Bush condemns disclosure of secret anti-terror program

Originally posted by esdad71
What is the point of your post?

Whats the point of my post?

Maybe you should take a few minutes to actually think about a REAL response.
the above line illustrates that you are either not paying attention or you are mocking me... either way I am finished with you on this topic

I have taken great time and care in answering everyones questions esdad71...too bad I cannot say the same for you.



BTW again to answer this "question"
MY point is you have no arguement
period!

have a good day, sir!

denythestatusquo

Just to answer your question...What I meant in that line about the press being in the middle... It wasnt a point of fact .. more like it "feels" that way sometimes..
In thew end the Media is at least somewhat controlled by our govt. and also by the big execs sitting on the boards. The white house and the press have always had a loveless relationship.

Remember when the press actually had some credibility? I know it seems like a long time gone now. But that was the basis for my previous statement. Not fact just an observation.

Funny how the words "Bush" and "Condemns" are use together

Are you finished because you cannot make a point? You created a post that states Bush condemns the disclosure of secret antoi-terror program. I agree with him and the anger of our government in the release of this information. what else is there to argue? It is not the what, it is the why.

Why would the NYT reveal the processes that our government takes in order to try to stop terror through the tracking of finances? a high circulation that day.

It is not for the good of the country.

Originally posted by esdad71
Why would the NYT reveal the processes that our government takes in order to try to stop terror through the tracking of finances?

After 9/11 Al quaida holdings were frozen or taken so that the government track money is not new. So NYT did not reveal anything new. Money to Israel and Mex is of course not tracked... The lobbyists have made sure of that.
Anyway terrorists don't use western banks... Doubt even swiss banks would take money from such groups...

I have no point?

My points are these. And this is as clear as its gonna get for you.


1.)the NYT did NOT reveal anything new.--- so you and the president have no arguement ... get it yet?

2.) this program is not just being used to track terrorists... it is being used to spy on EVERYONE in over 200 countries.... how thick can you get to miss this?

and 3.)your feeble arguement to stiffle the press sickens me!.

Time and time again you have failed to produce one specific siting of what the NYT said that was acutually compromising.. and why is that? simple, because there is NOTHING in the story that is compromising...


I have tried to remain polite in this discussion but you seem content to be rude at every given turn.
you return Half witted answers without recognizing nor answering a SINGLE direct question with any fact what-so-ever.

esada71---you have no arguement.
Not only have I countered every arguement you have put forth but you offer very little in the way of a counter point(other than abstract double speak)
you have lablled me an American hater(your first post). You have tried to make this a left/right stone throwing contest(this is not the politics room) and you have tried to insult my intelligence(with your comment about how I fail to understand why you didnt use periods in swift) You may think you are clever sneaking these little things in here and there... but I am not fooled by your trolling.
So again I say good day to you sir.. as this will be my last response...

1.)the NYT did NOT reveal anything new.--- so you and the president have no arguement ... get it yet?

The arguement is that this is an ongoing issue with the NYT and the revealing of sensitive projects. Are you so diluted that you feel that it is OK of this to occur? You still have not answered my question.

2.) this program is not just being used to track terrorists... it is being used to spy on EVERYONE in over 200 countries.... how thick can you get to miss this?

As I have already stated, it is pretty much common knowledge that large money transfers are monitored, such as depoists and withdrawls. This is done for may reasons including DEA, ATF and RICO investigations. It is bieng used to attempt to track the flow of money and create papaer trails to disrupt the flow of money to those who killed 3000 pople on 9/11. Do you get it yet?

and 3.)your feeble arguement to stiffle the press sickens me!

It is not an arguement to stifle the press, it is a simple matter of common sense. The only reason you find it feeble is that you cannot counter it.

I am far from a troll, and if you cannot accept a nice debate, sorry for your luck. You are lableing yourself an 'America hater', not me. My first post was not directed at anyone, it was an open question to a forum. You do not own these posts, and many people browse them looking for their oppurtunity to add their knowledge. It is common that the NYT is a left paper. They are notorious for attacking the adminstration and making it s personal issue is not a good thing for our country.

original quote by:esdad71
I am far from a troll, and if you cannot accept a nice debate, sorry for your luck.

ok im going to give you the benefit of the doubt. You say you are trying to have a nice debate, then fine. Maybe I just read into what you typed a little too much. I will withdraw the trolling comment. I apologize for losing my temper my last post. Maybe it was a breakdown in communication?

BUT

original quote by:esdad71
You are lableing yourself an 'America hater', not me. My first post was not directed at anyone, it was an open question to a forum

well to be perfectly honest... You did come in here on your first post and say(even in general) that:

original quote by:esdad71
you cannot see who is actually taking away your rights and making you hate your own country.

And:

original quote by:esdad71
The have made you hate your country.

of course you apologized for the confusion after that.. and I can understand that.
But can you understand Why(since I am on the opposite side of this debate; that I would take it as a comment to me as much as a comment to the general posters in this thread, of which I am one?) But I understand fully now your intention was to a ficticious "you" and not directly to anyone in this thread. But you still put it out there and you shouldve expected a response.
I accept my role of being overly sensitive to those statements.

original quote by:esdad71
You do not own these posts

well of course I dont... But as the Author of this particualr thread I feel I should help keep this thread on topic; if only to help make the MODS job a little easier for them.
AGAIn I apologize for any misunderstanding in this regard.

back to topic

original quote by:esdad71
The arguement is that this is an ongoing issue with the NYT and the revealing of sensitive projects. Are you so diluted that you feel that it is OK of this to occur? You still have not answered my question

I would NOT feel it is ok if the NYT had actually released anything that was actually compromising. But they speak of the braod use of the program... they do not give anything specific. No schematics; no addresses; no names; Nothing just a broad article. That even the white house has said that they have never denied from the beginning. What I was trying to get you to answer for me was:

Could you please site and post anything(from the article) that was Sensitive(specifics)
I honestly could NOT find anything.

To answer your second point:
I fully understand that Law enforcement needs to track financial movements of specific individuals; and that is fine as long as the procedures are followed... but tyhat does NOT give our govt the right to track EVERYONES financial movements.

original quote by:esdad71
It is not an arguement to stifle the press, it is a simple matter of common sense. The only reason you find it feeble is that you cannot counter it.

I was over zealous with this line aswell(forgive my overindulgence into my frustration) I am sure your intention is not to have the press silenced. I also understand your perspective pertaining to the need for the Media to be responsible about what they report. I personally felt that the NYT story did not cross any of those lines... and in fact helped bring to light ...again ... our govts abuse of power; even if it is nothing new, its still happening.

General Note:
Please read Ben Franklins quote in my sig.. and you will understand why I am so uncompromising on this particualr point. I cannot understand why, for the life of me, that we Americans(out of fear) are so willing to sacrifice our precious protections and rights. Are we so afraid to die protecting our freedoms that we surrender them so readily? I feel that in order to be truly righteous in our campaign to bring democracy to the world we would need to be true in action as well as in word. You cannot force democracy at the point of a gun(Iraq). Nor can you have a democracy when you suspend the Consitution; anymore than you can crive a car without gas.
I think the part that I am failing to accurately communicate is: We have a sworn duty to uphold and defend the Constitution-more than any party allegience. Especially in a time of war and even more especially in an UNENDING WAR OF IDEOLOGY...aka WOT. If this war has no end then when do our full Constitutional rights ever get restored? Do you see where I am going with this?

In the end My feelings are that the White house is doing this on purpose. They knew the times was going to publish this story for months now.... AGAIN(as they told the NYT to not print the NSA wiretap story for over a year). And tried AGAIN to stop them from printing it... not because iots secret.. becaause as you have already pointed out; Its common knowledge that the govt tracks all finacial transactions.Not to mention that SWIFT is anything but secret...aka they're home page. And since there is nothing detailed in the story as to the hows and whos and addresses and such.. they didnt reveal anything we didnt already know.

They are not hurting the country... they are hurting the current power structures plans for the advancment of PNAC. Thats what the NYT is hurting.

We have a long standing dislaike as a nation of secrecy... look what It did to germany. Go back to the bottom of the first page and read bubbabuddha's JFK quote.
It really hits home and is very relevant to this exact problem facing todays political structure. We can not become so secret that WE the PEOPLE, who are in the end the bosses(our officials are nothing more than stewards) are no longer able to make our govt accountable for their actions.

Thomas Jefferson once said "when a people fear the govt, it is called tyranny. When the govt fears the people; liberty"

We are at a cross roads.. the majority of Americans no longer trust the representative govt(on both sides). They are not enacting the will of the people.
Especially in this particular topic.
Furthermore if the President and the Vice president have no problems with us all having our banking records out in the open... then let them Post theirs up on the white house home page for all the world to see.... talk is cheap let them put up or shut up.

I apologize for our earlier misunderstandings esdad71 and I hope we can continue our "civilized" debate.

and that folks, is what ATS is about. Thank you for your post.

You see, when my son was born, I realized that I had to attempt to make a difference in the world that he would grow up in, because the world we are living in is controlled by something far greater than any one of us, but at the same time it is fueled by our own greed and the puppets that are controlled by big business.

Run for a local office, or even become President of the PTA or your homeowners association. Give it back now to the community as a whole, and maybe the next generation will not have to deal with the bipartisan radicalism that has held our country back since the end of the 1700's.

This administration can't keep up with it's lies and secrets, so let's take a swing at newspapers as a whole. A free press in a Fascist State cannot be tolerated. What else should we not have known about:
Abu Grahib ?
Haditha?
Depleted Uraniun?
Pat Tillmans actual demise?
Jessica Lynch's real story?

Poor liars weaving a poor web!

There is another thread about the NYT terrorism disclosure here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Since this is a duplicate, thread closed.