Religion or science?

I know my own views but i'm interested to hear some theories on the whole "creation" thing.

NEVER, believe what they teach you in physics, biology, chemistry and astronomy classes, not under any point, not under any condition. That is all a lie created by enemies of christianity to confuse and degrade you!


All mighty allah created everything you see and let me jus' tell you how!

Before anything existed there was this guy we'll call God who had existed for all of the eternity before anything existed doing nothing and thinking nothing.



On the first day of creation this God thought, "Hey, let's have some water here." And poof there was water and God floated around in it. This water was dark and had no form. The Bible called this water, the earth (Genesis 1:2). Then God said, "let's have some light here." Poof we have light. What is the source of this light? We don't know, since this is only the first day of creation and the sun and the stars aren't created until the fourth day (Genesis 1:14). At the end of the first day of creation, God decides that he doesn't want the light and the darkness to be together anymore so he seperates them and calls them day and night. How darkness was able to exist in the presence of light before God seperated them is another of those great biblical mysteries.
From that point he created everyhting else that is worth creating.

Later under unseen and bizzare circumstances some men decided to rebel against mighty father and came up with horrible lies about evolution and thee universe. this evil wicked thing they called science.

Remember that this is the only true, everything else is a lie.
BELIEVE THAT and you will be saved.
And that's a promise

Wow, I know you were being sarcastic Tyler, but that sounds like truth. God did this, and it was, after words science made by satan is evil! Sure, the wheel is science, airplane, medicine, and other things that make life more easy or better, but hey, it science and evil. Right truth? Wait, the only truth?

The science that saved my life after my car accident is evil. The science that my cat Moonster alive after he got cancer is evil. The science of the wheel attached to the gears and engine(also a form of science, how mechanics work and everything) on the ambulance, the science of the human body and studies of it to make the surgery possible, using science(yes, a scapel, while minute, uses forces in science, aka using a handle to increase effectivness and such is simple science) and the x-rays and MRI and the metal plates and shiznick all science that kept me alive. But truth says this is evil. Sorry, I ranted a little, but truth has "left" twice and has come back.

I follow the traditional models of science.

Let's see if your test tubes can save you in the long run.

Oops, I didn't mean to come in here. William, that's the last time I'll follow your lead!

HA! Just when you thought you were out... they pull you back in.

Actually, I don't need to be saved from anything... so, that statement makes no sense.

If we need to be "saved" from anything, it's the corrupted *people* that use any methods they can find (including science, religion, politics...*anything*) to make others suffer for their own greed & pride.

Even since "science" has come up with WMD's, scientific studies have already proven to be capable of allowing people to survive nearly countless diseases, wounds & injuries that would have otherwise been fatal, allowed us to grow more food to feed more people (It's been the corrupted people that have been keeping it away from the hungry ones). In short, the sciences are responsible for saving more lives than than the corrupted people have been killing; If this wasn't the truth, then our race would've been extinct before any people of the current generation were born.

IMO, if scientific curiosity & study are approached in the right way, it could be said that the scientist is trying to learn how God put it all together...Then figure out how to help people with that knowledge. The biggest problem has never been science...It's always been *people* that've caused the problems.

BTW TC, don't worry too much about getting "dragged" back in here...Even the most rabid atheists I've ever met just *love* to talk about religion...


[Edited on 29-10-2002 by MidnightDStroyer]

What pompous arrogant attitudes from little humans that are no more in control of their own fate than a dog on a 360" leash. You have just enough free movement to think you are the master.
When the heart beats its last beat, and if I'm right and you are not, then you'll need not only saving, you'll need alot of water and an asbestos suit!
And furthermore, I am not going to get sucked back in this quagmire of insanity, this quicksand of craziness, I am fleeing fo rmy sanity before Connie comes along and locks the door behind me and never lets me out!
I suggest to everyone, run...RUN!!!
Be afraid of the religion forum...it da devil!!!

[Edited on 30-10-2002 by Thomas Crowne]

So who's *really* on the leash...The person who knows fully well that he can shut off his computer? Or the one that believes that someone else is going to "lock the door behind him"?

Besides, when confronted by a world that is entirely insane, wouldn't the most logical response be to adapt to insanity without letting it control you? Bend instead of break!


[Edited on 30-10-2002 by MidnightDStroyer]

Hey TC...

Glad to see you still have the Sprit of Truth in you. Gee where did I here that before: cool:

The fact of the matter is Religion was the first science. Man quest to define it self in relation to the vast unknown. Getting of the cycle of concluding, that somehow and idea is more important than life itself does and is very important. And as TC has so professionally pointed, out at death we all have something to consider. Unless of course despite what TC has claimed we do not really die (as the term is implied).

Specifically what I am referring to be that all religions speak of life after what we (in all probability) inappropriately call death. And as I have pointed out, even science does seem to imply. That such is an aspect of reality and does in fact exist. For all intent and purpose this does signify a step forward in comprehending not only the past but as well, the present and the future.

TC you and I have been around the block several times. For the most part I have found you points to be of value. But the crap about the devil really sucks and personally cannot help but attach the link included so we have the record strait as to who may be demonic. The simple fact that such as you insists on interfering in conversation, which is simply intent upon addressing whatever issues, may exist portends to an issue in which my impression is you seem ill equipped to respond




Anotated

[Edited on 30-10-2002 by Toltec]

I can't hear you, M-D, as my fingers are in my ears and I'm typing with my toes (and having better luck with them than I do with my monkey-fisted fingers!), and besides, I'm not really in here. I said I would not come back in here, and theefore I won't and I'm not in here now.
Gotta go now. Have a good yesterday.

Originally posted by ToltecThe fact of the matter is Religion was the first science. Man quest to define it self in relation to the vast unknown.

As far as I've studied, this is true. It seems that Religion & Science had their "falling out" during the time that Greece had philosophers running around everywhere...Like Socrates, for example. That period in history was the first time that people began contemplating the mysteries of life *without* involving the gods to explain it all!

TC, I wish you a good today & rest of your life...Even if you're not here to read it!

My impression is that what science was not at that time prepared to answer, got in the way. The strange happenings/miracles/ paranormal capacities/raising the dead and so on.

Its to say that as children we start our with "My dad is better than your dad!" and by the time we are adults it turns into "My God is better than your God!"

In essence nothing has changed we are still engaged in the same stupid game. Pretending that somehow because there our voices have changed some meaning beyond that early childhood prank is more significant. Important enough to fight, harass, abuse and even kill for.

MD I do not think My God is better than your God. My impression is that your interpretation of God is a very personal experience. One, which you can to an extent, relates but there is a point at which words fail to do justice. Conversely my interpretation of God falls under the same situation. We can discuss and even argue to the extent we are able to beyond that, there is always more. Because of this what we have as individuals interpreted to the point we can verbalize is nothing to fight over. In fact it is something to learn from each other in relation to new vistas in interpretation.

PS: MD do you know what a Jonin is?

To answer your last question first; Jonin was the "chief ninja" of the clan...Sort of the "family head" of the mob. "Genin" were the ordinary ninja...Sort of the regular "foot soldier".

I see God & the differing visions of Him with people the same way described by that old story about the 3 blind men trying to describe an elephant...Everybody is merely seeing different aspects of Him & have no other choice but to believe in Him in their own individual way. In a nutshell, my opinion is that my God & yours (& Islam's, etc.) are actually the same entity but since we are seperated by distance, different childhood up-bringings & different cultures, we see God differently...So, in all honesty, how could I make any claim of "My God is better than yours"?

However, it seems that the different religions subscribe to that way of thinking & should learn to grow up. This is how I see the difference between Faith & Religion...Religion may have been *inspired* by Faith, but it's only gotten twisted around by short-sighted people (Some of which have been corrupt & greedy, leading them to make even *more* alterations to a religious structure, leading to further seperation of the Faithful, etc, etc, ad infinitum, ad nausea).

[Edited on 30-10-2002 by MidnightDStroyer]

LOL... Genin here I was concerned that a Ronin had steeped out of his path. And I find, that what potentially is a Genin speaking his own point of view. And so as a result I do defer to what in you should be common knowledge.

Imagine your self-surrounded by four enemies, not unlike the elephant does and is apparent. Blind are you to what is there intent. Seek only what exist beyond their faith, as a result the only lie is what you think is apparent. Consider this a subtle translation, in relation to a potential threat: Forget what you accept as real, be orientated to what is beyond that concept. Never make an estimate of the intent of what is a threat. Place yourself beyond the resigning of that of which, harm to you makes sense. If you are confused, consider the path taken by an animal in the wild. To whom Death never makes any sense, despite that fact death in the wild occurs every day. Perhaps the intent of God (which is almighty) secures a meaning words simply are not able to make.


For sake of staying on topic let me be very clear. My impression is God is beyond any conception we have to date considered. As a result the issue of nausea simply does not exist. I am impressed MD with your conclusions and your awareness. To be clear to say that, " My God is not better than yours" Genin is correct. As a result my only other response is this.

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are that the world can live in peace...If people can learn to respect each other enough not to use bullets instead of words. There will *always* be differences in opinion, but they can be discussed logically & calmly; Just leave you guns & bombs at home.

If it weren't for a similar dogma existing in the scientific community as what appears in the religious circles (It's merely less outspoken than religion gets), the sciences can be useful for promoting spiritualism as much as materialism is promoted in these days. There *are* some "spiritual sciences" in existance (Falling under the general category of Paranormal Studies) but the mainstream sciences devote too little time & resources in those investigations compared to the more physical sciences.

My thoughts are that they should put some more effort to achieve more of a balance with the spiritual.

But then again, so far only the religious sector seems to be preoccupied with the spirit...Political & commercial concerns only advance the material (Usually only for their own benefit).

quote Toltec
"My God is better than your God"
I agree with this. There is such a difference in opinion worldwide that it is impossible to put a finger on "The one true answer" But then again, like MidnightDstroyer says, everyone could be referring to the same entity. BUT how is this possible? (think the good old christian vs satanist deal)
what I find, is that science is factual and is agreed upon. (sorry religious peeps) Of course there are many mysteries to be uncovered (some which are most likely being kept secret by the usual CIA etc)
but hey, the world isn't flat after all, all these years later.

iots really very simple.
people who believe in a supernatural theology to the point where they percieve an omnipotent force controling the universe are quite obviously insane and should be taken in for imediate psychological analysis and not let out unless they demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that their belief will never manifest itself in any physical manner verbal or otherwise.

Lupe can you prove beyond any shadow of reasonable doubt the you exist?

A person this country can believe anything they want about themselves. The question becomes an issue in relation to mental health when what a person believes generates a threat to either self or other. So if a person think he or she is Santa Clause no harm done. That is unless they start breaking into houses on Christmas Eve to deliver presents.

As a result Lupe being Obviously insane, is not a criteria for being admitted to a Mental Heath Center.

This is simple, we were created by God. Darwin was wrong, we did not evolve from monkeys!