Four Russian diplomats killed in Iraq

It seems that all four Russian diplomats/embasy workers that were taken hostages last week, were killed (shot/beheaded and filmed).

www.aljazeera.com...
www.kommersant.com...


What do you think, how will Russia react?

Originally posted by Duby78
It seems that all four Russian diplomats/embasy workers that were taken hostages last week, were killed (shot/beheaded and filmed).

www.aljazeera.com...
www.kommersant.com...


What do you think, how will Russia react?

I think they will do nothing because the russians have got a too tight connection to the Arabians.

The kidnappers demanded for a Russian withdrawal from Chezenya, like 4 diplomats would make the difference when 300 children didn't. I assume Russia might stop stalling US actions against iran (not in security council, but i'n 2 way talks that Russia and USA are most likely having about the situation)

Chezen rebels have stated that they gad nothing to do with this.

Boldest thing Russia might do is to covertly sent few FSB operators to Iraq with orders to hunt these terrorists down (most likely with US co-operation)

Russia will do nothing. It has double sided relations with Middle East. On one side all the extremists and mujahedeens are against Russia because it did not allow the creation of a Kalifat in Chechnya. On the other hand nations such as Syria, Iran, and Palestian want good relations with Russia to offset their potential enemy- US.

The incident where four embassy staff were killed shows just how idiotic and unorganized Al Quida (or whoever else is in charge of Jihading everything there) has become. They kill anyone they get thier hands on- peace wokers, civilians, diplomats, soldiers, children, each others, everyone and anyone who disagrees with them. It seems their main goal now is to create general chaos and anarchy.

Well it looks like they will do something about it.

Russian news link

CX.

Those bloody terrorist; they have no sense of self discipline do they?
Russia was an anti war country. I remember very clearly Putin publicly asking Tony Blair about where the WMD's where a few months after the war.
Yet because of something going on in Europe these terrorist feel they are so desperate, so weak that they have no choice but to attack Russia wherever they go in this worldly place. This is a shame because even when Russia is helping their Arab-Muslim brothers they cannot find it in themselves to call a truce within just this part of the worlds many kilometres (as according to them everywhere else Russians can still be hunted).
The dumbest thing is that Russia does not negotiate with terrorists. The diplomats where always going to be killed unless someone could quickly pump led into their terrorist captives face.

I totally approve of Russia's policy; no matter how many children, woman or even babies a terrorist may threaten to kill the day we negotiate with them becomes the day we should all be ashamed of our country, not just for giving in but for falling down to their level by doing so. After all that is partly why terrorists take people hostage in the first place; and so yes I'm glad Russia doesn’t recognise them for them doing it.

Yes, it seems Russia wil send its special service to Iraq, to "find and destroy the killers of four Russian diplomat".

External link

Alright, few points to make:

1. Russia does not consider arabs or muslims anything but customers, Liberal. Ever. That's why they shelled Grozny so bad they don't have one brick on top of another.

2. Russia WILL do something, as the news links have specified. In addition, I'm guessing there will be some reprecussions for the Chechens as well.

3. Not only will Russia do things, it will in all odds do very bad things. The Russian Federation has shown absolutely no regard for civilians- its own or otherwise. Expect a lot of bodies appearing one morning.

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx
1. Russia does not consider arabs or muslims anything but customers, Liberal. Ever. That's why they shelled Grozny so bad they don't have one brick on top of another.

Yes lots of Arabs are Russia's customers. However Russia does have relations with several Arab states that are long term and pretty good. Syria and Egypt have always maintained very good ties with Russia. There is a lot of muslims living in Russia, many Muslim autonomous republics in the Russian Federation, and many ex-Soviet states are Muslim. It has long had influence in the Muslim world (relations starting in the 18th century with what is current Iran, Iraq, and Afganistan). I'd say Russian relations with Middle East are more than simple customers and business.

They shelled Grozny not because they hate Arabs. You have to remember that Chechnyans are Russians, were Russian for hundreds of years, and vast majority wish to remain Russians. They waged war against the rebels, unfortunately killing many civilians in the process. It is a terrible mistake and should have never happened. But US also killed many civilians in Iraq and elsewhere. Russia wanted to win a quick war, but Yeltsin and the bureaucrats messsed it up and Putin was forced to fix it, which he did.

Originally posted by DeusEx
2. Russia WILL do something, as the news links have specified. In addition, I'm guessing there will be some reprecussions for the Chechens as well.

3. Not only will Russia do things, it will in all odds do very bad things. The Russian Federation has shown absolutely no regard for civilians- its own or otherwise. Expect a lot of bodies appearing one morning.

Russia will only limit itself to retaliation to those responsible. It has extensive FSB network all over Middle East and I am sure it will find them. Reprecussions for Chechen guerillas have been happening for many years, and there is very little left of them, and most that are are Arab insurgents not locals. Even the local population has turned against them, and is turning them in. They are no longer fighting for independence, but for money that comes from Muslim funds and kidnappings.

There will be no reprecussions for Chechen civilians. Why would there. They are Russian citizens and they have long ago stopped rebelling. When has Russia shown no regard for its civilians under Putin? It has never specifically targeted civilians. Yes many died on both sides in the Chechnyan wars, but thats war. After the war Russia protects all of its civilians, and the only ones it is targeting are armed rebels. Russian hostages died not because of lack of regard, but because of the hostage takers that would have killed them either way. Russia did its best to prevent as many deaths as possible.

Honestly where do you get this stuff? CNN? FOX? You talk about it as if you have been there. Well I have, and people I know have, and I will make a point to disagree with your biased comments. No regard for civilians? This is not a bunch of communist hardliners anymore, its a democratizing society (slowly but surely-progress is not always quick). Russia has more regard for all of its people now than it ever had. Chechnya is quickly being rebuilt. People once again can find work and feel safe. Unlike America that goes on a campaign to bomb half the world into oblivion after 9/11, Russia didn't start any wars because of its terrorist attacks, and it had suffered alot of them recently. It did not target innocent people after Beslan attack.

Maloy, let me remind you about two very famous incidents: Beslan and the Moscow Theatre. In both cases, there was either a high degree of incompetence amongst the Russian forces (which I HIGHLY doubt was the case), or little regard for human life. The fact that the government refused to disclose the nature of the gas after the attack, leading to at least one more death, seems to back up my statement. These were Russian citizens. I mean, when you look at that, do you really think they're gonna care about Iraqi citizens?

As for my comments regarding Chechnya, it is well-known that various terrorist groups have connections to seperatist factions there, and even mention them in propaganda videos. I am aware that the Chechens are not Arabs, however, I still believe there will be reprecussions for various factions' support of the Iraqi terrorists, especially those providing intelligence, supplies, and manpower. It will be ten for one, I hope. And I think canny ol' Putin would agree with me.

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx
Maloy, let me remind you about two very famous incidents: Beslan and the Moscow Theatre. In both cases, there was either a high degree of incompetence amongst the Russian forces (which I HIGHLY doubt was the case), or little regard for human life. The fact that the government refused to disclose the nature of the gas after the attack, leading to at least one more death, seems to back up my statement. These were Russian citizens. I mean, when you look at that, do you really think they're gonna care about Iraqi citizens?

As for my comments regarding Chechnya, it is well-known that various terrorist groups have connections to seperatist factions there, and even mention them in propaganda videos. I am aware that the Chechens are not Arabs, however, I still believe there will be reprecussions for various factions' support of the Iraqi terrorists, especially those providing intelligence, supplies, and manpower. It will be ten for one, I hope. And I think canny ol' Putin would agree with me.
DE

Under Putin a heavy PR campaign was carried out all over the Caucus including Chechnya to get the people to trust the Russians and to want to remain in the Federation. After that thankfully civilians were no longer harmed and were arther protected by the Russian troops. People started trusting Russians and turned on the rebels. After that russia is careful to keep the people on their side. So far with success. They are rebuilding homes for local population and trying to start the exonomy there again. Still a far way to go, but much better than it was under Yeltsin. I admit Russians did some terrible things there in the 90's and most of that is the fault of several greedy beraucrats and generals who are no longer in power or command.

What happened in Beslan and Nordost Theater (as well as several other lesser known hostage takings) was a very very tough situation. Imagine a building wired with explosives to create a huge empty crater in the ground, and dozens of martyr terrorists each holding detonators and ak's. We are not taking 3 or 4 guys here. We are taking about an army of rebels very well armed and trained. The Russians have a policy of no negotiation to discourage these events. It is a miracle many people survived both of these events. i would want to see how America would get out of situation like this (but God forbid such event ever happen again to anyone- especially children).

In Nordost Special Forces group infiltrated the theater and used a secret gas agent. Unfortunately the doctors and police were not notified of this (if they were the whole operation could have been compromised), and did not know how to bring some people back into consiousness. Yes it was a mistake, and much was learned. But compared to how many could have died, it is miraculous so many survived. Ask anybody who survived about it and you will get the same answer. Also blame should be not on the Russians, but on the criminals who carried this act out.

In Beslan, Russia was readying its special forces when the killing started. Most Americans still do not know how the events happened. The rebels started shooting by mistake when they saw Russians comming to carry off the dead and wounded. Then some idiot hostage taker blew up first explosives and everything went to chaos from there. Russians did not get a chance to act.

You also have to remember that all odds and time was against Russians.

As for Russia not caring about human life- I suggest you visit a country and make a few friends there. You might be surprised how alike Russians and Americans are alike in that both try to enjoy life and value life to its fullest. It is a damn foolish thing to say that some *put race/religion/nationality here* do not value or have regard for human life. Most people everywhere care for the well being of those around them- even in the worst ****holes in the world.

[edit on 28-6-2006 by maloy]

Nordost was a screwup in a sense that the dosage and distribution of the gas was done badly. Otherwise it went just as well as any assaults by western Specops.

In Beslan, just as maloy said, the fighting started way too early, Russians were still preparing for a "possible" assault and had to improvise their way in. In that regard it went very well.

Chezen rebels have said they will stop all attacks against civilians and they will only attack Russian Army and Police, so i doubt that this will bring any sanctions to them (they had nothing to do with this, afterall chezens aren't this stupid )

Originally posted by northwolf
Chezen rebels have said they will stop all attacks against civilians and they will only attack Russian Army and Police

That would be a good way to gain better disposition towards themselves from the rest of the world- after all they lost all dignity and goodwill after Beslan. Where exactly did you hear these news?

However the Chechnyan rebels are not a single organized group now. They are split into many factions, each with its own warlord, some of whom are warring with each other. Also there are few actual rebels (fighters for independence) left. Most are opportunistic criminal warlords who are in it for the money - look up some info on Barayev and his millions of dollars gained from kidnappings.

www.diacritica.com...

They either get paid by Radical Islamic organizations, or from kidnappings, and they are not interested in stopping the conflict. In fact they want to create more chaos by spreading it into neighboring republics, like with Beslan attack. This is why I doubt a resolution for Chechnya is in sight for now, sadly. These warlords were created by the war, and even though the war is over there is still money to be made for them.

Maloy, I'm Canadian for one thing.

Secondly, I approve of Russian badassery. I mean, kinda scary, but a definite thumbs up as long as its pointed at the bad guys. I did not mean to imply that ALL russians are terribly bloody-minded folks, just their soldiers. Call it...professional respect? Yeah, that's the stuff. But still, after the fact, the forces witholding the nature of the gas pissed me off.

Didn't mean to offend, Maloy.

I still say the Russian Forces will definitely lay a smackdown on the Chechen rebels, and that they'll make sure there's a path of dead terrorists from hell to breakfast by the time this is over.

DE

About Nordost hostage taking and gas- as I said it was very sensitive information. Chechnyan rebels certainly had someone on the outside giving them intel on whats going on. If suddenly a swarm of ambulances appeared, the hostage takers would have known a seige is on the way- part of the reason why buses were used. Second the terrorists already started killing people, and not much time was left to notify doctors about the gas that was to be used. And believe me, aftrewards many investigations, public and private, were launched to learn more about why so many died. Many politicians were blamed, many criticized. But the majority understood that the real blame lay on the terrorists.


But yes the Russian army (not the people in general) is rather harshly disciplined. They are taught not to let feeling get in the way of duty, and during war are allowed to use torture to demorolize opponents. New recruits are kicked around and are treated rather harshly to strengthen their army morale. Many, including Putin are now calling to restructure the military to be like that of US, but Russia has old and trusted military traditions of its own. Russian military is not a pleasant place (by comparison American military is boy scouts camp). I avoided being drafted, but my friends were not so lucky. No wonder soldiers are quick to resort to torture and have little concern for collateral damage. I don't know why you see this as a good thing but I don't.

I also do not understand why you think openning a can of whoop ass on Chechnyan civilians is justified. It is not. Under Putin Russia is doing the right thing by limiting revenge to those who really deserve it. The Russia you are thinking about- big bad bear crushing anyone in its way- is the Russia of the past. It will and it should punish the terrorists. It should even torture the hell out of them in every way possibly. But in my opinion its best to limit violence to those that are actually responsible for these attacks.

[edit on 29-6-2006 by maloy]

To paraphrase Orwell, "We sleep peaceably in our beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf."

If I'm going to have, or be one of those men, I'd like them to be the meanest, nastiest, roughest sumbitches that ever walked the earth.

As for the Chechen rebels...well, I have my suspicions. I do not consider them pacified by any stretch of the word, and they make for a local target to help crush terrorist support network. I'm not saying slaughter innocent civillians wholesale. I'm saying that the Chechen rebels are a lot more complicit with folks like Al-Quaida than the Russian government is willing to admit. Hell, a year or two ago, a Canadian citizen was killed by Russian forceswhen he went off to join in the fight with his 'Islamic brothers'. They caught him with an RPG-7 in hand, headed towards an FSB outpost.

Well, good ridance to bad trash on that part.

Back to what I was saying- these guys are still a menace, and I firmly believe that not everything is hunky-dory.

DE

Yes chezen rebels are a complicated bunch of loose alliances, but their new leader has said that they will not attack civilians. If he keeps his words, that's enough for me. They have the right to fight Russian army, just as Iraqi insurgents have the right to fight US army. But if you attack civilians you loose your "legitimacy"in my eyes.
This doesn't mean i like any of these islamist scumbags, but every nation has right do defend itself, against foreign or opressive rule. And Russians have terrorised and opressed chezens for 200 years.

Ps. Finland (my country) has allso had to earn it's independence from Russia with blood (luckily in our case 90% of the blood spilled was Russian, but that's just because we were better soldiers '39)

Yes Finland was a curious affair, and Russians got beat pretty bad in 1939. The Finns had very good troops capable of fighting in snowy terrain, and still do I believe. I also heard that the commander of Finland troops refused to go further into Russia (towards Leningrad) when Finland was retaking the lost territory, and limit to only taking what had been theirs. That was a pretty wise move by Finland, even though they did not get all of the territory back. In fact I lived for some time near Vyborg, and have seen lots of remanents from the Finnish war around the woods (trenches, metal fragments, bunkers). I kinda feel that the land should belong to the Finns, but at the same time I wouldn't be Russian if it has. lol

With Chechnya however, I wouldn't call their war for independence fully justified, nor fully unjustified. Before the war they had no reason to blame Russians for treating them badly. It was a pretty well-to-do region rich with oil and natural resources. Yeah they suffered under Stalin-but who hasn't. If they deserve their independence, then you might as well split Russia in 70 or so different independent Republics, and neither will be as prosperous or safe as the Federation as a whole. However I also see Dudayev and the original rebels (nearly all of whom are either dead or joined the Russian side now) as somewhat of a freedom fighter however. But his mistake was when he let Shamil Basayev and Khatab run the show. It was their idea to let the insurgents and radical Islamists (including Al Quida) come to fight, and to start attacking the civilian population. After Pervomayskaya the rebels quickly lost respect in my eyes, and Russia has esured its ultimate victory in Chechnya.

But as I said, it seems that most of the rebels are no longer freedom fighters. They are warlords profiting from chaos. Even if they don't attack civilians (which I doubt they will keep their word in doing) I do not think their cause is worth supporting any longer. Chechnya should accept that it is part of Russia- it lost the war. If we start giving back land to whom it belonged in the past it will be chaos in the world. Just accept that you live with someone you dont exactly like. After all Chechnyan civilians no longer have to fear Russian troops. Federal assaults on innocent civilian regions ended shortly after Putin came to power.

[edit on 29-6-2006 by maloy]

[edit on 29-6-2006 by maloy]

OT Would it be so bad not to be a Russian? I'm glad i was born 40km west from Vyborg (Viipuri).

I know that there are 70 or so repiblics like chezenya in Russia, but most of them don't want independece, and truthfully most couldn't cope alone. But i feel that i'm obliged to support those who do want to brake out.

And btw Chezen Opression wasn't Stalins idea, Tsars we're doing it long before.


ANd back to the original topic, I assume that Russia still has those foreign inteligence sleeper strike teams in most possible countries of operation. Including USA, Germany, China, Iran, Iraq even Finland... list goeas on. Actually i don't even assume, i know but i can't reveal sources...



BTW the Finnish CINC was Marshal Mannerheim and he refused to attack Leningrad and cut off the railway to Murmansk. If he would have agreed to German demands Russia could have collapsed or at very least war would have lasted a lot longer.

[edit on 29-6-2006 by northwolf]

Last thing I've heard, Russia willl reward information (that would lead to arrest or elimination of group responsible for the killings) with 10 million US$