicly expressed its 'right' to exercise the nuclear option at 'any stage'.
India has a no-first use policy with nuclear weapons. The only other country in the world which abides by the same is China. If both stick to this, it negates ALL possibility of nuclear war between the two.Why do these countries follow such a policy?
It is because they are confident that their conventional forces are capable of warding of ANY aggression.
Why a country like the US which holds conventional superiority over evybody else doesn't do the same is a question to be asked, perhaps later though.

My point is that Pakistan cannot continue to conduct this proxy war and then wave the nuclear option whenever India threatens to retaliate conventionally.
India has the firepower,resources, technology and know-how to do to Pakistan occupied Kashmir(thats where they train those worms) what Israel does to Gaza everytime a Hamas/Hizbullah guy attacks civilians in Israel.
I can assure you that in under 20 hours India could cripple the terrorist network across the border, w/o facing worthwhile resistance. But nobody knows how Pakistan will react. The only sureshot way for them(Pakistan) to win would be to open another front somewhere down south;which they would eventually lose in anyways;which brings us back to their pre-emptive nuclear option.

If Pakistan does to the Kashmir insurgency what it did to the Taliban post 9/11, I guarantee you that India see that last of these terror attacks in the next 5-10 years.

But one must understand that Kashmir is an ideology which Pakistan strives on and clings onto. Especially after 9/11 since it has betrayed its brothers in Afghanistan. If Pakistan lets go of Kashmir, Pakistan ceases to identify itself. Pakistan cannot afford that when it is currently facing so much internal turmoil anyways.
May it be a tyrannical general in power, or a democratically elected man, or the first woman PM elect for any Muslim nation:
When it comes to Kashmir, they all see eye to eye. They HAVE to. Its their vote/popularity magnet. I may sound a little extreme when I say this, but the Kashmir Ideology is what has held Pakistan together through its in-fighting.

So you see it is a very very difficult situation. And while it remains unresolved, innocents lose their lives here in India. It is mind-boggling. Makes you want to scream



[edit on 12-7-2006 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by Daedalus3
India doesn't need nuclear weapons to deal with Pakistan.

Now that pakistan has them India does, either way, both nations threaten the other with force, and both feel entirely justified. I agree, india would wipe the floor with pakistan, if it came to an unrestrained (though non-nuclear) war. Of course, the pakistanis would be able to put up a post-war resistance that would destabilize india itself, so it'd be a phyrric victory in a sense.

In a full-scale war Pakistan doesn't stand a chance, beyond a fortnight or so.Nationalism aside this is a pure fact.

[
Lets also keep in mind that india and pakistan have been to war before and neither conquered the other.

Why a country like the US which holds conventional superiority over evybody else doesn't do the same is a question to be asked, perhaps later though.

?
Because a first strike can wipe out an entire nations nuke response force, cities, and conventional army. It makes sense for india to have their nukes only to use after being hit, because the pakistanis can't wipe them out. THe soviets could wipe the US out.

My point is that Pakistan cannot continue to conduct this proxy war and then wave the nuclear option whenever India threatens to retaliate conventionally.

Why not? It makes perfect sense, from a military standpoint. Destablize india by supplying insurgents and militias, and prevent india from invading by threatening a nuke strike.

If Pakistan does to the Kashmir insurgency what it did to the Taliban post 9/11, I guarantee you that India see that last of these terror attacks in the next 5-10 years.

I tend to agree, with out knowing too much on the area though. The anti-indian militias are generally recognized as being supported by Pakistan (just like the Pakistanis essentialyl created the Taliban, etc).
BUT, the caveat is, the pakistani central government isn't a monolithic as it appears, and in addition to that there are powerful regional groups, like in waziristan, etc, that can act relatively independant of the central government.

What is the general perception, I wonder, of Musharraf, amoung indians in india? Do people think that he is overseeing the projects to fund these groups, or that he is aware of other government BTOs that fund them, but unwilling to stop them, or that he is aware, but unable to stop them?

It has to be admited, he's a dictator, but he's not in control of the country, military, and intelligence services.

When it comes to Kashmir, they all see eye to eye. They HAVE to. Its their vote/popularity magnet. I may sound a little extreme when I say this, but the Kashmir Ideology is what has held Pakistan together through its in-fighting.

Not for nothing, but is kashmir, on its own, even worth it?
I mean, you obviously can't give in just because someone demands it, but, isn't kashmir populated mostly by muslims anyway? Is it all that important, on its own, to people throughout india?
Sort of reminds me of Northern Ireland, hardly worth the trouble for the British (except, of course, that there are huge numbers of britishers living in it).

And while it remains unresolved, innocents lose their lives here in India. It is mind-boggling. Makes you want to scream

The pressure clearly belongs on pakistan, they can maintain a claim to kashmir forever, but they can't equip and encourage the rebels within it (or continue to flood it with rebels for that matter). They are responsible for the violence. India can't do anything to stop it, other than to give up.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
You're talking about the Sikh insurgency. I was talking about Kashmir.

Yes i understand the fundamental difference between the 2, but nonetheless both were insurgencies

The Punjab problem was solved because of the loss of popular support from the comman man. I feel that this is the only way the Kashmir problem can be resolved too. I do however see that happening within the next 5-10 years. Its been what, 3-4 years since the state has begun to see tourists again. They are finally getting back their only source of income after a decade (in which their living conditions have deteriorated incredibly) and the terrorists have started targetting tourists now. This will drive tourism down again, and hence hit their livelyhood. Remember money matters to the Kashmiris who have seen a lot of hard times and if the terrorists try to take away their income again they will loose any sort of support they may have

Originally posted by Daedalus3
I just wish India had the nuclear-free liberty to do with Pakistan what Israel does with Gaza everytime a suicide bombers attacks or something. The military superiority is overwhelming, the plans are there; it could be done and finished with under 20 hours. Only problem is that Pakistan threateningly wields the pre-emptive nuclear option.

Maybe even Pakistan can't control these freaks anymore, though I seriously doubt it.

Very true, agree with you completely. I dont think the Pakistani government has a great degree of control over these people