About the Miami seven

Originally posted by Nygdan
I can't see entrapment being a legitimate defense for mass murder. Drug dealing, yes, hell, MAYBE even a single instance of murder, but not mass murder and terorrism.

But no one's actually dead. If they had gone through with it, then yes, lock 'em up, because that would mean that they had picked up the ball and run with it. As it stands, they were in Miami, thinking about it, and put out some feelers. They got a response from just one guy (which should let us know that these 'sleeper cells' aren't as numerous as we've been led to believe). This guy proceeded, for all intents and purposes, to set them up.

Now that I'm really thinking about it, it occurs to me that the agent was more likely an informant, since he would have had to blend in. I wonder what kind of deal he got.

fixed grammar

[edit on 26-6-2006 by HarlemHottie]

So what you are saying, is turn the other cheek since like we did with the intel from 9/11? We had no idea what they were up to and look what happened. (Able Danger if you believe the facts only)

What we should be worried about is how many of these other 'home grown' cells are out there. Is not a black or white thing, for they both can hate the US in an equal fashion in cases such as this. They werer also foriegn nationals who seemed to recruit children, easily influenced people from the roigh streets of Liberty City in Miami. There are 1000's of misguided and unparetned youths out there with no direction also, and they are the prey here.

Also, from reports, they approached the FBI informant, who was not a member of the FBI, only an informant I believe. This means someone got scared when they heard what these guys wanted to do. It would not suprise me if there are other arrests in the coming weeks and months.

It is on thing to have a groups such as Al-Qeada, it is another when your own citizens want to attmept to contact a terror organization for guidance, or assistance. I say send them into the service, maybe they will go AWOL and see waht is is really like over there, and how good it is in America.

Personally, I think this was a huge shock to GW
but regardless one thing is for sure.

These guys wont go to guantanamo, they will be tried and jailed...
Amazing we cant give other terrorists that luxury.

Especially ones from the 'coalition.

Why assume that they won't go to Gitmo? I doubt that they will, but since Padilla was an american citizen made into an enemy combatant, its allways possible that they will be considered as such too (doubtful though, but still possible).

edit to add

Amazing we cant give other terrorists that luxury. Especially ones from the 'coalition.

Huh?

Why should foreigners be take from afghanistan into america and be processed in courts for american citizens??

harlemhottie
But no one's actually dead

And that means that they wouldn't've killed anyone? Conspiracy to commit mass murder is a crime. I honestly can't see much of a difference between it and actually commiting mass murder, in terms of the person being a danger to society or havin broken the 'social contract'. Just because these guys were inept terrorists doesn't mean that they werent' terrorists.

As it stands, they were in Miami, thinking about it, and put out some feelers.

Shoudl result in instant death penalty no? Considering mass murder and terrorism? Put a bullet in their heads then.

Now that I'm really thinking about it, it occurs to me that the agent was more likely an informant, since he would have had to blend in.

I have heard the news say it was an informant at times, yes. Though, it wouldnt' take much to set up a front to the same effect either. Indeed, there must be many of both. Heck, we probably have peopel that are out and out diabolical terrorists who are only helping us because they've been forced to.

[edit on 26-6-2006 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by Nygdan
They could've easily converted. I had heard that they were members of hte Nation of Islam.

That seems to be disinformation. They are "black" and seem to be following their own hybrid version of "Christianity/Islam". So some uninformed people have been calling them "black muslims". But there's no real connection (so far) to THE "Black Muslims".

Originally posted by nakedtruth
So some uninformed people have been calling them "black muslims ..

That happens a lot when people are dealing with Nation of Islam and any
groups associated with them. You hear the word 'ISLAM' and you automatically
think of THE Islam. They use a lot of the same terms, same readings, etc ...
but they definately aren't THE Islam that most think of.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
But no one's actually dead.

So in your opinion bad guys can only be put in jail if people die?
Thank goodness the LAW says differently.

They got a response from just one guy

So what? One response or twenty; it doesn't change the
fact that these people wanted to make their plans actually
happen. They made moves to make it happen. It doesn't
matter how many responses they got to their inquiries.
What matters is that they were fully and completely able
and willing to go the entire distance in these planned terror
attacks.

it occurs to me that the agent was more likely an informant

An agent and an informant are too very different things.
The FBI has been very clear ... this was an AGENT.
So there is no need to speculate about 'deals'.
There weren't any. Agents don't get deals.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
CNN calls them "inept."

So what? Many criminals are inept. That doesn't change the fact
that they had massive terror plans and that they contacted a person
whom they thought to be a terrorist to help them make the plans
a reality. It was their every intent to make their plans a reality.

As to my "whipping boy" statement, I stand by it.

Again - how are they whipping boys? They are 7 people, who were
conspiring to mass murder tens of thousands of people in a terror
attack and who made moves to make those plans a reality. How
exactly are they scape goats when THEY were involved in criminal
activities that could have caused MASSIVE death and destruction.

No one forced them to make terror plans. No one forced them to
find outside help from terrorists to make it happen. They made
their own beds. Now they will lie in them.

So do you think they should get off because they are black
and because they didn't manage to kill people? Is that what you
are saying? If not, then please explain yourself more because that's
the impression I'm getting from you.

There was both a Roman Cermony and a Roman Calendar - telling us that the date these guys was arrested was set up by - the unknown.

Divide and conquer kids.

The Georgian Calendar shows us the operation started Monday the 19th June 2006.

The actual date was 6th June 2006 - This calendar i believe is still being used by the Illuminati.
And The Ortodox Church still uses that Calendar.

It has roots to Nazi Germany - Bohemia Grove and Ancient Rome, and i wouldn't be suprised if it goes all the way back to Babylon.

The Julian Calendar was Founded 45 years before Jesus Christ Supar-Star was born. The date this whole caos began was actually the feared DATE 666... yeah you actually missed that date - and some of you looked for the bad guy on the TV on a perfectly normal day.

That whole week since 19th June 2006 to 23 June 2006 - Was as the Huge exercise that was named - As a Valiant shield to once and for all start a new area of paranoia. lol*

The whole thing about the Kim lil KanonBall - Rocket - Was nothing less than a symbol of Satan's giant Beep* Also known as Fallos. Which most of you by now have forgotten everything about.

That whole week was a celebration by the Elite to Satan and what ever that red mongo means.

Now you can start the debate - But from now on you will never agree with anything, cause from now on - The Human intellect will for a very long time be divided into two kind of believe - Though non of us will admit that it is a religion.

Des more and more you will argue the case of the FBI arrest, there will never be a solution to the problem, cause everything is actually set up - that now you must realize what side you are on, if you want to know.

Thats just my thoughts.
Divide and conquer kids.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
But no one's actually dead

And that means that they wouldn't've killed anyone? Conspiracy to commit mass murder is a crime. I honestly can't see much of a difference between it and actually commiting mass murder, in terms of the person being a danger to society or havin broken the 'social contract'. Just because these guys were inept terrorists doesn't mean that they werent' terrorists.

Refer to the note to esdad71 and FlyersFan at the bottom of this post. I think they're guilty of something, I just can't be sure of what exactly that is, at this point. I need more information.

Originally posted by HarlemHottieAs it stands, they were in Miami, thinking about it, and put out some feelers.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Shoudl result in instant death penalty no? Considering mass murder and terrorism? Put a bullet in their heads then.

Wow, bloodthirsty much? There is no such thing as a "instant death penalty" in this country, because we have this crazy thing called a trial by a jury of your peers.

Sorry about the sarcasm, cuz I like you. But, we can't really "consider mass murder and terrorism," because they didn't do it. Conspiracy, yes, actually accomplishing anything, no.

Does the FBI set up sting operations to catch all the kids who want to pull a Columbine? Was that not mass murder and terrorism?

Originally posted by HarlemHottieNow that I'm really thinking about it, it occurs to me that the agent was more likely an informant, since he would have had to blend in.

Originally posted by NygdanI have heard the news say it was an informant at times, yes. Though, it wouldnt' take much to set up a front to the same effect either.

Oh, yes, it would. Did you see the interview on CNN? That guy was functionally illiterate. An agent, or an informant, trying to infiltrate that group who spoke properly (even halfway) would have stood out, and the group would have been wary. That's why I think it was an informant, someone who grew up in the neighborhood, and informants only work for deals.

To esdad71 and FlyersFan: Please don't put words in my mouth. This is what I said on the bottom of page 4, "Due to the agent's involvement, I would, at most, consider them guilty of conspiracy, but with the lightest sentences, since the plan didn't originate with them. "

Hottie, I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I was stating an open question? Sorry if you thought otherwise.

The fact is that a number of Columbine attempts have been stopped, and if you research Columbine, it could have been prevented, but the initial tries to show something was wrong with one of the shooters were lost by the police.

Do they, the Miami 7 deserve the death penalty, no, but put them in the Army infantry and send theme overseas if they are so anxious for democracy and change.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
since the plan didn't originate with them. "

Oh. So you are saying that the FBI agent sought them out with a plan
and that the 7 conspirators went along with it? You don't think that they
had the plan and then went looking for someone to help them carry it out?

I'm not trying to be a pain. I'm just trying to clarify your position
so I can be sure of where you are coming from.

I would like to see a few links that will show which way it was -
did these guys have a plan and they sought out help or did
someone from the government go to them with a ready plan
and 'bust' them when they agreed to go along with it.

BIG POINT - either way - they wanted to kill tens of thousands of
Americans and they were willing and eager to go along with it.

Even if the FBI sought them out and presented the plan; who in
their right mind would go along with it? Only the sick and/or the
criminal amongst us.

ANYONE have some reliable links to show which way it was -
the FBI coming up with a fake terror plot that these guys
jumped on or was it these guys with a plot that the FBI
investigated? Either way .... they are criminals and they
wanted massive death in America. I want them off the
streets for a VERY long time. They are dangerous.

www.sptimes.com...


Here is an article from about the 'ringleaders' father. In this article it states informant.

www.palmbeachpost.com...

This is another, these are Florida newspapers.

The Palm beach article states that it was a "The supposed operative was actually an FBI informant working with police authorities for at least six months, according to federal prosecutors"

This clearly states that they were dealing with an informant who infiltrated. Now, this is the same thing as in a drug sting, where the buyer sets up the deal, and then you close it with the arrest. It is not entrapment. It is getting caught doing something you shouldn't.

Is does not matter who you are, if you feel you need to blow something up or destroy something within the US to prove a point, you are an enemy of the state. You should then be put in the military or deported to the country you supported and see how long you last.

If nothing else becomes of this, it is a warning to other fringe groups that we are watching them and it is a matter of time before they slip up and they will be caught.

Originally posted by esdad71
The fact is that a number of Columbine attempts have been stopped, and if you research Columbine, it could have been prevented, but the initial tries to show something was wrong with one of the shooters were lost by the police.

What did you mean here? I read it as, the police knew one of the shooters was 'disturbed,' but they lost the paperwork, or whatever. Is that what you meant?

Do they, the Miami 7 deserve the death penalty, no, but put them in the Army infantry and send theme overseas if they are so anxious for democracy and change.

Finally, something we can agree on, kinda. Incidentally, that's also my mom's solution to the War on Drugs: send all the so-called 'gangstas', who love their guns, but can't shoot straight, to Iraq and let them see some real action.

I said 'kinda' because I, too, am anxious for "democracy and change." Fortunately for me (since, as I said before, I'm against killing anyone), our founders planned for this eventuality. Of course, that was following the Boston Tea Party, our nation's first incident of 'homegrown terrorism.'

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I think they're guilty of something, I just can't be sure of what exactly that is

They're guilty of conspiracy to commit mass murder.

but with the lightest sentences, since the plan didn't originate with them. "

I can't see how we can justify light sentences to anyone agreeing to commit outrageous acts of terrorism and mass murder. Just think if what happened to the WTC had happened to the Sears Tower. Indeed, the people that planned 911 weren't the ones that actually carried it out, they were 'entrapped' by bin ladin and al-qaida, though that hardly revokes them of their responsibility for it.

Wow, bloodthirsty much?

Mwa haha.

because we have this crazy thing called a trial by a jury of your peers.

I don't mean to be literal, clearly, there has to be a trial, a defense, a sensible prosecution, and then deliberation by jury. If they are found guilty, and as far as anyone actually knows, they are perfectly innocent and have to be treated as such until its been demonstrated otherwise, but if they are found guilty, its then up to the judge, based upon, I beleive, the sentencing recomendation of the jury, whether or not to humanely execute them.
At the same time, lets remember, if they are found guilty, it will be of a horrible and terrible, nation wrecking crime. They wanted to demolish the Sears Tower, for chrissakes. If anyone deserves the death penalty, it'd be them.

That's why I think it was an informant, someone who grew up in the neighborhood, and informants only work for deals.

Its allways possible, and thats a good point. I saw the video, the man being interviewed seemed.....malleable. It could've been an internal informant, however, from what I understand, the claim is that they sought out people in the world of international terrorism, they might've done that by responding to radical islamist website that was really a front, and have expected the person at the other end to be coherent. But its all speculation at this point. Hopefully a trial will be able to show, if its true, that they were charged falsely by the informant.
A dangerous possiblity, given the current climate, is that any informant or agent might be withheld from appearing at trial, because of 'national security concerns'. The accused have to have the right to face their accusers, even if he is a secret agent.

our nation's first incident of 'homegrown terrorism.'

Lets be serious for a moment, the Founders never advocated the mass murder of british citizens, or went around poisoning wells in loyalist towns. True enough, the public tended to intimidate loyalists, tarring and feathering them, etc, but they never said, "lets go to london, and blow up a hotel full of regular people'.

ALso, lets face it, the british would've been right to execute any of the founders, had the brits won the war, the founders were engaged in a war against the state. Similarly, jihadis and wanna-be's like these people are engaged in their own war against the state. Regardless of whether or not we think that the state deserves to have war waged upon it, clearly, if you go to war with it, its going to kill the rebels should the oppurtunity arise, I mean, thats what war is.

esdad
Do they, the Miami 7 deserve the death penalty, no

Why? They, according to the charges, conspired to commit mass murder and terrorism, it shouldnt' matter that they didn't actually carry it out. Heck, they could even be charged as enemy combatants, like Padilla, and go before a military tribunal, because of the nature of their plot.

[edit on 27-6-2006 by Nygdan]

Most of the time when someone black do something they shouldn't, then somebody step in and said it was a race factor. I already expect someone to mention it as the miami 7 being targeted because they are black nothing new in this world... wouldn't even suprise me if NAACP step in. I dont want to sound like a racist myself, but i just want to point out that everytime a criminal is not white they will try to use racist to look like a victim.

First of all, let me apologize for not replying in a timely manner. I'm using my mom's computer and it is, like, SO slow. (You know it has to be bad when I revert to highschool speak.)

Originally posted by Nygdan
They're guilty of conspiracy to commit mass murder.

I agree, but I have to raise the question: at what point does it change from "talking #" to "conspiracy"? I'm leaning towards, when they responded (Yes, we're down to blow something up) to whomever they contacted. The question is academic, because I do think they're guilty of conspiracy, at least how I understand it, but I'm not a defense lawyer.

I don't mean to be literal, clearly, there has to be a trial, a defense, a sensible prosecution, and then deliberation by jury.

Okay, good. I've been reading your posts a while and, although I generally disagree, I find you hard-nosed, but reasonable. I was very worried, for a second, there.

If they are found guilty, and as far as anyone actually knows, they are perfectly innocent and have to be treated as such until its been demonstrated otherwise, but if they are found guilty, its then up to the judge, based upon, I beleive, the sentencing recomendation of the jury, whether or not to humanely execute them.

I'm against the death penalty, in any case, but I mostly agree with you here.

At the same time, lets remember, if they are found guilty, it will be of a horrible and terrible, nation wrecking crime. They wanted to demolish the Sears Tower, for chrissakes. If anyone deserves the death penalty, it'd be them.

Whoa, whoa, hold on. If they are found guilty, it will be of a horrible and terrible, nation wrecking thought. A lot of people want to do a lot of things, good and bad, but if they haven't done it yet, that's because they can't do it without help.

I'll agree that they look guilty of conspiracy, but, honestly, I'd be more convinced if, say, they had all gotten jobs, and put the money in a special 'terrorism fund.' As it is, I've read that they were building houses for people in the community, for free. So, it seems more that they were militant young black men, and looking for a group they could belong to. They didn't choose a gang, which would have been bad enough, they chose terrorism, an even worse choice. Don't mistake me for making excuses for them. As I understand it, the lighest conspiracy charges are, maybe, 20-30 years, at least, so I'm not letting them off easy.

A dangerous possiblity, given the current climate, is that any informant or agent might be withheld from appearing at trial, because of 'national security concerns'. The accused have to have the right to face their accusers, even if he is a secret agent.

Yeah, it's pretty likely that the Bushies won't let him appear, or they'll block it from the media. Something slick.

Lets be serious for a moment, the Founders never advocated the mass murder of british citizens, or went around poisoning wells in loyalist towns. True enough, the public tended to intimidate loyalists, tarring and feathering them, etc, but they never said, "lets go to london, and blow up a hotel full of regular people'.

Well, I was being a little funny, hence the winky face, but, in response, I would contend that being tarred and feathered is extremely painful. I watch Deadwood, and, while I had never really thought about the experience before, they did it to a guy on there, and I realized, the tar is hot! Duh on me.

Also, you have to consider that contemporary terrorism is greatly aided by modern modes of transportation: by the time they got to London, the war would have been over.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Whoa, whoa, hold on. If they are found guilty, it will be of a horrible and terrible, nation wrecking thought.

That is the logic behind conspiracy charges though.

I'll agree that they look guilty of conspiracy, but, honestly, I'd be more convinced if, say, they had all gotten jobs, and put the money in a special 'terrorism fund.'

Well, I agree, the way they went about it isn't how I'd go about it, but still.

, I've read that they were building houses for people in the community, for free.

I think that the Seas of David were doing this, and they were part of that orgnization.

and I realized, the tar is hot! Duh on me.

True enough, but the *sucker deserved it. (speaking deadwood style)

by the time they got to London, the war would have been over.

And, of course, the british were about as frustrated with the rebels as the us is with the jihadis over 'not standing up to fight like gentlmen'.

And there are instances of the rebels breaking the laws of war, such as snipping officers (must've been a law passed by the officers), or even refusing to take prisoners (ie, killing surrendering troopers, they called it 'giving them Tartons Quarter').

But still, the people that did 911 are no Geo. Washington, and the clerics inciting hatred aren't quite like Sam Adams (at least he produced a beer).