Fun and games with UK's big brother

How dare you accuse me of being a racist. Mods please have a word with this guy.

There's one person on here who's demonstrating a closed / blinkered mind and it ain't me.

@ ISJ

Oh dear, yet another one of you who believes I've done something wrong by being brown, bearded and having a bag on a train. Once again, READ what I have written.

And the allusions to my relatives are pathetically weak - neither myself nor any of them have EVER claimed any form of state benefits, not that that is a legitimate argument any civilised person would use.

The national ID card is just part of the overall push for the surveillance society - if you think it's all over as far as that's concerned, then you are incredibly naive.

As for terrorism, let me start you on a little homework assignment to correct that fallacy - your intelligence services (mainly the CIA and MI6) practically CREATED islamic fundamentalism in the late 1970's (after a directive to the CIA was signed by Pres. Jimmy Carter) and provided not only funding, but A NEW, RADICAL IDEOLOGY to the fledgling (then called the Mujahideen) "Jihad". These agencies continue to fund and orchestrate terrorism worldwide via intermediaries such as the pakistani ISI and others. By way of example, the supposed mastermind behind the 7/7 attacks, Harun Rashid Aswat, was arrested in Rome, released, then arrested again and remanded to the custody of the Justice Department in the US where it quickly became clear that he was actually a MI6 ASSET, explaining in part why the British intelligence service DECLINED to have him extradited to the UK. Where does that fit in with your black and white assessments of the Islamic nature of terrorism?

Your views on the origins of terrorism belie the mediocre level of your understanding of it's history and origins - as does the comments to the effect that Muslims are targeted by the police because terrorists are 99% muslim (how was that particular figure arrived at, btw? what are your sources?). Get educated, stop making yourself look stupid, and SPEAK TO THE FACTS.

Fulcanelli

Oh dear, you clearly have not read and understood the rule of ATS nor do you understand or see the irony of your posts nor have you clearly read or understood my post.

Theres a pattern here somewhere, can't quite put my finger on it.....

as for 99% issue, there is no source, there is no actual data, but it is a valid point, again something you have not read nor understood clearly.

I so want to add you to my ignore list, but i cannot, for the reason i want to hear what you have to say, but please lets not resort to personal attacks or belittling the "non-believers" as this just goes to show that you cannot hold a sensible discussion on a topic you yourself have raised and feel passionate about, without loosing all forms of etiqutte, common sense, free speech, free thinking, or respect of another person's views.

Originally posted by ISJ
Oh dear, you clearly have not read and understood the rule of ATS nor do you understand or see the irony of your posts nor have you clearly read or understood my post.

Theres a pattern here somewhere, can't quite put my finger on it.....

as for 99% issue, there is no source, there is no actual data, but it is a valid point, again something you have not read nor understood clearly.

I so want to add you to my ignore list, but i cannot, for the reason i want to hear what you have to say, but please lets not resort to personal attacks or belittling the "non-believers" as this just goes to show that you cannot hold a sensible discussion on a topic you yourself have raised and feel passionate about, without loosing all forms of etiqutte, common sense, free speech, free thinking, or respect of another person's views.

I invite any moderator to inspect this thread to find any infraction of the rules and regs by myself - if they can, I will apologise to all concerned for such infraction, but I doubt it, since I HAVE read the rules and regs and judging from the inability of both yourself and strangerous to distinguish between what I have said and what you seem to have read falsely into what I have written, I can read a whole lot better than you.

Also, perhaps you'd like to explain how any of us can take ANYTHING you say seriously when you feel you can quote a figure of 99% with no source or actual data, and STILL claim it is a valid point?

And perhaps you'd like to scroll back through this thread and locate for me where I have made a personal attack? I remind you that it was strangerous and yourself who began by making all sorts of incorrect assumptions about me that I have had to set you straight on, and have all but branded YOURSELVES crypto-racist at the very least, and here's how, since you clearly need the obvious explained again...

Your source of irritation, as far as i can tell, has been the fact that I not only clearly have a view of my government antithetical to yours and have the ability to justify it, but more importantly to you it would seem, I have

a) a brown face,

b) a beard ,

c) and a bag on the underground and

d) reached into my bag (often pulling out only a bottle of water or some such non-explosive device). I would like you to quote where I have described any other action.

Now since you have all variously described my act as a "sick" imitation of a suicide bomber, it can be concluded by logic that you all consider anyone brown, wearing a bag and a beard a suicide bomber purely by their description. If this were NOT the case, you would not have made these assertions. Now would I be wrong in classifying a person with such outrageously discriminatory beliefs as at LEAST a crypto-racist? I THINK NOT. I did not define your views as racist. YOU did. I invite you to find fault with my logic. Or if you feel that these are sufficient grounds to arrest o shoot a person, to seek a career in the police.

Further, if such a person with such outrageous beliefs about brown people with beards and bags feels threatened when he/she sees a person who is brown and bearded doing nothing more than smiling and reaching into his bag, whose fault is it? Certainly not that of the INNOCENT brown person. If I feel mirth at the stupidity of such people, believe me I have earned it and so have they.

You have all picked on a very specific paragraph within a lengthy text which others here have merely found amusing, which was nine tenths of its original intention. I guess for the benefit of you and others of like mind I and people wshould shave my beard (which I think looks rather fetching), carry my belongings loose in my hands and not travel on the underground at all.

I invite any moderator to make a detailed examination of anything I have said on this thread and the replies I have received and determine for themselves who has the limited, inflexible viewpoint here.

LOL keep talking, your clearing the true meanings of this thread up for everybody else to see quite nicely.

Oh and one last thing, last time I checked, you or I cannot see the colour of each other's skin over the internet, i fear some, no all, of your assumptions are based on pure sterotypical views that you have of people.

I could be caucasian, asian, african, oriental.

a) a brown face,

b) a beard ,

c) and a bag on the underground and

d) reached into my bag (often pulling out only a bottle of water or some such non-explosive device). I would like you to quote where I have described any other action.

Now since you have all variously described my act as a "sick" imitation of a suicide bomber, it can be concluded by logic that you all consider anyone brown, wearing a bag and a beard a suicide bomber purely by their description.

I have noticed how you are completely and utterly hung up surrounding your ethenticity. If you are looking for these people 'against' you you will find.

In the second quote, I notice how you refer to 'your'. So what are you trying to declare? It's a case of 'us' and 'you'? Seems like it's you looking for the problems.

I did not define your views as racist. YOU did. I invite you to find fault with my logic. Or if you feel that these are sufficient grounds to arrest o shoot a person, to seek a career in the police.

Well, I don't really know how to reply, what an absolute outrageous comment. The police had to act fast. The fact of the matter is when pursued the Brazilian man hopped a barrier and ran off, quite suspicious behavior. People argue when arrested they didn't have to shoot, when restraining the man how did they know he was acting alone? Or if he had a portable detonator? If they hadn;t of acted and the case was different the police would be attacked by the media for the loss of serious life. I feel sorry for the individual who had died but the police couldn't risk the matter after such short notice of an attack.

I invite any moderator to make a detailed examination of anything I have said on this thread and the replies I have received and determine for themselves who has the limited, inflexible viewpoint here.

I second that. You too have suggested people who have attacked your views as having racist tendencies. it appears to me you are looking for something in particular and it's all too easy to find it and enlarge it as everyone being against you and racist. This is not the case.

hey fulcanelli,

im not sure about the argument going on here, but I enjoyed reading your post. Well written and pretty much true. Ive been in London for 3 years, and am still amazed at the amount of cameras leering at us on every roof. At least they could decorate them or something, imagine 1000's of gargoyles watching your every move.

Keep it up.

Originally posted by fulcanelli
And the allusions to my relatives are pathetically weak - neither myself nor any of them have EVER claimed any form of state benefits,

I just re-read this bit, your are assuming I am passing comment on your relatives. That defies belief, are you seriously stating to me that nobody in your family has ever visited the doctor's or the dentist, are you saying nobody has young children and receives any form of moneytary benefits from the government?

Are you a working family man, do you receive Familt Tax Credits?

Ever been un-employed and claimed JSA?

What about Child Support when you were young?

These are all benefits, freely given out by the government to help people!!

If you are truely one of the extremely few people in this country that can happily live a life without needing any support (no matter what form it comes in) then fair play to you, but as you must realise alot of people claiming benefits in this country and others, are playing a fraudulent game - this is why we have billboards saying "we can track you down if your claiming false benefits / not paying TV license fee / Road Tax"

I'm not going to defend my original question because you have read impossibly far into it - so this only goes to give more credibility to the views that you are trying/seeing more of a problem than actually exists.

I tire of your weak, directionless doubletalk and childishly transparent ad hominem attacks - it's clear so far that you have not addressed a SINGLE point I have made in argument against you. Can you speak to my facts and arguments or not? Clearly not. I invite you to try, but I won't hold my breath.

Your statement in your last post is less than meaningless, it's absurd, and I don't intend to dignify it with an answer if all you can do is accuse ME of racism (the very thought! - perhaps you'd like to visit my myspace page and see that I am, indeed, brown and as I have described after all, minus the beard; www.myspace.com/fulcanelli23).

Your understanding and attempted use of Orwellian language seems as pitifully limited as your powers of argument - you'll have to get better at it i you want to try accusing a person of being racist after making it quite clear where your own prejudices lie.

Again, I invite you to speak to the facts and engage me in ARGUMENT rather than the rather childish parody thereof you seem so far to have resorted to.

If, as I suspect, you cannot, then consider my subsequent silence towards you and anyone else who has your seeming inability for civilised discussion to be due to the fact that I'm deriving far more pleasure reading and laughing at your posts and watching you incrementally make more of a fool of yourself that I ever would in wasting my time with replies.

And let me also suggesting that you have much to learn from our American cousins here - they do not generally engage in character assassinating anyone with anti-governemnt views and demanding they leave "their" country (I remind you again, I have a British passport and have lived here ALL MY LIFE) since they, unlike you, understand that the highest expression of patriotism is to question your government. It's people like me who make changes, while people like you just get in the way during the struggle and then claim credit and support for the advances made afterwards.

Keep it up if you wish, but with every post you add to the amusement for me and anyone else here with the intelligence to see you for what you are. Either ARGUE with me, if you can, or demonstrate further that you don't even know the meaning of the word.

Oh, and if you sooooo badly wanted to add me to your ignore list, I'm sure you would have. Can't bring yourself to because you "want to hear what I have to say" huh? How does that square with what you've written about me so far?
Your ego clearly won't allow you to until you feel you have had the last word. Well, talk away, my friend. Metaphorically speaking, the only sound I hear from you is the shovel repeatedly hitting the soil with every word you utter.

Fulcanelli

Originally posted by eoyn
Ive been in London for 3 years, and am still amazed at the amount of cameras leering at us on every roof.

Well, not being a Londoner myself, I am not surprised.

London as you well know, is a major capital and unfortunately there is alot of crime, specifically minor robberies, which is why i believe there are so many cameras.

The reasoning is: they are there primarily as a deterant (hence they're visablity) then secondarily as evidence capture of infractions of the law.



[edit on 19/6/06 by ISJ]

I for one find the original thread starter is clearly and precisly stating his case , it is well written and pretty well articulated.

as for those benefits : if he deserves to get them so be it , everyone be he brown ,black or white is entiteled to them.

If you have a problem with that then take it your local politician or parlamentary representative.

@ knights

I'm not sure how much of this thread you've read, but the issue of my race arose in illustration that those here who have taken offence (at the fact that I was on a train, brown, bearded and with a rucksack and thought it was funny when passengers actually believed that I was a threat) at my actions on the underground and who have then tried to accuse ME of being racist have only defined themselves as such, by logic. The "us" and "you" was in now way intended in the way you seem to have taken it - either wittingly or unwittingly - out of context, andwas part of that exchange.

I made no reference AT ALL to the De Menezes shooting, but since you did, allow me to correct you - Mr. De Menezes, it has now been confirmed (and mentioned in several UK media) did NOT jump the barrier or act in any way suspiciously.

As far as MY defining others as racist for not agreeing with my views, that is untrue, and can be proven as such by simply reading this thread through in order and looking at all mentions of the race issue in their proper context in the exchange. The issue of race has been raised again and again by my detractors, all of whom have used this to attack me. I have simply stated that those who feel I have done something so terribly wrong by being brown, bearded and having a rucksack on the underground need to perhaps take a long hard look at themselves before calling anyone, least of all me, a racist.

@ISJ

These benefits are paid for by taxation, they are NOT free for taxpayers, of which I am one. And as far as making allusions to my relatives, let me remind you of your words...

"You are not being held in this country, you are free to leave and persue a new life elsewhere, or is the free health care, benefits and support for you and your relatives TOO MUCH OF A DRAW? If you don't like it, go elsewhere. "

This was in the FIRST LINE of your first reply to my original thread. You were thereby implying that perhaps the state benefits offered by this country have been the "draw" that have kept myself and my family here. If this is not to be taken as a direct personal attack upon myself AND my family, I shudder to see what is.
I have been civil with you so far, which is more than can be said of you and your compatriots.

Again, speak to my arguments if you can. So far this is exactly what you have been avoiding.

Fulcanelli

@ eoyn

Thanks for the props, matey. And what a brilliant idea! Gargoyles! Let's dress up the surveillance infrastructure with livery befitting its dark purpose!

@ ISJ

I'm not a family man, have been briefly unemployed after leaving university but never claimed unemployment benefits, never claimed disability allowances, never claimed child support benefits and neither did my parents, and the few trips we made to a doctor or a dentist (knock wood) were made to private practitioners for which we paid. This would perhaps make more sense if you understood a bit more about the disdain with which people from my mother culture view handouts, be they from the government or any other source.

Great post Fulcanelli, Whether good or bad we are a culture of "Big Brother" and I honestly dont think there's much we can do about it now, It will take a long time and some big political changes to see a brighter future for this country.

I admit to being a bit taken aback by your slight enjoyment of fellow passenagers though, My Uncle was seriously injured by the IRA Birmingham pub bombings and suffered with PTSD and took a long time before he could go back into a pub, How do you know that your not sitting next to a survior of 7/7 when on the tube??
I agree with you that people are stereotyping you but in todays climate it is hard not to. I live in a shared house and get "stereotyped" sometimes and find it funny, friends can share a house in the tv show "friends", but in the real world its not as humourous. lol

Edited to say "Hi Fulcanelli and welcome to ATS"

[edit on 19-6-2006 by Kurokage]

The benefits thing is a distraction.

I'm more concerned that you come on here slagging the UK and yet admit our country offered your parents santuary. Presumably they had the choice of numerous other countries that were so welcoming and generous. As you clearly don't like it here perhaps you should chastise your parents for accepting our offer.

I say again you're showing little respect for our country and its institutions which is ungrateful as you admit we've given you so much.

If you don't like something then as a citizen you can vote to change it, stand for office and change it yourself or go and live somewhere you'll be happier. Leave your passport at the airport when you go as you obviously wouldn't want our twisted racist govt to help you should you fall foul of the authorities in your new country

You've failed to apologise for the racist accusations you've been hurling about and admitted on here to causing fear & intimidation on the Tube.

Keep digging mate I think everyone's getting a clear picture of where your motivation lies.

Oh and yes there are lots of cameras but they're only there to keep an eye on you personally - obviously as our entire system is just there to pick on people of colour [sarc]

Welcome to ATS, Fulcanelli.

Fantastic post, concise, well written and witty! Every word that you have spoken is being proven right judging by the 'debate' that has ensued.

And for all you people bleating on about free health care, I've got 2 words for you

NATIONAL INSURANCE

[edit on 19-6-2006 by Delta Alter]

Point well made, kurokage.

However, the essence of my original post was not centred around the whole thing on the train - that was a bit of a humorous aside indicating my amusement that the people of this country seem to have gone the way of the American public in fear after 7/7 and bought into the propaganda. Some here seem to think it's the central activity of my life, and that it's what I do every weekend for kicks, which is obviously taking what I have said ludicrously out of context. Bottom line where they are concerned is that I can't help being brown, I REFUSE to shave my beard (why should I?), I have no choice but to use the underground daily, and I have as much a right to reach for objects in my bag as anyone else there. The fact that certain people feel threatened by me is not something that I can practicably avoid, but the ROOTS and the overblown and almost illusory nature of the threat is what leads me to a wry smirk in irony while on the tube. What else can I do?

Spending so much of my life in and around central London I know one person who was injured in the attacks and know another who lost a dear friend - I have the utmost respect for the victims and their bereaved, but this respect comes with a sense of OUTRAGE at the fact that so many believe the official conspiracy theory (for that is most unquestionably what it is) over the harder to swallow truth. Both of the colleagues I have mentioned, with no intervention from me, believe and can SEE the propaganda being put into effect and the motives behind it as well as I can.

Weak. pathetically weak. all someone has to do is look at what you've written, compare it to what you THINK you're attacking, and conclude the same. Just plain weak.

Your assumption that my parents came here seeking asylum when there is nothing of that nature mentioned by me, along with your desperate attempts to backpedal away from your own clear racism, is topped by this particular cherry.

My parents, *snip*, for that is what you have now DEFINED yourself as, with that one comment as with all the other mistaken assumptions I have deconstructed so embarrasingly for you, my parents came here with CONFIRMED JOBS as high level academicians in major universities. They NEVER claimed political asylum, they came here after being HEADHUNTED by our universities.

Wipe the rabid foam from your lips and try again. You won't get another response out of me. You're not worthy of the exspenditure of ANY further effort for me to educate. Keep it up. Please. You're now doing my work for me.

Fulcanelli

Mod Note: Terms & Conditions Of Use – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 6/19/2006 by 12m8keall2c]

Fulcanelli steps outside and takes in a deep breath.... Okay, mods, sorry *SNIP*
To those who have given support, my sincere thanks.

[edit on 19-6-2006 by fulcanelli]

[edit on 6/19/2006 by 12m8keall2c]

Mod Edit: Quit While You're Ahead.

[edit on 19/6/2006 by Mirthful Me]