Bush condemns disclosure of secret anti-terror program

Originally posted by ANOK

Are you profiting from it?
Do you love money more than life?
Have you bought into the fear of terrorism?

No, I'm not profiting from the current WOT.

For you to question my materialistic status is quite odd as you've no idea in the slightest who I am.

I do not live in fear as I am well armed

However, I do believe there are those who wish to destroy democracy, not the U.S. mind you, but democracy....and the argument often put forth on this board is that it is the U.S. government which wishes to do so, and though I concur in time of war the constitution itself is vulnerable, that there is a precarious balance between freedom and security, I do not feel the U.S. government is the greatest threat. I do agree however that corruption abounds.

Then what is the threat you say? Well, one would have to subscribe to the belief there are those who wish to destroy the democratic governments of the world, if one does not subscribe to this belief then all argument is moot, however, if one does in fact have the idea that there just may be those who would seek to destroy democracy, then one can begin to ponder the most likely ways in which to do so.

Originally posted by TONE23

In a war of ideology; as is the WOT, it is of the upmost importance that we maintain our IDEALS. The moment we compromise our ideals, we have already lost the war of ideology.

And yes, as I have said on this board, I absolutely despise the burning of the United States Flag but will vehemently fight for your right to do so. I have yet not lost faith though in the Constitution, in the power of the U.S. branches of government, in the people of the United States, in freedom itself. I fully know and understand the New Hampshire State Motto

for bubbabuddha

original quote by:bubbabuddha
"The very word secrecy is repugnant in a free and open society and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret
oaths, and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of
excessive and unwarrented concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the
dangers which are cited to justify it. Even today there is little value in
opposing the threat of a closed society by imitating it's arbitrary
restrictions, even today there's little value in insuring the survival of
our nation if our traditions do not survive with it and there is very grave
danger that an annouced need for increase in security would be seized upon
by those anxious to expand it's meaning to the very limits of official
censorship and concealment that I do not intend to permit to the extent
that's in my control and no official of my administration, whether his rank
is high or low, civilian or military, should interpret my words here tonight
as an excuse to censor the news, to stifle dissent, to cover up our
mistakes, or to withhold from the press or the public, the facts they
deserve to know." John F. Kennedy

This quote about sums it up for me.

Although I have never seen this quote before; it warms my heart to know that I am not alone in my understanding of the value of holding our ideals as the highest priority; even at the risk of death.

for spacedoubt

Firstly space if you could read the above quote by President, John F Kennedy; it will illustrate the way I feel about this matter much more elequently and succinctly than I am able to articulate.

original quote by:spacedoubt
1. I agree that the WOT is about Ideologies.
But nowhere do I advocate compromising our own ideologies. I never would.
I too would rather die, than live under the thumb of a tyrant.
I just feel that Freedom of speech, includes the freedom to NOT speak, if one desires.
I think there is responsibilty that goes with this freedom.

Alright, now we are getting somewhere.

1a.)

. I agree that the WOT is about Ideologies.

Ok now how does censoring our press help our ideologies thrive? And remember that
nowhere in the article does the NYT divulge any schematics or any other detailed information(like I said I would be joining your side of this debate in a heartbeat if that was the case)

1b.)

original quote by:spacedoubt
But nowhere do I advocate compromising our own ideologies. I never would.

But is that not what you are in fact doing by condemning the NYT story? (from a First Amendment perspective)


1c.)

original quote by:spacedoubt
I too would rather die, than live under the thumb of a tyrant.

I am sorry I didnt mean to get all "preachy" but it happens. as I care very deeply for; and feel very passionate about, out our beloved Constitution. I never meant to question your loyalty and commitment.

1d.)

original quote by:spacedoubt
I just feel that Freedom of speech, includes the freedom to NOT speak, if one desires.
I think there is responsibilty that goes with this freedom.

I do agree.
But in this case I sincerely do not believe that the NYT divulged anything truly compromising. I feel they were responsible in how they told the story since they didnt give any schematical/detailed information.

The second question spacedoubt was:2.) How is the Govt.'s abuse of the Constitution Not more dangerous to our way of life than a terrorist? let me make this alittle clearer if I may since your answer was not in line with the question.

I say abuse, but more succinctly would be: pushing the boundaries of; the Constitution.
When the NSA story first broke in Dec of 2005. the NYT was originally told to sit on that story for a over a year by the White House. If you back track when the story was originally going to hit the shelves it would be ohhh I dont know right around election time 2004. This is manipulation of the media hard at work almost two years ago with this administration. Combined with the myriad of other mistakes/lies Iraq/Afghanistan, wiretaps, banktracking, PATRIOT ACT(outright disgrace to our constitution), Abu Grahib, GITMO, selling off our infrastructure to foreign investors,REAL ID ACT, and the lost goes on; you really have to have at least some degree of skepticism towards the motives of our current governmental body politick. Both Dems and Reps I hold in equal measure(just maing a point of equal responsibility since this is not a political matter)

So to rephrase my question:

How does our govt, by Doing the afformentioned things, help our constitution thrive?

how are they adhereing to our Ideology being paramount over security? my answer to this one is that they are not adhereing to our Ideology. they are in fact compromising it.

Thank you for your time
I look forward to your reply's

For those that say that these investigations and monitoring only apply to international transactions, a little investigation into the matter might be in order.

I particularly remember a story that broke a few months ago about a guy who sent in a cheque (for about 3.5KUSD I think) to clear a credit card account. When he checked sometime later the cheque had still not cleared and his credit card debt still remained.
It turns out it was flagged as an unusual payment, due to his normally much smaller monthly payments, and he was investigated by the Department of Homeland (in)Security. I think a couple of similar accounts appeared around the same time.

Our Governments and their alphabet agencies (and most likely external agencies too) already have access to our financial records. It would be dumb to assume otherwise.

Folks, this has gone on for years with a little something from the Reagan era called the WOD, not the WOT. That's right, the war on drugs. Money transfers, deposits and withdrawls are monitored everyday. Do you really think that the gov't has not been monitoring the money all along?

The fact is that a publication is releasing sensitive material that does not need to be announced on the front page. I mean, if was are in wartime, would they not be considered either terrorists or traitors for releasing information that is currently bieng used in operations concerning wartime efforts?

Stop blaming everything on the president and start to look around you. You are so filled with hatred for something that you cannot change, you cannot see who is actually taking away your rights and making you hate your own country.

It does not matter who wins the next election, out own country is turning into itself, and the terrorists are winning. The have made you hate your country.

esdad71-

original quote by:esdad71
Stop blaming everything on the president and start to look around you. You are so filled with hatred for something that you cannot change, you cannot see who is actually taking away your rights and making you hate your own country.

where in any of my posts in this or any other thread did I ever even allude to hating my country?

I absolutely love my country which is why I care enough to pay attention to what happens in my nation. I have no hatred towards anyone from any nation let alone from our own. I wish not for death/pain for our President nor any of our other members of govt. What I do wish for is for them to be forthwright and honest from the start; adhereing to the highest ethical principles that mankind can dictate.


Also I know all to well of the past transgressions of our federal govt. But that is not relevant to this particular topic or else the thread wouldve been called "the Reagan years tapped before you knew" or something like that. I am focusing on this particular issue.Nor does the fact that it has been done before validate it as legal now.

original quote by:esdad71
It does not matter who wins the next election, out own country is turning into itself, and the terrorists are winning. The have made you hate your country.

A.) The measure of value for the elections in our country is; only as of, as much importance as, you will it to have. To me, they are of the upmost importance and signifigance. Even if my candidate doesnt have a chance in hell. It is the process of voicing my opinion in what direction I would like to see our country go.

b.)The terrorists are winning? bacause I am involved in wanting to know what my govt is doing? you seem to have this underlying premise that our current leadership (both sides) have been honest not only in they're intentions; but also, in they're actions. This has been proven one more than one occasion to not be the case.

C.) You obviously havnt read a single post that I have typed in this thread since you accuse me(or others) in this room of hating America. Where do you get this perspective? Take a few minutes to actually read my posts esdad71 and then tell me where I said I hate my country.:down:

original quote by:esdad71
The fact is that a publication is releasing sensitive material that does not need to be announced on the front page

the fact, as you so put it, is that there was no "sensitive material" revealed...like you said...and I quote

original quote by:esdad71
Folks, this has gone on for years with a little something from the Reagan era called the WOD, not the WOT. That's right, the war on drugs. Money transfers, deposits and withdrawls are monitored everyday. Do you really think that the gov't has not been monitoring the money all along?

Looks like you answered your own question esdad71.

You even admit it yourself that it should be common knowledge that the govt keeps track of all banking movements.its right there in your statement that I put into bold in the above quote.

Now if you insist that the publication released any detailed information or schematics of any kind then post it. so that I can better understand what sensitive data that you were inferring.



thank you for your time

How many threads do we need open to discuss the same subject?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Please use the SEARCH function!



[edit on 27-6-2006 by FallenFromTheTree]

Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree

How many threads do we need open to discuss the same subject?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

yeah sorry bout that. I didnt realize that the one you listed was done three hours before mine...doh!

lol apparently theres at least three... subz did a piece on atsnn.

US Government Has Access To Financial Data Of Anyone On The Globe

Actually it's 4 now.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is a very important issue and it does deserve open discussion, but it might help
to concentrate our efforts in one primary thread.

oops


[edit on 27-6-2006 by spacedoubt]

original quote by:FallenFromTheTree
This is a very important issue and it does deserve open discussion, but it might help to concentrate our efforts in one primary thread.

just to make it organized here are all four threads on this topic here at ATS.

US Government Has Access To Financial Data Of Anyone On The Globe
President says New York Times is disgaceful
Twisted Headline
and of course this one.

After reading the other three I think that the Mods are leaving all four open (so far) because they are all going in different directions.

Back to topic:

One of the Main points of this particular threads topics is:
What "sensitive data" did the NYT actually print?

How does this action on behalf of the US govt. help/hurt the strength and life of our constitutional form of govt?

On what legal pretext does the United states have authority to override the Fourth Amendment(Domestic)

And what legal authority to they have to use these methods abroad?

those are some of the main points I would like to have addressed in this particular thread.

I also have a couple of specific points with spacedoubt and esdad71.

please continue the debate as I look forward to everyones input

thank you for your time


*note to MODS- you guys know what your doing so do what you gotta do. thanks guys

Tone 23, The fact that you wish to make a statement personal is your own choice. Sorry about that. I did not ask a question of you but the forum in general, yet you were offended enough to defend your own views. I am not bieng critical to the fact of your points, I am stating that this is nothing new with the intrusion of financial records.

When one however starts to question ones own government, you may learn more than they truly want to know about how the world really works. You then become one of 2 things, subservent, or you empower yourself with knowledege and do not allow your views to be distorted or corrupted.

That said however, the fact is that the NYT should not post sensitive material jsut ot make Bush look bad. That is not good for anyone. I am not stating that they should not print stories about his goofs and blunders, but WOT information should be withheld. I would think that anyone would agree that the security of the nation depends of certain information.

The NYT revealed information about SWIFT since you wanted to know.



[edit on 27-6-2006 by esdad71]

original quote by:esdad71
Tone 23, The fact that you wish to make a statement personal is your own choice. I did not ask a question of you but the forum in general, yet you were offended enough to defend your own views. I am not bieng critical to the fact of your points, I am stating that this is nothing new with the intrusion of financial records.

As the author of this particular thread; I felt I should defend my position of your point blank statement twice of: (any) of us in here hating our country.

If that is not what you meant to say than maybe in the future you should be more precise with your choice of wording.

I posed two Direct questions for you:
The first we have addressed above.

the second question for you was:
By your own admission there is nothing new that our govt is intruding(your word)
upon financial records.

How then is this story by the NYT releasing sensitive material; given your above statement?
And if they did release "sensitive" info; What info, specifically, did the NYT print that is "sensitive"?

I look forward to your reply and thank you for your contribution.

original quote by:esdad71
The NYT revealed information about SWIFT since you wanted to know.

ohhh yeah you mean this S.W.I.F.T

WOW must be a huge secret... they have they're own website for crying out loud
that even tells about what they do.

Id say try again esdad71

heres another little tidbit for you all who say the NYT is shameful for the story

Money.cnn.com

In which tony snow himself says that this is nothing that the govt has kept secret.

Snow also stressed the Treasury Department's transparency regarding the program, noting "we've never denied it [the program], we have been open that we do this."

So again what is it that the NYT did that was so wrong?

Originally posted by smokenmirrors
However, I do believe there are those who wish to destroy democracy, not the U.S. mind you, but democracy

This is why I question your motives for supporting the administration and the WOT.

You are under the illusion that we live in a democracy...

In a true democracy we would have more than two choice and they wouldn't be controlled by the same rich elite corporations.

So I don't see anybody trying to destroy a democracy we don't have. Right now I only see people who are fighting against an invader just like you would if the tables were reversed. What kind of democracy forces themselves on other countries?

A good example closer to home is proposition 215, the use of medical marijuana.
Voted in unanimously in California, yet the legally 'democratically' voted proposition is ignored by the feds, and by many local city and state governments. So much for your democracy eh?

What we need is to get rid of the government we have now and have a true democracy where the people, not big business, has a real say in the way the government goes about its business. We will not get that with either the dems or the cons.

[edit on 27/6/2006 by ANOK]

First,
Thank you for adding the periods, I would have thought you would have understood. I guess I overestimated.

Second,
Read the article if you want to know what was released and what the issue is. I did, and it pissed my off. The NYT is famous for this.

Third,
Why attack Tony Snow for doing his job?

Think of it this way, If the police were attempting to bust a large coke dealer, and then the local paper ran an article called, "Police currently investigating drug dealing at 745 Bluebird lane" and the bust went sour, who is to blame? The police for not acting quick enough, or the media. My guess is you would blame the PoH-lice. You have every right to know what your government is doing, but this is over the line. There is no need to release a story like that except to try ot smear the right, and that is all it was. Take it how you feel.

original quote by:esdad71
First,
Thank you for adding the periods, I would have thought you would have understood. I guess I overestimated.

Of course I understood. I added the periods because it was the official way the site did it and I thought it proper to place the periods. If I hadnt posted the link I would've left out the periods. And thanks for the "I guess I overestimated." cheapshot against my ability to discern what your lazy typing inferred. most rude on your part there sir. :down:

original quote by:esdad71
Second,
Read the article if you want to know what was released and what the issue is. I did, and it pissed my off. The NYT is famous for this.

Read the Article? I posted it!
What I am asking you is what you personally felt (with references) was "sensitive" or "compromising"
And lets leave the swift thing out since that is common knowledge(official website gives away the secrecy)
and this time actually try to post something(since this is one of the basic principles of your entire arguement)

original quote by:esdad71
Third,
Why attack Tony Snow for doing his job?

How did quoting what he said translate to attacking him?

original quote by:esdad71
Think of it this way, If the police were attempting to bust a large coke dealer, and then the local paper ran an article called, "Police currently investigating drug dealing at 745 Bluebird lane" and the bust went sour, who is to blame? The police for not acting quick enough, or the media. My guess is you would blame the PoH-lice. You have every right to know what your government is doing, but this is over the line.

1.) your analogy is flawed for these reasons:
A.)You are attempting to rationalize this arguement through using a completely irrelevant analogy that has no basis for a realistic translation to this topic. Heres why:
First of all your analogy is one suspected criminial. In this topic we are NOT talking about one suspected criminal. We are talking about massive financial tracking of everyone in 200 +countries. There is no way in the world you can possibly connect the two as remotely similar.
B.)your "local paper" gave precise details. This again is not comparable to what the NYT has done with this story(and you still havnt provided any specifics in this regard.. other than "swift" which I blew out of the water.)
C.) you have already said in your own words twice, mind you, that the fact that the govt tracks all financial transactions all around the world should be common knowledge. Sited examples below.
example 1:

original quote by:esdad71
Do you really think that the gov't has not been monitoring the money all along?

AND
example 2:

original quote by:esdad71
I am stating that this is nothing new with the intrusion of financial records.

hmmm....it seems your arguement is running in circles.
How can the fact that it is supposed to be obvious to me that the govt does this; yet at the same time, you say that the NYT is hurting america by telling us what YOU say we should already know. AND since the basis for your whole arguement is that the NYT released sensitive material that you have yet to illustrate adequately to convince me of your arguement.

original quote by:esdad71
There is no need to release a story like that except to try ot smear the right, and that is all it was. Take it how you feel.

This is not a party matter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this is about our govt on both sides circumventing and /or outright usurping the Constitution in the name of an unending war!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am so sick and tired of right/left it makes me sick to my stomach
also this is not the place for left/right stone throwing and Ill not play that game with you here, sir.

balls in your court champ... And lets keep the gloves above the waist ok.

What is the point of your post?

Originally posted by TONE23

Im almost feeling bad for the press at this point. They are besieged on both sides.
From we the people they get labelled as complicit to the govt and on the other side the govt is trying to attack the press from the other side.

Hopefully that isn't excessive quoting because I am getting a bit tired around here with mods and their arbitrary application of rules but here goes...

Who do you think the media is working for then? I mean if they appear in the middle to you then they are not being supported by the public and not by the whitehouse which I do agree with. Then who are they working for? Would like you view on the subject.