Chechen warlord killed

Originally posted by Duby78
Yeah, he was 'killed' quite a few times. What do you people think, did Russians get him this time? I wouldn't bet on it.

The Russians didn't get him, "Allah" did. By one of his own weapons which was a truck full of dynamite.

This time he really is dead. The spokesman for the rebels confirmed his death.

The question is how the dynamite truck exploded. Several sources indicate it was accidental, while others say it was a special operation carried out by either local police or the Federal troops. The only media sources in Ingushetia are Russian, and it is still unclear what exactly happened.

There were also rumors that Basayev was preparing to carry out an attack somewhere around Ingushetia or Dagestan during the G8 Summit to draw attention to Chechnya.

Originally posted by Souljah
What about Chechen Children killed in First and Second Chechen War?

What about them? Souljah, I expected you, of all people, to not side with an evil warlord that has in FACT killed many innocet women and children (probably from his own gun). Yeah, the Russians did the same and that was bad...yes? So why in your opinion is it not bad for the rebels to do it?

Originally posted by trIckz_R_fO_kIdz
Yes see you know the facts, thanks for backing up the truth on this.

I don't think anyone in this thread is not denying what the Russians have done....so what are you argueing about? The TRUTH is that your glorified warlord is a murderer, a killer of inncoent women and children....are you denying this?

Someone says the rebels killed 100 kids and blew up a school, you say but the Russians did too, that makes it OK.

I doubt his death was accidental. Sounds like the Chechens aren't yet ready to admit they're getting their ceollective asses handed to them with the recent deaths of Sadulayev and Maskhadov.

But if it was "accidental", if he basically killed himself, does that mean he still get's 72 virgins?

[edit on 7/11/2006 by The Crow]

Originally posted by maloy
That number would make about 50% of prewar Chechen population. However with about 40% evacuated during the war, and at least 600,000 remaining in the republic after the war- these numbers do no add up.

They don't? Why is that? You just can not accept the FACT about the Russian Genocide in Chechnya. Looks like they Killed alot of People.

Can you source this statistic because it seems highly unrealistic and misleading.

At least I offer links to MY sources - but we must belive you and your words without any back-up to proove them.

In 1991 there were about 1 million people in Chechnya I believe. Out of those, about 35% were ethnic Russians. When the Chechen separatists started pushing for independence, Russia did not interevene at first. It didn't start out as a peaceful take over either, as the first move by Dudayev was to kill the former leader of the region- Vitali Kutsenko, when the rebels stormed the Congress. Then the separatists knew that they would not achieve independence unless the Russian minority is silenced. In 1991 Dusayev and the rebels started an ethnic cleansing of the Russian minority. Soon they started raiding nearby Russian bases and warehouses for weapons, while Russia didn't yet interfere. In order to obtain needed funds, Chechnya became a warlord state in 1992- with major drug smuggling and weapon smuggling operations there carried out byt he rebels. It appeared to be turning into another Taliban regime, so Russia decided to interefere.

Awesome Man! You work for Russian Army? Well I guess it is so easy today to label just about any Muslim country a "Taliban-Terrorist Regime", since then you will have the full support of USA and the G.W.Bush for pursuing the "Evildoers". And Russia also is playing on this card, since their DIRTY WAR in Chechnya has triggered several attacks on Their Soil. But ofcourse yet again the Poor Russians are seen as the Victim and the Chechens are seen as the Terrorists.

Why don't you go back in History and tell us what Peter the "Great" did to the Chechen People, when he Annexed Chechnya after a Brutal and Bloody Massacres of these People, which the Russians called BANDITI, clearly showing the Level of Respect. How does president Putin call them today?

Banditi.

They are no Human Beings - just Banditi.

Russian interference was justified by many reasons:

1. Killing and forced migration of ethnic Russians by Dudayev's rebels.

2. Raiding of army posts of the Russian Federation.

3. Massive drug and weapon smuggling operations throughout the anarchy state.

4. If Chechnya was allowed to break off, nearly every of the 80 or so Russian provinces (regions) should be allowed to do the same- thus you would have 80 small, weak, poor nations, which would become threatened by neighbors like China. There is a reason why US fought the civil war between North and South. This is the same situation. You cannot allow the state as a whole to break apart because some minority wants to be independent.

JUSTIFY THIS:

1. War on Children

2. War Crimes In Chechnya

3. Crimes of War

4. Russia Buries Evidence of Atrocities

Are you a Russian?

Because for Russians always look at People of Caucasus as Bandits, and even the Russian Goverment, does not refer to them as Human Beings, but as Bandits, as referd to by Vladimir Rushailo, the Russian Interior Minister.

"There are only two ways to cope with the bandits - either to liquidate them or to put them in the dock!"

Is that Your Opinion?

Now why did you not mention these REASONS for Chechen Wars?

The Spoils of Oils

A major oil pipeline carries oil from fields in Baku on the Caspian Sea and Chechnya toward the Ukraine. Grozny has a major oil refinery along this pipeline. For Russia it is important that the oil pipelines and routes they take so oil can be sold to the western markets also meet their needs. However, there are various pipelines in discussion that does not involve Russia.

Major Western oil companies and the American government managed to keep out Iran from the picture. In addition, by also getting oil pipelines routed through Georgia, Russian influence was reduced. As a result, Russia want to do what they can to control the spoils, while the West do the same, leaving Chechnya in the middle being fought for by the two.

Ring a Bell?

No?

How about This?

OIL AND THE BATTLE FOR CHECHNYA

How about Petrodollars Behind the Chechen Tragedy? No?

I guess you somehow "Skipped" that Part of the Story, and started with the "Terrible-Terrorists" Talk, right?

Don't get too worked up about it buddy before you give yourself an aneurism.
Civilians will always die in a war, it's one of the major reaons why war sucks. According to iraqbodycount.com a minimum of 38,960 Iraqi civilians have died so far thanks to the U.S. invasion. That's kind of a little genecide of itself by your logic, right?

Originally posted by SportyMB
What about them? Souljah, I expected you, of all people, to not side with an evil warlord that has in FACT killed many innocet women and children (probably from his own gun). Yeah, the Russians did the same and that was bad...yes? So why in your opinion is it not bad for the rebels to do it?

It Takes Two To Tango - and you should know that.

International Committee for the Children of Chechnya

• The current population of Chechnya is estimated at 450,000. Before the beginning of the war in 1994 it was over one million.
  
  
• An estimated 250,000 Chechens have died as a result of the war. An estimated l50,000 Chechens live outside the country as refugees.
  
  
• An estimated 150,000 Chechens are internally displaced and live in basements and bombed out buildings.
  
  
• An estimated 75 percent of the land is environmentally contaminated.
  
  
• About 40,000 children died in the war.
  
  
• There are 26,000 orphans.
  
  
• About 14,000 children are invalids.
  
  
• One child in two is born with a birth defect.
  
  
• An estimated 80 percent of pregnant women suffer pregnancy-related ailments.
  
  
• An estimated 40 percent of children suffer sight or hearing problems.
  
  
• Only five percent of children with hearing, sight or speech impairment receive education.
  
  
• An estimated 70 percent of children examined have tuberculosis.

Tell me - why is that OKEY?

Why is everbody Ignoring the FACT that 40.000+ Children have been killed by the Brutal Russian Military Occupation (Genocide), yet on the other side you are so angry about the Beslan School Siege.

How Many Beslans Happened in Chechnya?

Apparently 215 Beslans Happened to Chechen Children.

I guess that is Enough for Some People to Rise up and Fight.

Would it be Enough for you to watch 40.000 Children be Killed and half of your Population decimated?

Trick_r_for_kids and Soljah bot get WAT's from me.

It's easy to get caught in this WOT rubbish and really start to belive people are fighting becuase they hate freedom when in fact they are only fighting for the nations freedom and Chechnya is one of those countries that is fighting for there freedom.

People are always shocked about besland and how they would target a school. Russia also targets shools and destory them.

Proof :

1 )School that russia destroyed/attacked :
www.hrvc.net...

2)School that russia destroyed/attacked with an artillery shell.
www.hrvc.net...

3)Childrens centre which russia destroyed/attacked :
www.hrvc.net...


These are the double standards which force people to become extreame. When extreame violence is put against helpless people they will always result to extreme tactics to free themselves. Chechnya is one of the sadist stories of our lifetimes. if we had helped them when they needed it beslan would have never happened.

Also the person a few posts back who acted as if this had started in 1991 please stop pretending this happend in 1991 the war by russia against chechnyans has been going on for decades way before 1991 russia has been killing chechnyans civillians even before 1950's thre are also records going back hundreds of years for chechnya wanting freedom. Also lets not forget stalins mass deportation of Chechnyans where thousands and thousands of civillians died.

Well there is another Version of this Story:

Shamil became a Shaheed (insha Allah)

The Chechen commander died as a result of an accidental spontaneous explosion of a truck, loaded with explosives on July 10 2006 in the region of the village Ekazhevo in Ingushetia. Three other Mujahideen became Shaheeds (insha Allah) together with him.

The representative of Military Council has not reported any other details. At the same time he denied all claims of Russian side about a "special operation" against Shamil Basayev as a result of which ostensibly, the Chechen commander die.

"There was no special operation whatsoever. Shamil and the other brothers of ours became Shaheeds (insha Allah) according to Allah's (swt) will. The Supreme one has his own plan and decision. And about the special operation, Mujahideen will show how it should be carried out ... ", - the representative of Military Council of State Defense Council Majlisul Shura of CRI stated.

There is Two Sides to Every Story.

And what really happened I guess we will never find out;

Because NONE of us was THERE!

Originally posted by optimus fett
news.bbc.co.uk...

the chechen warlord 'basayev' has been killed,

this is the nutter that killed many women and children in the shocking scenes displayed on tv in 2004 after taking a school hostage..

thank god, another turd out of the way.

what school? is it the school in russia that got blown up?(i think it was russia, im sorry i cant remember but if it is or not please tell me)

Well, it really seems he got killed this time, since the rebels confirmed it. Only speculation is how, was it an accident or not

Originally posted by trIckz_R_fO_kIdz
The whole point was to get the world to listen,

And what? Show the world "hey I'm just as rotten and depraved as my foe is, support me instead of the big Russian bear". I'm sorry but i'm glad he got what he had coming. Even if he had a bad life he made it worse for even more.

Originally posted by Souljah
Awesome Man! You work for Russian Army? Well I guess it is so easy today to label just about any Muslim country a "Taliban-Terrorist Regime", since then you will have the full support of USA and the G.W.Bush for pursuing the "Evildoers".

And you must work for the International Islamic Society of Upholding the Righteousness of Mujahedeen. I got my opinions just like you do, and that does not mean that I am somebody's propaganda tool. I do not feel any antipathy towards Muslims, their culture, or their people. I support many Islamic countires and their attempts to surivive in a world globalized by America in its search for energy resources. I do not support the war in Iraq, nor did I support the Russian war in Afganistan. However I also do not support killing of innocent civilians no matter what the cause. You however seem to support anything that Muslims do anywhere in the world.

Originally posted by Souljah
Why don't you go back in History and tell us what Peter the "Great" did to the Chechen People, when he Annexed Chechnya after a Brutal and Bloody Massacres of these People, which the Russians called BANDITI, clearly showing the Level of Respect. How does president Putin call them today?

That was Russian expansionism during its empire days. Every empire in history expanded through violence and almost any large nation today can be accussed of commiting crimes in the past. US expanded killing Indians. Europe colonized the world killing people everywhere. Muslims invaded their neighbors in Middle East. China duked it out with everyone in site. History is full of violence, and nearly all cultures and peoples suffered because of someone else. We should focus on the now, and not on what happened hundreds of years ago and who killed who.

In 19th and 20th centuries Chechnya was part of the Russian state- that is a fact. Borders were drawn long before USSR. So why should Chechnya get independence all of the sudden after USSR got disolved. They only used the opportunity because Russia appeared weak.

Originally posted by Souljah
Are you a Russian?

Because for Russians always look at People of Caucasus as Bandits, and even the Russian Goverment, does

Yes yes- lets start stereotyping Russians now. Yes there are some racial issues in Russia (as in almost any Western nation), and idiot skinhead and equally idiot racist politicians. But by far not all Russians are biased against people of Caucasus. I spend 1/3 of my life in Krasnodar, which is in Caucasus, and have many relatives and friends from there. I have known 3 Chechens personally, all of whom are great and friendly people. In no way do I view any ethnicities in Russia (or anywhere else) as being inclined towards crime or violence. In fact regular Chechens ARE NOT VIEWED AS BANDITS in Russia. The most common view of them is that they are traders and resellers of food produce from the South in large Russian cities.

However the idiots that started the push for independence through violence are nothing short of bandits. I agree with peaceful means to try and gain independence, and I believe that if Chechens tried it they would have succeeded (much like Eastern European countries have like Poland and the Baltics). But there were those that called for immediate violence to achieve independence as soon as possible.

As I said how would US react if suddenly one of the states decided to become a sovereign nation. Or if part of Iran or Egypt or Turkey decided to call its independence without talking it over with their country first.



And yes part of the war was about oil pipelines as I mentioned somewhere earlier. Chechnya was a vital region for Russia, and of course Russia did not want to lose it. Would Turkey want to lose Dardanelle Strait, or would US want to lose Texas? The pipeline was in part in the way of their independence, but its wasn't just that. Chechnya is a really small country and if Russia wanted to it would have laid the pipeline around Chechnya or made an agreement. But 1991-1995 certainly wasn't the time for it. Chechens should have waited with their independence ambitions. But a few of their leaders turned to violence instead.

[edit on 11-7-2006 by maloy]

Originally posted by pavil

Originally posted by trIckz_R_fO_kIdz
The whole point was to get the world to listen,

And what? Show the world "hey I'm just as rotten and depraved as my foe is, support me instead of the big Russian bear". I'm sorry but i'm glad he got what he had coming. Even if he had a bad life he made it worse for even more.

Did you even read anything else that I posted, seems you lack knowledge in the field of terror tactics. We already discussed this anyways. Go read a book on the Delta Force or something to get started on anti terror, and why terrorist do what they do.

Originally posted by iqonx
It's easy to get caught in this WOT rubbish and really start to belive people are fighting becuase they hate freedom when in fact they are only fighting for the nations freedom and Chechnya is one of those countries that is fighting for there freedom.

Do you know how many people and ethnicities in the world want independence (freedom as you call it)? Far far more than there are nations in existance today. If we suddenly start giving out independences left and right, the whole world would be in chaos. First lets say everyone who wants independence gets their independent state through majority agreement. However then some minority in that independent state decides that they want independence too. So they too declare independence. And then some minority within that small state declares its independence..... and so it goes untill ever household is an independent state, with no organized economy or mean to defend itself.

There is humanistic approach- let everyone who wants it have independence. And then there is the realist approach. Nations were created for a reason, just like empires, kingdoms, feudalisms, and so on. They were meant to stay together, decide and sort its problems together, and survive together even if someone doesn't approve of whats going on. You cannot simply start dividing a nation (like happened in Russia after fall of USSR), carving out generous pieces for yourself. A nation must remain a nation, and must fight to keep itseld together. Still, this should be done with agreement of the majority, and without allienating the minority.

Originally posted by iqonx
Also the person a few posts back who acted as if this had started in 1991 please stop pretending this happend in 1991 the war by russia against chechnyans has been going on for decades way before 1991 russia has been killing chechnyans civillians even before 1950's thre are also records going back hundreds of years for chechnya wanting freedom. Also lets not forget stalins mass deportation of Chechnyans where thousands and thousands of civillians died.

I never said history of Chechnya began in 1991. I simply said that is when Basaeyev's (whom the subject is about) and Dudayev's independence movement started, and traced it from there.

It is a fact, which as a Russian I of course know- that many people suffered under both the Russian empire and the Soviet Union. Not just Chechens, but nearly all ethnicities in Russia suffered. When Chechnya was invaded by the Russian empire, hundreds of years ago- yes alot of people were killed- but all empires invaded and killed others. I do not believe Chechens were targeted and killed systematically before 1943. Yes some were killed probably for helping the anti-communist army during the Civil War, but what do you expect.

Yes there is a page in history of USSR when alot of Chechens were displaced and some were killed after WWII. They facilitated and didn't interfere with German invasion of the Caucasus. But many people besides them from all over Russia died too under Stalin (for similar or even more idiotic reasons). Should all of their decendents get independence. If yes, then I would like to see how Russia could be carved into 2,000 sovereign nations without any conflicts between them.
-Stalin was an *sshole. That is pretty much established. So was Mussolini, and Hitler, and Franco, and Attaturk. They all killed countless numbers of people in their "empires". There is not exuse for that. But as I said, Chechens were not much worse off than everyone else in Russia- so why do they get the preferential treatments. All of Russia suffered- why doesn't all of Russia get your support.


After Stalin however the crimes (and yes I consider them crimes) against Chechens stopped for the most part. Under Krustchev, Chechens were allowed to return to their old land. In the 1960's through the 70's Chechnya was actually quite well off (my relatives worked there for about a decade). It had parks, museums, universities, theaters, industries, even regional cultural schools in keeping with their ancient traditions. Chechnya was actually one of the better-off regions of Russia. Of course in the late 80's and early 90's things became hard again- but again it was the same throughout Russia. And then Chechen separatists used the dissolve of USSR as an opportunity to seek independance. But as I said before some of them started this through violence.



So don't lecture on how sad the Chechen story is, and how much the poor Chechens suffered in history. History was harsh for all of Russia, and nearly all of regular (not elite) Russians suffered. Chechens are just part of the larger story of Russian people. So why shouldn't they stay in the Union with people together with whom they stayed for hundreds of years.

If Basayev didn't target Russian civilians (in fact in many cases they were poor people in impoversihed areas), I would have some respect for him. I wouldn't mind even if he targeted Kremlim, some KGB outpost, or some Russian corrupt politicians or oligarchs (most the ones who started the war in Chechnya)- these individuals would have deserved it. But he target poor people, not unlike Chechens- who were also harshly treated throughout history.

[edit on 11-7-2006 by maloy]

Maloy mostly everything you say is true but you forgot, that the 2nd attack on chechnya was ignited by a apartment bombing in russia in 2000, which the Russians blamed on a sect or something in Chechnya, but they used this as a excuse *similar to 9/11 with Iraq* to launch a massive attack on the Chechnyan government, it also included the all so common tratiorist pigs who in the first place led chechnya to the fun house its in atm. Boris Berezovsky (who is accused of fraud and political corruption by the Russian police and lives in exile) and U.S. Senator John McCain have suggested that the FSB (a Russian intelligence service) staged the bombings to provide a pretext for an invasion of Chechnya.

I say its all Bull#, each side fighting eachother is fighting a so called good cause, when in fact its the money grapping son of ****** who need to fuel russias future war machine, of course the Cold war isnt over yet, it never was, it just went into a coma and its just waking up again, Russia's been making some crazy stuff lately, missles that are far supperour then that of which the U.S. has, Tanks, body army glass with klevar suits or whatever.etc

I am not Christian or Religous, but I say its the Devils old trick in getting people to fight each other while the real evil just saps off the both sides loses. Really its all just a big fat joke, all the children that died was just a false pretext in the first place, everyone that died in fact in this entire conflict was jsut for some bull# they never knew about. Of course Evil presist when good men do nothing, seems to be true on both ends of the deal.

Plus Russia got there asses handed to them more then once, something else is fueling this war, that is more then just in public view, could just be the natural resources, but loosing many many more men then the chechnyan forces, its like someone is behind the thing here that was pushing this conflict.

All I can say now is we stop pussy footing around and stand up to the real tyranny.

Originally posted by trIckz_R_fO_kIdz
Maloy mostly everything you say is true but you forgot, that the 2nd attack on chechnya was ignited by a apartment bombing in russia in 2000, which the Russians blamed on a sect or something in Chechnya, but they used this as a excuse *similar to 9/11 with Iraq* to launch a massive attack on the Chechnyan government, it also included the all so common tratiorist pigs who in the first place led chechnya to the fun house its in atm. Boris Berezovsky (who is accused of fraud and political corruption by the Russian police and lives in exile) and U.S. Senator John McCain have suggested that the FSB (a Russian intelligence service) staged the bombings to provide a pretext for an invasion of Chechnya.

Yes the events surrounding the bombing you are talking about are shady. I have saw a documentary about the suggested FSB involvements, and have my own opinions on it, which are far too long to go into detail about- ultimately I do not see much concrete proof about FSB, and it will likely stay as much a theory as 9/11. Berezovsky is simly a member of opposition to Putin, and will always sing to the same tune. Few in US understand that he is nothing but a dirty beuracrtic oligarch who became rich at the expense of regular Russians, much like the rest of them.

The Second War was launched for many reasons, some of which aren't very easy for Russia to admit. Part was to strengthen support for Putin near the elections. Part was to put more money into some shady oligarchs' and politicians' pockets. but part was also because Chechnian separatists decided to push their "independence" ideals onto their neighbors (Dagestan and Ingushetia). I must also add that these neighbors weren't too thrilled about armed Chechens fueling rising conflicts there, nor did they want to become another Chechnya. In fact local villages in Dagestan and Ingushetia actually fought with Chechen guerillas. But soon after the Second War started. In fact before that second (ultimately successful for Russia) wat, several other Russian atonomous republics started considering desserting the Federation, but then decided against it. Both wars are very complex to explain in a single paragraph, and I read almost every possible theory on them.

Originally posted by trIckz_R_fO_kIdz
I say its all Bull#, each side fighting eachother is fighting a so called good cause, when in fact its the money grapping son of ****** who need to fuel russias future war machine, of course the Cold war isnt over yet, it never was, it just went into a coma and its just waking up again, Russia's been making some crazy stuff lately, missles that are far supperour then that of which the U.S. has, Tanks, body army glass with klevar suits or whatever.etc

Yes you are absolutely right about this. The Cold War revival is inevitable in the near future (with China and India being main players too). Russia is determined not to show its weakness. Us is also adding fuel to the fire with its globalizing WOT and the idea of sending orbiting nukes to space. No large nations will ever be guilt free. They are all run by corruption, and the rich who are doing everything possible to exploit the poor. But it is still no exuse for some members of some rebelion (Basayev in this case) to revenge what happened to them by killing other innocent people, who have nothing to do with Russia's war. You can fight a wrong act with another wrong act, but you will end up like this idiot. Dead in a ditch with no one in the world giving a sh*t.

Originally posted by trIckz_R_fO_kIdz
Plus Russia got there asses handed to them more then once, something else is fueling this war, that is more then just in public view, could just be the natural resources, but loosing many many more men then the chechnyan forces, its like someone is behind the thing here that was pushing this conflict.

All I can say now is we stop pussy footing around and stand up to the real tyranny.

What is fueling this war, is the same thing that is fueling much of conflict around the world (like Iraq and Palestine). It is people with money and power, who want more money and power. The poor on both sides continue to get screwed. It will b like this forever. Public opinion is almost never the cause of this- it is the result of propaganda by those in interested in the conflict. Sure Russia could have let Chechnya go. But then some oligarch on one side, and some wanna-be extremist mujahadeen on the other wouldn't have extra millions of dollars and the power they have as the result of the conflict.

Russian oligarchs see business in the war. Chechen mujahadeen also see money in the continuing conflict. They are both fueling it, and neither side really wants peace and quite in the region. I don't know if you mean Russia by tyranny, but Russia isn't the only one to blame here. Money and power is to blame, much like in any recent war. I know for sure that some people on BOTH SIDES want this conflict to go on. Not the regular civilians- no. This is no longer about just independence and the Federation. A simple strife became a very complex conflict, much like in Yugoslavia, Palestine, and in many other places. One thing I know, is that it is a good thing when idiots like Basayev perish. I wouldn't mind a few Russian oligarchs and politicians leaving the scene as well to be fair.


[edit on 12-7-2006 by maloy]

[edit on 12-7-2006 by maloy]

Originally posted by maloy
And you must work for the International Islamic Society of Upholding the Righteousness of Mujahedeen. I got my opinions just like you do, and that does not mean that I am somebody's propaganda tool. I do not feel any antipathy towards Muslims, their culture, or their people. I support many Islamic countires and their attempts to surivive in a world globalized by America in its search for energy resources. I do not support the war in Iraq, nor did I support the Russian war in Afganistan. However I also do not support killing of innocent civilians no matter what the cause. You however seem to support anything that Muslims do anywhere in the world.

Well ofcourse everybody has an opinion - you know what they say; opinions are like a-holes, everybody has one and they all stink. Jokes aside - you say you do not support the killing of innocent civilans; how is that possible if you are all out for Chechen attack by Russia? 40.000 children were killed in the process of two wars and I guess you do not have a problem with that. I do not support "anything that Muslims do anywhere in the World" as you claim - I am merly saying that I highly doubt that people would stand up and start a fight just out of boredom and out of pure bloodthirst to kill big numbers of western crusaders. Ask yourself in how many countries there is a Western armed force and in how many countries there are Muslim armed forces. If you would know your history well, you would find out, that NO Muslim country is currently occupying a western country - actually most of the problematic one have an occupation army present, which has triggered a resistance. Occupation gives birth to a resistance. Plain and simple.

That was Russian expansionism during its empire days. Every empire in history expanded through violence and almost any large nation today can be accussed of commiting crimes in the past. US expanded killing Indians. Europe colonized the world killing people everywhere. Muslims invaded their neighbors in Middle East. China duked it out with everyone in site. History is full of violence, and nearly all cultures and peoples suffered because of someone else. We should focus on the now, and not on what happened hundreds of years ago and who killed who.

Well you can focus on NOW, but the Chechen people will always rememebr what Peter the Great did to them and how he delt with the "Chechen Problem". And they will also always remember how Stalin delt with them and how he got rid of the "Chechen Problem" and they will also Always remember how Yeltsin delt with them and how he tried to remove the "Chechen Problem". Every Empire has its bloody legacy left in their former colonies and it is no news, that the colonies are not really big fans of the countries, which used to own them.

In 19th and 20th centuries Chechnya was part of the Russian state- that is a fact. Borders were drawn long before USSR. So why should Chechnya get independence all of the sudden after USSR got disolved. They only used the opportunity because Russia appeared weak.

Why should Ukraine get independance?
Why should Belorussia get independance?
Why is Chechnya any different from those countries?
Everybody got their piece of land, and I am sure that Chechens always wanted to be kings in their homeland since the dawn of time.

Yes yes- lets start stereotyping Russians now. Yes there are some racial issues in Russia (as in almost any Western nation), and idiot skinhead and equally idiot racist politicians. But by far not all Russians are biased against people of Caucasus. I spend 1/3 of my life in Krasnodar, which is in Caucasus, and have many relatives and friends from there. I have known 3 Chechens personally, all of whom are great and friendly people. In no way do I view any ethnicities in Russia (or anywhere else) as being inclined towards crime or violence. In fact regular Chechens ARE NOT VIEWED AS BANDITS in Russia. The most common view of them is that they are traders and resellers of food produce from the South in large Russian cities.

Well it really does not matter how you or a few Russians think of the Chechen people - it matters how the President thinks about them, and I am sure that completly and utterly drunk Yeltsin used that word and I am more then sure that president Putin also used that word and I am More then sure, that the soldiers, who were sent down to Chechnya also loved to use that term. This term has been used for a long, Long time, probably since the times of Peter the Great, who treated them like this also.

However the idiots that started the push for independence through violence are nothing short of bandits. I agree with peaceful means to try and gain independence, and I believe that if Chechens tried it they would have succeeded (much like Eastern European countries have like Poland and the Baltics). But there were those that called for immediate violence to achieve independence as soon as possible.

The problem here is that Chechnya was really NEVER a part of Russia in their eyes and was Always conquered by Force and what you Get by Force you must Keep by Force. Apparently the only language that Russian Goverment knows is the Language of Violence when talking to Chechens. What they want, they got.

As I said how would US react if suddenly one of the states decided to become a sovereign nation. Or if part of Iran or Egypt or Turkey decided to call its independence without talking it over with their country first.

I am from Slovenia and we Declared Independance without talking to Our former country first.

And yes part of the war was about oil pipelines as I mentioned somewhere earlier. Chechnya was a vital region for Russia, and of course Russia did not want to lose it. Would Turkey want to lose Dardanelle Strait, or would US want to lose Texas? The pipeline was in part in the way of their independence, but its wasn't just that. Chechnya is a really small country and if Russia wanted to it would have laid the pipeline around Chechnya or made an agreement. But 1991-1995 certainly wasn't the time for it. Chechens should have waited with their independence ambitions. But a few of their leaders turned to violence instead.

So I guess it is "just" the Chechen Leaders who are responsible for Both Chechen Wars right? Not the Russian completly drunk president, who was heavily influenced by bloodthirsty Amry Generals, who just wished to show ONE country that separated from the Soviet Union, that Russia is still a Big Bear, who should be Feared? It is not, that Russians wanted to make an example to show to other countries, not to repeat Chechen actions, because the consequences will be the same. Again you are playing the good old trick, to portray Russia as the "Poor Victim" - but how can you be the Victim and the OCCUPYING Army at the same time? That does not go togather very well.

Originally posted by Souljah
Jokes aside - you say you do not support the killing of innocent civilans; how is that possible if you are all out for Chechen attack by Russia? 40.000 children were killed in the process of two wars and I guess you do not have a problem with that.

As I said, I did not support what Russia did in Chechnya in the 90's (especially under Yeltsin). I support efforts to try and keep the country together, but I do not support the way Russia went about doing this- bombings and total war. Serious offenses against civilians were comitted by Russians. It the fault of that idiot Yeltsin and a bunch of moronic commanders, who are no longer in charge. Putin for the most part corrected these tactics however. Instead of bombing and assaulting civilians, he and general Lebed used new tactics to get the locals to support them. Now Putin and Kadyrov are rebuilding Grozny, and most of the violence is behind- but should not be forgoten. I do not support everything Putin does, but at least under him the mass assaults on civilians stopped. Ramzan Kadyrov on the other hand I do not support, even though he is on Moscow's side. He is the one terrorizing the local population now, and under him there will be no complete peace for Chechnya.

However all of this is not an exuse to kill hundreds of innocent Ossetians, Dagestanis, Ingush, or Russians.

Originally posted by Souljah
If you would know your history well, you would find out, that NO Muslim country is currently occupying a western country - actually most of the problematic one have an occupation army present, which has triggered a resistance. Occupation gives birth to a resistance. Plain and simple.

Yes, that is true. But Muslim invasions created a whole load of problems for centuries to come. Yugoslavia affair can be blamed on Turkey and the Ottoman empire. Many parts of current day Turkey in fact want to separate but are being violently repressed. Look at genocide of Armenians and Kurds. Similar goes for other Muslim nations I am sure. Furthermore Muslim expansion is encountering problems in other parts of the World like Africa and South Asia.

But I do agree that most problems in the world today are direct results from centuries of Western colonization. Europe screwed the world over for hundreds of years, and now its facing the consequences. US is screwing the world now, and the worst consequences are yet to come. Unlike Europe and US though, Russia didn't colonize the world away from its borders. It only expaned and colonized nations bordering it. Sure it created many problems, but hardships like WWII made most people forget about past differences. Most of people in Russian Federation now very much want to remain part of Russia.

Originally posted by Souljah
Why should Ukraine get independance?
Why should Belorussia get independance?
Why is Chechnya any different from those countries?
Everybody got their piece of land, and I am sure that Chechens always wanted to be kings in their homeland since the dawn of time.

Who said they should? Belorussia mostly wants to remain a part of Russia. So does Crimea, and Transdniestarie, and even many Serbians want to be added to Russia. Ukraine was an independent, pretty powerful kingdom hundreds of years ago (Crimea shouldn't be a part of it however). Belorussia was always part of Russia. Much of separation after fall of USSR was uneeded and only happened because of intense nationalism partly sparked there by the West.

Originally posted by Souljah
The problem here is that Chechnya was really NEVER a part of Russia in their eyes and was Always conquered by Force and what you Get by Force you must Keep by Force. Apparently the only language that Russian Goverment knows is the Language of Violence when talking to Chechens. What they want, they got.

It is true that Chechens are very free minded people, that refuse to be influenced by anyone, whether its Georgia, Azerbaijan, the Ottomans, the Mongols, the Nazis or the Russians. The fact is that that region was constantly conquered by neighboring powers (some of which which I just mentions). If Russia didn't invade it, somebody else would have. A small region like Chechnya could not have stayed independent in those times, especially in the region where major Eurasian trade routes went through. Yeltsin did overly rely on violence and brute force. However I think Russia should have used other means to assure Chechens that they should stay in the Union. That is what Putin tried after the Seond War, mostly succesfully.

Originally posted by Souljah
I am from Slovenia and we Declared Independance without talking to Our former country first.

Russia and Yugoslavia should not be compared. Serbia and present day Balkan countries were constantly controlled by foreign powers in recent centuries (Austrians, Ottoman). the Serbia kingdom, or Yugoslavia for that matter were never together for long. Thus Slovenians and Croats do not feel as they were a part of Yugoslavia and did not want to be in union with Serbs. Russia however stayed together for many centuries, and together, all of the ethnicities of Russia fought off many invaders (Mongols, Turks, French, Polish, Germans). They succeeded, because they fought together, and stayed together.


I can see why you support so called freedom fighters throughout the world (Slovenia wanted independence for a long time). However with Chechnya you have to remember there was a very large minority there that wanted to stay with Russia. Dudayev however killed many members of the opposition within Chechnya. When the opposition tried to hold a regional referendum about independence or joining Russia, Dudayev's forces fired on the place where the voting was held, killing many Chechens. Dudayev was far from Ghandi or Dalai lama. He was very impatient, prone to excessive violence, and unyeilding in any way. Of course Basayev was even worse. Seeing that Chechens would be unable to hold off the Russians, he was the one advocating dirty tactics of terrorizing Russian civilians. Infact many people who died because of his terrorist attacks were not even ethnic Russians. Beslan was in Ossetia, where people are (or rather were) more like Chechens in their culture and attitude towards Russia, than Russians.

[edit on 12-7-2006 by maloy]

Originally posted by Souljah
So I guess it is "just" the Chechen Leaders who are responsible for Both Chechen Wars right? Not the Russian completly drunk president, who was heavily influenced by bloodthirsty Amry Generals, who just wished to show ONE country that separated from the Soviet Union, that Russia is still a Big Bear, who should be Feared? It is not, that Russians wanted to make an example to show to other countries, not to repeat Chechen actions, because the consequences will be the same. Again you are playing the good old trick, to portray Russia as the "Poor Victim" - but how can you be the Victim and the OCCUPYING Army at the same time? That does not go togather very well.

If you read my previous posts, you would have seen that I partly blame Russia for the war. But Chechnya is also to blame. Remember that the truth is always in between.