Top 10 Alien Encounters Debuked

Originally posted by Access Denied

well the AF theory actually kind of makes sense when you consider AFAIK nobody said anything about bodies prior to that time right?

Maybe if you consider that to be true.

But ,I just cited two documents above that definitely pre-date the Air Forces use of Test Dummies in High Altitude drops ( 1954-1959) that specifically mention Military recovery of Disc's and Bodies from either New Mexico or Mexico. You'll also notice the "Three Foot Tall" and "Metallic cloth" reference in one of them dated March 22, 1950.

Remember- Mac Brazel didn't mention bodies in his initial report to the military. Only a debris field. And the original press release only mentioned the recovery of a flying disc. Which itself is odd since it was in so many pieces how could they know it was a disc?
It was only later that Johnson came out with his claim of the mystery nurse and the baby caskets. I would say to my mind the Roswell case is not a true 'alien' encounter.
Alien encounters to me would be cases like Travis Walton and the like.

Hey today is St. Johns day and the anniversary of a certain 'flying saucer' in the lovely state of Washington. That's right. The Arnold sighting. Happy Anniversary Ken.

Originally posted by Access Denied
All these documents "prove" is there were rumours of a recovery in NM floating around in 1950.

Exactly. And that undercuts the AF assertion that NM residents are not remembering three foot tall bodies , but only AF Test Dummies.

Originally posted by longhaircowboy


Remember- Mac Brazel didn't mention bodies in his initial report to the military. Only a debris field.

Brazel also told Frank Joyce that "They weren't Green".

That's a good point.
How long after Brazels first contact with the military did he utter that to Mr. Joyce?
Which interview are you referring to?
I wish you'd provided a little more info on that.
Thanks lost_shaman.

Originally posted by longhaircowboy

I wish you'd provided a little more info on that.

Well Walt Witmore picked up Mack Brazel July 7th 1947 and hid him out at his Home overnight and recorded an Interview with him there to be broadcast on KGFL. The next morning the Army Air Forces picked up Brazel and confiscated the Interview.

Two day's later when the AAF brought Mack into KGFL for another interview his story had completely changed , during a commercial Frank Joyce confronted Brazel about changing his story. That is when Joyce asked him about the bodies " Little Green Men" he had talked about at Walt Witmore's place and Brazel just said " They weren't Green".

Actually he answered my question quite nicely.
I was half way through my archives when I saw it so it saved me a bit of book thumbing. I couldn't recall the conversation(after all there were several) off the top of my head so I needed a little nudge.
Thanks lost_shaman.

Notice how the skeptics attack the least relevant witnesses.
And the Porter interview actually verifies the existence of the debris(doesn't make it a disc but it does confirm Brazels story and Marcels recollections).

What it all comes down to is the only true witness and the most believable is Mac Brazel.
And guess what? The folk at CSICOP can't debunk him no matter how hard they try.

My question would be which part of this describes a crashed Mogul.

Brazel said that he did not see it fall from the sky and did not see it before it was torn up, so he did not know the size or shape it might have been, but he thought it might have been about as large as a table top. The balloon which held it up, if that was how it worked, must have been about 12 feet long, he felt, measuring the distance by the size of the room in which he sat. The rubber was smoky gray in color and scattered over an area about 200 yards in diameter.

When the debris was gathered up the tinfoil, paper, tape, and sticks made a bundle about three feet long and 7 or 8 inches thick, while the rubber made a bundle about 18 or 20 inches long and about 8 inches thick. In all, he estimated, the entire lot would have weighed maybe five pounds.

None of it matches the Mogul trains. Not to mention none were lauched within a window that fits Brazels discovery.
And it doesn't fit the field size given by Marcel.

Marcel described a big field: debris ". . . about as far as you could see—three quarters [of a] mile long and two hundred to three hundred feet wide." It was "scattered all over—just like you’d explode something above the ground and [it would] just fall to the ground." The shortest pieces were "four or five inches. It was [as if it were from] something of some greater area that had been together."

www.cufos.org...
You'll also find this statement

One Mogul balloon train could account for only an extremely small fraction of the reported debris, even if Major Jesse Marcel had badly overestimated the field size.

Clearly, Project Mogul Flight 4 could not have been responsible for the debris found on the Foster ranch.

Note: the article is written by an engineer and contains some technical discussion.

Originally posted by Access Denied

And from there it hinges on whether or not you believe the claim he was lying in his original interview. His original story sounds 100% consistent with Mogul (which he'd never seen before) rather than a weather ballon (which he had seen before) and Marcel's actions sound 100% consistent with an inept security officer choosing a very stupid cover story :-)

A few things wrong here...

First I agree with LHC about his questioning you what exactly are you saying 100% fits with a MOGUL Balloon Train?

I don't see it , I don't see anything that matches and I've studied this in-depth.

As a matter of fact I'd say that none of the original descriptions even remotely resemble a MOGUL Balloon Train.

Also to say "100% consistent with Mogul" is a claim, and you just made it so I have to ask you to go right a head and back up that claim and again in your sited material I did not see it.

(I'm not being sarcastic here , if I had evidence that would support what your saying I'd say so.)



The other thing I would argue with is that "Cover's" and "Cover-up's" do not happen from the ground up with Junior Officers initiating them , they happen from the Top Down and people like Marcel only do as they are told.






[edit on 25-6-2006 by lost_shaman]

Yeah you closed it all right. Using terms like-
appears to, consistent with, similar to. Hardly definitive.
And then in the last quote the bolded text even states that flight 4 was well away from the area of Brazels find. 17 miles. That would make it the least likely candidate.
Got anything else or you just gonna keep quoting CSICOP irrelevancies.

Now aren't you the one who's swallowing the party line here? The reason the debunkers chose Roswell and the other 9 is because they are so easily debunked. The point I think you missed about Roswell is the original witness accounts were consistent with a weather balloon. It wasn't until Stanton resurrected the case 30 years later that the witnesses started describing things differently.

There were no "original" accounts, because the military told everyone to stay quiet, and they did, it was a military town. The accusation that everyone said things differently later would have to mean one thing....that the entire citizenry of Roswell got together and agreed on the same story, as numerous witnesses all gave the same descriptions of the debris, and it was NOTHING like a Mogul balloon. Nor would the military have gone to such extraordinary lengths, military cordons, rushed flights to Air Materiel Command, etc. for a routine Mogul recovery...never did before or since.

What's really sad here is there are better potential retrieval cases to look at than Roswell yet the skeptics and believers both choose to continue to focus on it. Is it any wonder anybody besides us takes this subject seriously?

What makes people not take it seriously are the real loons and hucksters like Meier, Adamski, and their lot, etc.

Roswell is still one case that stands up to the scrutiny of skeptics. To be honest, when I first investigated it, I expected to come out of it believing it was a sham. There were some very unreliable witnesses, fantastic tales, etc. However, upon investigation, such witnesses were the minority, not the majority, and the sheer number, ranks, and credibility assigned to the other witnesses were simply undeniable. Add to that the military's own actions, such as the ridiculous Mogul explanation, the even more ridiculous bodies from High Dive explanation, and other such nonsense, and you have a well demonstrated coverup at very high levels. Quite frankly, Mogul, an outdated program using off the shelf ordinary materials, was not worthy of such a coverup.

No problem.
If you get the time though, please read through this...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I'd be curious to hear your skeptical arguments after doing so. After all, I may need to go into more detail on certain points. I'm trying to understand what points make Roswell fall apart for you.

Even though my engineer pretty much demolished Moore I'll through a few more aces down.
Here's an excellent article by David Rudiak that shows just how much hooey you'd have to buy to fall for Prof. Moores assumptions.
roswellproof.homestead.com...

The main problem, as Moore himself readily admits in his book, is that there is no surviving flight data on Flight #4 -- no altitude data, no ground trajectory, no launch time, etc. There is also very little weather data on which to base any sort of prediction. With many possible variables and little or no solid data to ground them in reality, it is possible to create almost any trajectory one likes.

That's a good thing to keep in mind when reviewing Moores story.
Also see:
www.v-j-enterprises.com...
for Stan Friedmans report.
And:
www.cseti.org...
A list of possible crashes. Scroll down to the 1947 entries and see which ones fit Mogul descents.
Or maybe we could buy into Nick Redferns NEPA project using a Horton wing and the infamous Japanese guinea pigs.

Originally posted by Access Denied

The debris Brazel picked up--and which was later taken to Fort Worth, Texas, for inspection by Brigadier General Roger Ramey, the Air Force commander there--matches NYU Flight 4 in several different ways. Some of the debris consisted of patches of a smelly, smoky gray, rubber-like material, which is consistent with the neoprene balloons used in NYU Flight 4. Much of the Roswell debris--sticks, metallic paper, and strangely marked tape--is similar to material used for the radar reflectors. When Warrant Officer Irving Newton saw the debris in General Ramey's office, he recognized it as pieces of a radar target. Moore points out that the Ramey photographs show parts of more than one reflector; Flight 4 contained three Signal Corps ML-307B RAWIN targets.

Access Denied,

You'll notice that there is only enough material on Brig. Gen. Ramey's Office Floor to represent one RAWIN Target not Three.

You'll notice that even after close inspection of the photo's from Brig. Gen. Ramey's Office that there is no "Flowery Tape" visible on the torn apart RAWIN .

Warrant Officer Irving Newton's Identification of a RADAR Target actually means nothing, when you consider that the next Day there was a Moblie RADAR Unit in Ft. Worth Launching RAWIN Targets and Neoprene Balloons for the Press. Even though the Sceptics would have us believe that only MOGUL carried these and therefore a RAWIN could have only come from the Debris Field on the Foster Ranch. www.roswellproof.com...

Atmostpheric physicist Charles B. Moore displays a radar reflector similar to those carried aloft on trains of balloons in Project Mogul experiments he helped launch from Alamogordo Army Air Field in New Mexico in June and early July 1947. New York University Flight #4 carried three of these reflectors and before being lost was tracked to within 17 miles of the spot where rancher Mac Brazel later recovered debris that prompted the famous "Roswell Incident" case.

Case closed in my book ;-)

All that is going on here is they've taken Charles Moores Memories and stated them as Fact. That hardly constitutes closing the Case in my Book.





[edit on 25-6-2006 by lost_shaman]

That top 10 site is weak. It doesn't even discuss the subjects, just pastes them thinly. See also military-industrial "complex."

And therein lies the problem. These so called skeptics/debunkers use phrases like- appear to be, similar to, consistent with. They never present any irrefutable evidence that would cause one to consider their alternative.
If someone came to you and said "It looked like ___(fill in the blank)__."
Would you assume it was indeed a __(fill in the blank)__. Or would you want a bit more specific info?
When they can say without doubt that yes that is indeed a __(fill in the blank)__. And provide some real evidence/proof then Ok I'm there.

why are we even talking about this. we all know nasa an space.com arnt gonna tell us the truth. there gonna tell a lie thats sound good enough that the rest of the ignorant world with take as the truth

Access Denied,

The problem here is that the MOGUL hypothesis doesn't fly. For one thing all MOGUL flights even the failures are recorded in the NYU records and there is no record of a MOGUL Flight # 4.

NYU records even show the flights that were total failures like one that was only airborne for 16 mins, and yet according to Charles Moore Flight # 4 was in the Air longer than any other MOGUL Flight.

Also nothing used to make a MOGUL train was classified only its mission was classified and not any of the materials used to make a MOGUL Train.

And none of the witnesses described anything like or similar to a MOGUL train.

Another thing to consider is that Mack Brazel said that the night before he found the Wreckage he heard a very loud explosion that he thought must have been some "freak thunder" and we know that MOGUL Trains do not explode.

And the witnesses to the debris field descibed that it looked like something exploded in the air.

[edit on 28-6-2006 by lost_shaman]

Originally posted by Access Denied
Believe want you want to believe and go ahead and analyze it to death but this more than anything should speak volumes about the reality of the situation... I think you're all gving the Air Force way too much credit... more than they give themselves

Actually I don't give the U.S. Air Force very much credit here at all.

As a matter of fact I've already cited two records from the period for you on this thread that are in direct conflict with the passage you just quoted from Col. Richard Weaver.

All the records, however, indicated that the focus of concern was not on aliens, hostile or otherwise, but on the Soviet Union.

ufologie.net...

209.132.68.98...


What about Ruppelt telling in his book " The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects" that in Sep. 1947 the TOP SECRET edition of the "Estimate of the Situation" was that these UFOs were E.T. Craft and Probes?
ufologie.net...

Is Col. Weaver just straight out lying ?


How do you explain the obvious Conflict of Interest with Charles Moore?

I mean all he is asked to do is "remember" ( only because all known MOGUL trains have been excluded BTW ) a non-existent MOGUL train and he gets to become the Hero of his favorite Sceptical organization New Mexicans for Science and Reason ( NMSR ).

Not to mention his old , and possibly any new , Higher-ups at the U.S.A.F.


And you also must explain why it is that Col. Trakowski ( Second witness only to Charles Moore in the U.S.A.F.'s "The Roswell incident:Case Closed" ) submitted a report to Project Grudge ,at the time , that said No MOGUL Balloons had been responsible for any UFO reports. And of course Col. Trakowski who was involved with MOGUL would have known if Roswell had been caused by a MOGUL Train, he was there.




[edit on 29-6-2006 by lost_shaman]