Fun and games with UK's big brother

I think the main issue here is fear. Thats what terrorism is all about right? Instilling fear in order to get your way? When ever something bad happens, the general populace will look for signs in the future pretaining to what caused that bad thing to happen. This brings many to judge a group of people as a whole, guilty by association, how ever wrong it may be. When the Columbine shootings happened, people gave me weird looks in school all the time (durring winter) because I wore a trenchcoat. Ban on pittbulls? A few stories about pittbulls attacking kids and people, then all pitbulls get a target on their head. It's in human nature to look for signs in things when they've seen/heard about said things in the past. I know that if I was at the beach, saw the tide go way out, that I'd be thinking Tsunami. All in all, for me, when it comes to people, I never judge a book by it's cover. However not everyone does that, we're all different. We're affraid of being tricked and we're afraid of the consequences when we are tricked. Quite a few try to look at all the aspects of the issue at hand, denying ignorance if you will. I'm lost on thought now and feel I'm makeing no sense, but anyway, thank you for your post fulcanelli. The hampster in my head is running so fast it might have a heart attack.

[edit on 20-6-2006 by Slash]

Originally posted by Bach927
We need to come together and find ways to make this world a better place.

Too true

If people want to accept the status quo and blindly think 'nothing wrong here, i'm fine' then so be it but that won't change a goddamn thing.

People need to agree that we all have differences but at the end of the day we all have SIMILARITIES - we all want peace and freedom. Together we need to resist the common enemy - control over the many by the few


[edit on 20/6/2006 by alienanderson]

Phew, another typically nerve wracking England match!

Let me get this straight, as I've said it once before in response to claims that I hate my country - I LOVE THIS COUNTRY, I love my friends here, and I hold dear to my heart the ideal that freedom is the true human condition, and this is precisely why I CARE about these issues.

And as far as "going somewhere else" is concerned, that in fact (as I have stated previously) IS my intention because despite the fact that more and more people are waking up to what's happening, it's my belief that the rate at which they are realising the nightmarish implications of the surveillance society being constructed around them (and the erosion of their civil and human rights concomitant to that) cannot in my view keep up with the incredible and multi-faceted campaign being made by certain cabals within the governement, media and financial sectors to impose this prison-like existence on not only the citizens of the UK but eventually EVERY HUMAN BEING. Some I believe call this the "New World Order", and this is part of the reason I have considered making a life for myself elsewhere - however, before I admit defeat and find somewhere else to go I will fight tooth and nail as I have done for over a decade to educate myself and others as to what's happening and use my power of civil disobedience and direct my intelligence towards undermining this push by the elites in as effective a manner as I can, and while doing so engineer for myself and my family the conditions and means whereby we may find freedom and peace for ourselves elsewhere if such cannot be achieved here. I sincerely hope that this will not be necessary, as having spent 25 of my 28 years here this is in every sense my home, but my most brutally realistic assessment of the current state of play here demands that I have a "plan B" - anyone who shares my views would be well advised to do the same.

However, part of the problem is also that, as far as I have been able to determine, this is a transnational push towards an overarching world government, and is being perpetrated by people who seem to show no allegiance to any human ideal, far less to national and cultural boundaries - in the face of this, where is one to go to find freedom? Even if I was to find a nice secluded corner of the world in which to live out the rest of my days in peace. the chances are the tentacles of this monster will eventually make their slimy inhuman presence felt there too.

No, far better to fight it with every fibre of my mind and body while I am still free to do so, and my character is such that my own humble subversions of this campaign of dehumanisation and enslavement will most likely take the forms that will amuse me most. Why not? It's not all doom and gloom, you know. I truly believe that, as Robert Anton wilson has so succinctly put it, "communication is only possible between equals" - the higher up the corridors of power a person rises, the more they are surrounded by "yes men" and the more divorced from the ACTUAL realities they become - and with the logarithmic acceleration of information and it's inexorable spread among the masses, I believe it is only a matter of time before the architects of this most recent push towards ownership of the human race will do what all their predecessors have done in their ignorance of this principle - awaken the slumbering dragon of mass dissent, and watch their empire evaporate like the fevered dream it has always been.

The question is, what level of suffering will humanity endure before this happens, and what will be the conditions left after the deserving elites are forced not unquietly into that dark night?

Fulcanelli

I Agree with much thats been said here,

britan is fast becoming the most big brotherish state in the world you would be suprised as to how many times a day and in what ways your deatails are noted and deatails of what you have done each day is colated and collected.

and they even tell u about it, theres a new car advert here that says "that you are caught on camara 2000 times a day why not give them something to watch?"

i feel that the police still have a lot of problems with racisim in this country 20 + years after the steven lawrence case.

it seems that blair can get away with what ever he wants at the moment we dont have a good opposition and also now the country doesnt care caus the world cup is on, he could go on tv and annonce he likes to eat babies and no one would care atm

Originally posted by Slash
I think the main issue here is fear. Thats what terrorism is all about right? Instilling fear in order to get your way?

Too right, slash - more people should read Hegel and Machiavelli and they might arrive at a better understanding of the REAL motivations behind terrorism and why it is not at all an untenable view that governments engage in it, to say nothing of the fact the evidence of state sponsored terrorism is just too widespread and damning to be ignored.

Originally posted by Eternal_Question
and they even tell u about it, theres a new car advert here that says "that you are caught on camara 2000 times a day why not give them something to watch?"

Definitely a point that needs to be discussed further - the tactics being used through the media to condition the public to accept intrusive surveillance are truly sickening. Almost as sickening as the dumbing down and depoliticisation of the public on these issues as the set-up to sell these ideas. I'm sure that much of thse advertising campaigns are not intended expressly to be as such, but a study of the editorial processes of major media organisations and the means by which control can be exerted through them towards these ends by the owners of such organisations (who often have GLARING conflicts of interest at the very least and outright corruption on average) shows how indirect pressure can be brought to bear through media to sell this conditioning en masse.

Another point that I believe falls neatly in here is the fact that in the area of entertainment in particular, the typically voyeurish inclinations of the UK public have been moulded cleverly over the last few years into outright acceptance of surveillance through the laughably named "reality TV shows." The prime example? BIG BROTHER! Now THAT's Orwellian social engineering in action, and though it amounts to speculation, I believe that it would be naive in the EXTREME not to consider machinations of agencies like the Tavistock institute (MI4) to be at work here, who admittedly engage in subtle social engineering through indirect influence in the media and education (among other modes of manipulation). The stakes are far too high NOT for them to be involved, and the timing is far too convenient.

Any thoughts on this?

Fulcanelli

Hi and welcome Fucannelli

On the 77 op,there is a telling photo of the train in the tunnel,after the bomb,and you can clearly see the blast hole in the floor.The edges of the floor are all pushed upwards,consistent with an explosion under the floor or outside.So not in a rucksack inside the train then.
Secondly,it was reported on sky/bbc that the bombs were remotley detonated by mobile phones(sky/bbc quickly changed this when it didn`t fit the suicide bomber scam).Now maybe i`m being silly but isn`t it a whole lot of extra hassle to go to the trouble of making the bombs phone controlable if you`re just going to manually detonate(ie suicide)?Wouldn`t some bare wires in the pocket do the trick?This leads me to believe someone else remotely detonated them.Did these guys KNOW they were carrying bombs?Or were they framed patsys?
Finally it was also reported on sky/bbc that the explosives were military...then quickly changed/omitted/hushed up.
The whole episode stinks and theres alot more than what i`ve mentioned above.I wonder why Blair is not allowing an independent inquiry...
I agree with your views on London being oppressive,but its not just London.The whole country is starting to go surveillance/tracking crazy.
Some people here were telling you to find somewhere better to live.Any suggestions?Its just that i have considered living overseas to escape this creeping totalitarian atmosphere-but this atmoshpere seems global:Europe/middle east/USA/AUS...all gearing up for the fourth reich.

Fight the evil facsist ID card.
Demand an inquiry into 77.

Good First Post bro.

Phew.. We've covered alot of ground here with alot of great posts.
Although to be frank the point to this thread is pretty blunt.

I live and work in London, so am under the same scrutiny as every other person that comes within a 40 mile radius of our capital.

The stakes are far too high NOT for them to be involved

Well, Exactly...

If this, or any other (give or take) government wanted to know where you are, what you're doing or saying to other people on the phone then they will, one way or another. Be it by your credit card, mobile phone, some guy in a trench coat or your biometrically encoded passport.
If they want to take photos of me crossing the street or getting on a tube.. FINE.... GOOD..., the technology they are employing to do this is frankly mind blowing and a credit to places like UCL (who obviously are sponsored to some degree by arms manufacturers, who wants idiots designing our defence systems?).
But these systems are on our streets and in public places, they are not in our homes (well, not mine).

George Orwell described a city where your "thoughts" were monitored and acted upon, but as of right now I can think and say whatever the hell I want, as can anyone else.
THAT is the right I will defend to my death.

Big Brother IS alive and well but for the time being he is on our side.

Originally posted by Silcone Synapse

On the 77 op,there is a telling photo of the train in the tunnel,after the bomb,and you can clearly see the blast hole in the floor.The edges of the floor are all pushed upwards,consistent with an explosion under the floor or outside.So not in a rucksack inside the train then.

Well put, synapse, and thanks for your support - added to this there were the numerous eyewitness reports from survivors of the explosions who had been within the carriages themselves indicating that the bombs were indeed under the trains - Bruce Lait, a dance instructor from Cambridge, and his partner were practically sitting next to where there was an explosion, and reported to the cambridge news paper I believe that he saw the metal of the floor of the carriage bent upwards, as if the bomb was beneath the traib. This was also attested to by numerous others, among whom there were several who were present in the carriages who assert that they so NO ASIAN LOOKING MEN, with or without the rucksacks, on the carriages before the explosions went off.

Collectively, there are so many points on which the official theory of the events fail miserably that it can be confidently asserted that there is far, far more than meets the eye here. As I have already said, I plan to try to put as many arguments together as I can with supporting evidence in a post that summarises why the official BS is just that - BS. May well have to be a rather long and involved post, by the looks of things!

The media coverup was also SO transparently kicked into action immediately after the events, indicated by the flip-flopping from one version of the events to another completely incompatible with the foregoing, several times in the course of the first 48 hours after the events. And, as with so many other parallels with september 11th, there was a flood of so-called "experts" on the media authoritatively stating that Al-Qaeda was the culprit - one case in particular had me on my feet SCREAMING obscenities at the television when an expert in "international relations" was called into a BBC report to give their views with a caption identifying them only as being from the - wait for it - COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS! The very idea that such a person can be called upon to discuss the geopolitical implications of such an event on a national TV news broadcast and remain impartial I consider to be both a testament to the level of complete ignorance in the UK about organisations like the CFR and an insult to the intelligence of those of us who do. Added to this were the scores of "counter-terrorism" experts exponding the same views from the likes of Kroll Associates, the Rand corporation and others known to be riddled with links to intelligence services, all with no evidence to support their claims whatsoever.

This is a defining event in the UK's history, and seems all but forgotten in the mainstream media now that its purpose of defining the enemy has been served, regardless of the questions looming over it all - the media have now shifted gears falling into lockstep behind the government on every issue, and the media-ted masses are not far behind.

Fulcanelli

I'm very interested to hear the evidence from the dance instructor who was sat close enough to the blast to see the floor cave inwards.

We had been well entrenched/embroiled in Iraq for three years (far longer than the government or public had hoped) when the bombs went off on 7/7/05 what do you think would be the point of:

This is a defining event in the UK's history, and seems all but forgotten in the mainstream media now that its purpose of defining the enemy has been served, regardless of the questions looming over it all - the media have now shifted gears falling into lockstep behind the government on every issue, and the media-ted masses are not far behind.

Defining the enemy?

(edited 'cos im an idiot)

[edit on 20-6-2006 by myowncrusade]

Fulcanelli, I've joined to give you some support after months of just browsing.

Fulcanelli is entitled to moan/gripe about any aspect of English life without people telling him to move if he doesn't like it.

It smacks of "go back to where you came from" racism.

I'm white, English, Londoner. If I want to moan about the Big Brother state, I will. And everyone else is entitled to moan about it to. Regatdless of where their parents happen to come from.

as for associating Muslims with terrorism...read your history books. The 70s 80s and 90s were full of terrorist acts carried out by Non-Muslim Europeans.

Hey myowncrusade,

Originally posted by myowncrusade

George Orwell described a city where your "thoughts" were monitored and acted upon, but as of right now I can think and say whatever the hell I want, as can anyone else.
THAT is the right I will defend to my death.

Big Brother IS alive and well but for the time being he is on our side.

I'd have to disagree with you there. Our thoughts are monitored and controlled, albeit indirectly by a variety of means including but not restricted to techniques and systems tied into the growing surveillance grid (increasingly so by the minute), such psychological profiling and datamining, and behavioural analysis is possible and AVAILABLE using current technology when applied to video footage - our thoughts and speech are being more and more restriced by "hate crime" laws and ancillary legislation, so increasingly, you CANNOT simply say what you want, especially if you happen to fit into specific social or ethnic classes under the most scrutiny. An example I have already mentioned is the detailed and highly advanced profiling of individuals done by sister intelligence services to MI5/MI6 such as MI4 (this country's "social engineers", who happen to be the foremost such agency in the world) and the NSA, this profiling costing on average $50,000 dollars per individual profiled, and being done on the basis of flagged keywords in their emails and/or mobile/landline phone calls intercepted in this country by the largest wide-band spy station on Earth located at Menwith hill in Yorkshire.

Also, it's not simply the surveillance itself that bothers me - its the complete lack of public oversight,the total innaccountability to the public and the extreme compartmentalisation such agencies have, which makes them ideal tools for the strangling of dissenting voices as well as the empirical invasion of our privacy they represent.

And as far as being free in your own home is concerned, I agree that this will be the last bastion of privacy to fall, although it's happening as we speak through the digitalisation of TV (what you watch is being watched), the erosion of internet neutrality and privacy, the increasingly free sale of personal financial and other details between corporations and governent agencies, and so on.

I wish I could share your optimism, my friend, and for all our sakes I hope I'm just being paranoid, but the facts speak volumes to me, and I don't like what they say.

Fulcanelli

hey myowncrsade, here is a link to Bruce Lait's testimony:

www.cambridge-news.co.uk...

and here is the relevant quote:

"'The policeman said 'mind that hole, that's where the bomb was'. The metal was pushed upwards as if the bomb was underneath the train. They seem to think the bomb was left in a bag, but I don't remember anybody being where the bomb was, or any bag"

There are others around too (if I remember correctly, a Guardian correspondent attested to having seen the same thing), and I'll include them in my piece on the 7/7 event when I get around to writing it, but this is a good start.

Fulcanelli

oh, and the point of "defining the enemy" is all part and parcel of the Hegelian nature of these kinds of psy-ops. I believe it has been summarised in a number of documentaries on 9/11 etc. as being "Problem, reaction, solution" ("Thesis, antithesis, synthesis" as Hegel put it). The Hegelian dialectic basically refers to a means of coaxing an unwilling population into adopting a certain attitude by deception in order to allow easier implementation of what would otherwise be an unpopular policy (war, for example), and revolves around the following;

1) YOU, the government, covertly create a PROBLEMthat is designed to engender a visceral REACTION in the populace, which puts them in the correct psychological and sociological frame to accept...

2) ...the SOLUTION that you offer, which in itself is the policy you originally wanted them to support.

Thsi tactic has been used time and again in history and very successfully, and appears to be the modus operandi used on psy-ops such as 9/11 and 7/7

Fulcanelli

Any hoot, it seems that at least today we have made some inroads into dicussion on this thread - long may it continue. I'm off to bed now for a few z's. G'night all, and hopefully see y'all on the morrow.

Fulcanelli

Hey Fu, Thanks for the replies and link.

I totally agree with 90% of what you say but..... ahh man its too late to get into a long rambling post but I'm wearing a T-shirt that covers most of my beliefs; it say's "Drink For England.....think for yourself"

I'll construct a more elaborate reply tomorrow. nn

hehehe one more thing; I believe our trans atlantic cousins call this:

I believe it has been summarised in a number of documentaries on 9/11 etc. as being "Problem, reaction, solution" ("Thesis, antithesis, synthesis" as Hegel put it). The Hegelian dialectic basically refers to a means of coaxing an unwilling population into adopting a certain attitude by deception in order to allow easier implementation of what would otherwise be an unpopular policy (war, for example), and revolves around the following;

a "False Flag" although I prefer your description.

They also like talking about "straw men" but I'm still not sure what the hell one of those is and if I should be afraid of them ;-)

[edit on 20-6-2006 by myowncrusade]

G'mornin all,

myown crusade - lol love the shirt! As I understand it, a "false flag operation" is specifically a covert op conducted with the purpose of directing blame towards another innocent party and as such is the central part of the overall Hegelian system mentioned.

As far as "straw men" goes, I believe that this is a reference to the use of easily disproven and fallacious, often ridiculous statements and arguments used alongside valid information in order to discredit the overall validity of what has been said - an example here would be if I wrote a piece detailing the evidence against the official 7/7 story with valid and supportable arguments but also including, for example, reference to the fact that Tony Blair being an alleged 33rd degree Knight Of Malta (and by extension a demonologist and a worshipper of malevolent beings) being the prime motive for his involvement in the attacks, or that he had been told to do so by the "Secret Chiefs" of freemasonry who are alien/mystical beings communicating with him on the astral plane; these assertions may or may not be true but are certainly extremely difficult to prove, and therefore could easily invite ridicule and therefore detract heavily from the percieved validity of the facts presented in my case.

Another example is if in the same radio programme a host invites a well informed and articulate proponent of the theory of government sponsored terrorism to talk about, say, 9/11, presenting fact after fact to powerfully argue his case, and then immediately following this with a guest who claims he has been abducted by alien beings from the Sirius star system to talk about his experiences; of course, he may well be telling the truth, but this cannot be PROVEN with any ease, and in the mind of the skeptic on both issues it has invalidated the foregoing content and will prompt him to change the radio station. In such a case, the radio talk show staff may well not be aware that they are using the straw man, but they are nonetheless.

The straw man argument is a favourite of COINTELPRO type counter-intelligence operations, especially now that such operations extend the work of their operatives into the so-called "truth movement" with the information fallout from events like 9/11 and 7/7 on the internet requiring some form of management by these agencies and the culprits buried within them.

Fulcanelli

Honesty , Integrity and Vicious Circles

fulcanelli

thank you for that tirade against me , you claim misrepresentation and attacks were made against you , when none were , and your response is to launch your own smear campaign ….. bravo , integrity zero .

your track record of “ debate “ in this thread is laughable , you just move from one argument to the next , never actually answering any challenge .

an example is the stock portfolio of UCL which you claim is engaged in “ arms dealing “

you have provided no evidence , despite challenges to do so , why is that ?

PS – owning stocks in defence contractors , does NOT constitute “ arms dealing “ , at least not in the real world .

You claim that you [ to paraphrase ] ` end your phone calls with a string of “ provocative “ security sensitive words ` why ?? what do you hope to achieve by that ?

You deliberately [ knowing full well what you were doing ] embark on actions that will raise your profile in security services eyes , and think this achieves ? … what exactly ?? apart from making you a target and diverting resources from other potentially more important investigations

Do you WANT a future terrorist incident to succeed because the security services were distracted , filtering out your childishness ???

Do you WANT the security services to kick your doors in at o4:30 then you can achieve martyr status ??

Your actions on the tube are not just a bearded middle eastern man with a Bergen – they are a cynical and calculated ploy , using timing , psychology and exaggerated motions to DELIBERATLY sow the impression in witnesses minds that your actions are sinister

Instead of playing silly buggers , try building bridges to other communities and faiths , engaging in outreach and education projects . POSITIVE actions that actually make a difference .

Have you EVER even attempted any of these strategies ??

And you question the honesty and integrity of ATS members who disagree with you ?? you sir are a danmed hypocrite !!!!

Then have the temerity to claim that you are stereotyped – please look up the concept of “ a vicious circle “ you bring suspicion on your self deliberately , then claim the suspicion is evidence of persecution …. Priceless

You sir are your own worst enemy , and worse you are deliberately setting out to turn others against not only yourself , but the rest of your community ….. what a hero

APE OUT

Great thread. LOVE the point about Big Brother the TV show being used to soften us up for the reality of surveillance.

You mentioned David Shayler earlier on. I saw him speak last year and he was adamant that 7/7 was a false flag op run by the security services. For those reading who think that the West has nothing to do with terrorism: Shayler was a whistleblower who came to prominence for revealing that - I'm going to put this in bold here -

MI6 paid AlQaeda £100,000 to assassinate Colonel Gadaffi -

which mission they cocked up, killing 3 innocent people.

He came across as a bit of a dick, actually, very arrogant about what he knows... but he did know about the AQ thing and the unacknowledged evidence about 7/7 suggests he's right there too.

As far as Western involvement with terrorism goes, there's also a lot of evidence to suggest that many, many people knew that there was a bomb aboard the Lockerbie flight but that it was allowed to fly anyway. A friend of mine was actually on that plane. He flew from Frankfurt to Heathrow sitting next to a US soldier who was pale, sweating, and terrified because he'd heard rumours that there was a bomb on the plane but this was the flight he'd been assigned to go on leave so he didn't have much choice. If an ordinary US soldier had heard about that, how many others must have known? Then there was plenty of talk from the Scottish police about US officials (CIA?) turning up VERY quickly at the scene and searching the wreckage, even removing items from the crime scene.

But the West doesn't support terrorism. OH no...

Originally posted by ignorant_ape

your track record of “ debate “ in this thread is laughable , you just move from one argument to the next , never actually answering any challenge .

an example is the stock portfolio of UCL which you claim is engaged in “ arms dealing “

you have provided no evidence , despite challenges to do so , why is that ?

PS – owning stocks in defence contractors , does NOT constitute “ arms dealing “ , at least not in the real world .

Want an example of misrepresentation, ape? how about the above, where you claim I have accused UCL of arms dealing. Why not quote what I ACTUALLY said? Here it is for you;

Originally posted by fulcanelli
...I did a little digging and found that many of the member universities of the University Of London invest in the international arms industry, UCL (my university) being one of the heaviest investors.

Get that? I said they INVEST IN the arms trade, I never claimed they DEAL arms.

As far as the rest of yor objections go;

Originally posted by ignorant_ape

You claim that you [ to paraphrase ] ` end your phone calls with a string of “ provocative “ security sensitive words ` why ?? what do you hope to achieve by that ?

You deliberately [ knowing full well what you were doing ] embark on actions that will raise your profile in security services eyes , and think this achieves ? … what exactly ?? apart from making you a target and diverting resources from other potentially more important investigations

Do you WANT a future terrorist incident to succeed because the security services were distracted , filtering out your childishness ???

Do you WANT the security services to kick your doors in at o4:30 then you can achieve martyr status ??

Your actions on the tube are not just a bearded middle eastern man with a Bergen – they are a cynical and calculated ploy , using timing , psychology and exaggerated motions to DELIBERATLY sow the impression in witnesses minds that your actions are sinister

Instead of playing silly buggers , try building bridges to other communities and faiths , engaging in outreach and education projects . POSITIVE actions that actually make a difference .

Have you EVER even attempted any of these strategies ??

And you question the honesty and integrity of ATS members who disagree with you ?? you sir are a danmed hypocrite !!!!

And here are my rebuttals, point by point;

1) Never mind the comment being taken entirely out of its humorous context, I feel that the current system (ECHELON included) of surveillance constitutes an illegitimate invasion of my privacy and is entirely open to abuse by the unaccountable intelligence agencies that have been proven to have more than a part to play in conducting terrorism themselves, and as such I will exercise my right of civil disobedience to the extent that I will subvert it again and again by using the string of keywords mentioned - what do I hope to achieve? I hope to place myself into that portion of humanity that recognises these systems for what they are and fights for their removal. As I said, if everyone did this, these systems would not long survive.
And believe me, this is but the tip of the iceberg when it comes to my own personal resistance - I have protested against this many times both outside the perimeter fences of such installations and elsewhere, and will continue to do so, since I consider this my right AND MY OBLIGATION as a free man.

2)If by "You deliberately [ knowing full well what you were doing ] embark on actions that will raise your profile in security services eyes" you mean I go to work every day on the tube with a beard and a rucksack, then yes, that is precisely what I am doing - perhaps you would like to explain for the benefit of all here exactly what is wrong in that? If by this you mean my actions on the 'phone, I refer you to point 1.

(continued...)

3) I have NO FEAR of the intelligence services, since I am not so stupid as to think that anyone these days who engages in activism of ANY kind in this country on the issues I have raised has not been profiled heavily - I am sure there is a file somewhere with my name on it. However, it happens to be my belief that if you do put up resistance, this is inevitable and therefore I will not impede myself with pointless fears. It is also my belief that a large part of the success of any totalitarian regime or plan to put one in place hinges on the feeling of FEAR and POWERLESSNESS engendered in the population. I have no such impediments, and it is my belief that if people stopped being afraid and empowered themselves and others by education it would be a whole lot more difficult for abuses of power to take place. In my own case, there are hundreds of my friends and relatives and acquaintances who are very well aware of my views because I have been extremely vocal about them for years - such people, I assure you, are far harder to "disappear" than those who fume silently behind the scenes in full knowledge of what is going on but are too fearful to speak out. The more public you have been with your views and the better you can argue them and the wider your audience has been, the bigger the presence THEY would have to remove from society and the harder it would be for them. And no, of course I do not wish the intelligence services to kick my door in at 4.30am or at any other time, and your allusion to my wanting this to happen to achieve "martyr" status is SO absurd in the light of what I have already said in previous posts that it requires no further dignification by reply.

4) To your comment "try building bridges to other communities and faiths , engaging in outreach and education projects . POSITIVE actions that actually make a difference. Have you EVER even attempted any of these strategies ??" I would say that my having BEEN vocal about these issues, my own personal forays into activism and my discussing these issues here with you and others constitutes "outreach and education" - I'm not quite sure what you mean by building bridges with people of other communities and faiths, since I mentioned clearly in my very first post in this thread that I myself am NOT Muslim. I have no prejudice at all towards any person on the basis of religion or colour or belief, and in fact have spent some considerable time studying other faiths (more specifically, their esoteric philosophies, which happens to be an interest I have), and count amongst my friends AND relatives people of many different religions and cultures. Your assume far too much, my friend. Have a look at my signature - who am I quoting? Would the closed-minded person you are attempting so futilely to portray me as quote the Buddha as his signature?

This discussion is actually getting somewhere - please don't try to sidetrack it, it's getting really old now, and I'd far rather spend my time writing replies to people who have something other to contribute than personal attacks claiming hypocrisy with no basis.

Fulcanelli

[edit on 21-6-2006 by fulcanelli]