Netvocates: Our debunkers revealed

Originally posted by Griff
Wow, what spin, spin, spin.

How is it spin? Its an utterly plausible suggestion that would explain why they didn't go into 'deep investigation' mode. They figured out who did it, and rather than continue to investigate every scrap, moved on.

How about the government trying to figure out how the buildings fell just for future engineers to know what not to do?

Short of designing buildings that magically have giant jet-liners pass through them, its not likely to happen.

How about them trying to figure it out for the safety of future firemen?

Figure what out exactly? The towers were hit by big fuel laden jet-planes. It shouldnt' require putting catalog tapes on each and every peice of debris to figure out why they fell down.

we are saying that the government should have tried to figure out WHAT happened.

A friggin plane hit the building.

LoneGunMan
I cant figure out why this post bothered Nygdan and WyrdeOne so much

It didn't bother me, I am trying to have a discussion, why are you so bothered?

I cant figure out why this post bothered Nygdan and WyrdeOne so much

My statements were that it was inevitable, its a Public Relations and Advertising Company, thats what Public Relations firms and Advertising Firms do, they tell nice lies, in hope that you'll 'buy it'.

If the pay is good, i'll be posting the total opposite of my beliefs and make some money.

Or, you and a group of people could pool some money together and hire the group to send people out to express your beleifs.

Lets just remember, these guys are merchants, not idealists, they're selling a product to a customer. Its not like, say, FOX news, where they actually appear to beleive that crap.

Majic makes a very nice point. So let me expand on it. Since this is a somewhat covert PR for hire, what is to prevent them from accepting a contract from both the pro and con sides of an issue or topic? Neither side would openly admit that they needed help in bringing forth "the truth" in their point of view, so they could easily take money from both sides and when a small topic becomes escalated into a major issue...go back to the two sides and request more money to combat the other side.

Wow, that could reach the point of blackmail, because if the pro side refused to pay then the con side could "find out" that the pro side was trying to use paid PR to combat the truth of an issue.

It's not just that other people have a different point of view.

What I've noticed recently is a lot of new posters suddenly showing up arguing the governments official story, who jump into threads very quickly to put down any conspiricy theory in a very agressive way. Aggresive posters with cute names...


I have smelled the fish for awhile.

Take Netvocates and this...

www.gnn.tv...

If you aren't suspicous you're not living in reality.

Fitting The Profile

Originally posted by ANOK
What I've noticed recently is a lot of new posters suddenly showing up arguing the governments official story, who jump into threads very quickly to put down any conspiricy theory in a very agressive way.
Aggresive posters with cute names...

I've seen some of this. I've also seen the same tactics used to promote conspiracy theories -- and virtually every point of view expressed on ATS.

Most members have cute names.

What makes the sort of services Netvocates offers so insidious is this:

www.netvocates.com...

NetVocates then recruits activists and consumers who share the client’s views in order to reinforce those key messages on targeted blogs – and rebut misinformation when appropriate.

In other words, it could be any of us.

Wolf In Wolf's Clothing

Verily verily I say unto thee: there is probably no way of knowing who is paid and who isn't, because they all come from the same pool of people, and they all believe that what they're doing is right.

They will use the same tactics as unpaid activists because that's exactly why they're hired: to blend in.

Thus to suspect someone is being paid simply because they're fanatical about some cause or another, or use troll tactics, is to forget that a hell of a lot more people do it for free.

Which is why my advice is to not worry about it, because we can't stop them from doing it.

As a defense against this sort of manipulation, may I suggest skepticism?

Originally posted by Nygdan

How about them trying to figure it out for the safety of future firemen?

Figure what out exactly? The towers were hit by big fuel laden jet-planes. It shouldnt' require putting catalog tapes on each and every peice of debris to figure out why they fell down.

we are saying that the government should have tried to figure out WHAT happened.

A friggin plane hit the building.

So what, a friggin plane hit the building. That does not account for 20% of the building taking down the other 80%. It doesnt work that way, if it did Firefighters would never step into a high rise building to attack a fire. You would get a partial collapse not a global one. Please and save the explanation of the pancake theorie.

Nygdan, how many buidings hav you seen collapse? How many hungreds of hours have you spent studying what types of building collapse due to fire and what to whach out for if one does collapse. My job is to know how fire causes certain buildings to collapse. Dont tell me its because a plane hit it, because we all saw that on television. Flight 175 nearly missed and did not hit the center supports squarely, but that building fell first. This was not meant to be a 9/11 argument anyway that has been done over and over.

This is about hired guns going to different sites and stating what is supposed to be a personal opinion, yet you do not see something wrong with that. Do you not have morals? To whore someone else opinion for money is just one of the many things wrong with this world. I just wish people would be a bit more spiritual, honest and here to help each other out. Of course I always knew it was being done but its kind of nice to see the proof.

Yeah I hear ya Majic. It's just that some posters seem too obvious, and with the sudden increase (I'm talking 9-11 threads here) it just makes me suspicious.

But what can one do? Not much eh? I'm gonna act on my gut feelings and start utilizing the ignore option I think.

BTW is my name cute...LOL

[edit on 23/6/2006 by ANOK]

The Anti-Kona

Originally posted by ANOK
BTW is my name cute...LOL

Yes. Yes it is.

And please don't get me wrong. I think it's excellent that you're suspicious.

I mean heck, this *is* a conspiracy site, after all.

My point is that there is probably no practical way to separate the pros from the amateurs.

Rather, I think it makes sense to carry on the same way regardless, and thereby avoid letting them succeed.

Pro or amateur, an activist can only control you if you let them.

Grass Roots Activism

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
I just wish people would be a bit more spiritual, honest and here to help each other out.

We can't change what other people choose to do, only make suggestions or lead by example.

Between the two, the only one that ever seems to work is the latter.

Interesting - albeit somewhat disturbing - company.

The problem is that it could just as easily be argued that such companies work for the opposite contentions being made. Disinformation has been around since time immemorial, and the assumption by all "sides" that the only people who buy and sell it are those opposed to their own position is, in my opinion, folly.

I do suspect a conspiracy. However I have no proof or hard evidence of what the true shape and nature of that conspiracy is. Furthermore, it would be myopic for me not to assume that there are those benefiting from the various conspiracy theories gaining ground as well. Remember: just because something seems to confirm your suspicions or agree with your position doesn't mean it's necessarily on your side, or noble. All political parties, all private parties, and all economic parties, have these tools at their disposal. I think we forget this too often.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan


So what, a friggin plane hit the building. That does not account for 20% of the building taking down the other 80%. It doesnt work that way, if it did Firefighters would never step into a high rise building to attack a fire. You would get a partial collapse not a global one. Please and save the explanation of the pancake theorie.

So if the upper 20% falls onto the lower 80% it somehow magically stops as the 80% structure will magically hold the energy it isn't supoosed to support? How will you have then partial collapse? Where would the falling cap stop and for what reason?

Jump off this path and hit up the main one. This isn't a thread for discussing the 9/11 Conspiracy, it's for people's opinions on the thought of comapnies hiring people to undertake these activities.

Originally posted by tuccy
So if the upper 20% falls onto the lower 80% it somehow magically stops as the 80% structure will magically hold the energy it isn't supoosed to support?

Blah Blah Blah Blah....

Can't even leave it alone in a thread that's not about 9-11.

What is Rumsfelds plan?...

Their (Pentagoons) rapid response team will be on hair-trigger alert to dispute any tidbit of information that challenges the official storyline.

Sry but my BS detector is on full alert right now....

Number 2 on my ignore list

[edit on 24/6/2006 by ANOK]

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
I mean crypes its a company that you hire to debunk the truth! I am sure the government hires them too.

that is incorrect , it is a company you hire to counter a position / argument you DISAGREE with and / or raise the profile of your own Position and arguments

it may not be ethical , but i =n this case " truth " is irrelevant -- its ideology and opinion that counts

there is a BIG difference

a simpler less contersial exaple than 9/11 is cola drinks -- both major companies claim thiers is best -- and spend milions on pushing the message ` thiers is best ` -- by some mind bobbling means -- product placement ect is only the tip of the iceberg --

PS -- upon reflection the cola " argument " is weak -- as cola quality is subjective , but i hope it demonstrates my point .

the increased use of myspace , blogs , and even wikipedia [ several media orgs have been censured for using wiki for viral marketing ] are all exactly the same phenonemon

the tru7h ??? bah -- there is no spoon

why are you " sure" the govt hires them ?? -- just because not everyone agrees with your position , ergo they must be paid debunkers -- forbid the posibility you are actually wrong

logic is dead

APE OUT

Masisoar, sorry for sidetracking.

Has anyone from the Truth moevemnt considered the "hired contractors" are those who are presenting such theories as mininukes etc.?

Originally wanted to reply to ANOK as well but a) he won't read that anyway and b) he won't believe me no matter what I'd say.

Originally posted by tuccy
Has anyone from the Truth moevemnt considered the "hired contractors" are those who are presenting such theories as mininukes etc.?

Has anyone from the SFBCS movement considered that the hired opinions are working on both sides?

Agents provocateur battling a false enemy. The mind boggles...

Originally posted by Majic

To assume that “debunking” is the only kind of service these companies offer is to completely miss the point...

.

If they aren't very smart they will never ever seriously contribute, because they can't control it. imagine your 'plant' grows out of control. either they resort to simple regurgitation, which will make their posts appear stale and uninteresting or they try to go the flame-bait route, both of which are clearly visible.

there's a point where they have to start using obfuscation techniques, otherwise they're not doing their job.

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
SFBCS movement

Got me lost in the shortcuts I'm afraid

So far found only Special Forces Burst Communication System

As for hired opinions case, might well be possible But then I might assure you I speak for myself, here as well as on other boards

Originally posted by tuccy

Got me lost in the shortcuts I'm afraid

SFBCS = Sudden Freefall Building Collapse Syndrome.

This is of course different to the FOG, or "Foot of God" movement:

"Oh, what a web we weave when we practice to decieve."

"Persuasive efforts are labelled propagandistic when someone judges that the action which is the goal of the persuasive effort will be advantageous to the persuader but not in the best interests of the persuadee. There are no objective techniques for determining the best interests of the persons involved in a persuasive effort. Consequently the social psychologist does not decide whether or not a given effort is propagandistic. Propaganda comes into psychology as a judgment made by others. We can study propaganda as we can study good and evil. We don't make the judgments but we can study the phenomena so judged."-- Roger Brown, Words and Things (1958)


I quoted Roger Brown because, in this quote, he is able to sum up exactly what I wanted to say after reading this thread(but with a far greater degree of elequence and clarity than I could hope to muster)

It is a shame that people have to sell lies and sell truth. It is an effect of causality; I suppose.
It is as if those of us who are not trying to sell something have to become, a kind of, super-slooth(?sp). But even we have an agenda of our own even if it is just for the self-satisfaction of "knowing" something to be true/false.


good luck to us all, may we find whatever truths we seek.

Originally posted by Majic
In other words, it could be any of us.

Witch Hunt, indeed.

Originally posted by Majic
Verily verily I say unto thee: there is probably no way of knowing who is paid and who isn't...

That's right. Some are disagreeable for free...

Originally posted by Majic
Verily verily I say unto thee: there is probably no way of knowing who is paid and who isn't...

i can confirm i am not getting paid .... WHAAAA ..... i want my money

Originally posted by Loam
That's right. Some are disagreeable for free...

i will be disagreeable for food