Update: Russian 5th Gen "to fly" by 2009: Defense Minister

I agree with prelude!!!

Today russia feeding all europe with oil and gas. Every day oil is growing so russians gets more and more money.

Russia have a lot unique millitary equipmet that it selling to all coutries around the world including US. (To us: mines detecting equpment, jets engection sits)

Then look on F-22, who will buy 170million plane, if it can buy russian su or migs for much cheaper prise. Then Remember that US say stealth technology is the best in the world and only way to live, but remember the Yugoslavia war. With technology of 60th S-125 "Neva"/"Pechora" (Russian: С-123 "Нева"/"Печора", NATO reporting name SA-3 "Goa") could shoot down F-117 (the stealth or not so stealth:puz
Ref: en.wikipedia.org...

Sorry but after that insident i start not belive in stealth tech.

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by prelude
Moreover if South East Asia (India , Pakistan , Bangladesh, Srilanka etc ) with her Dirty unhygienic roads and cities , above critical level pollution , hot(above 40 degrees centigrade temp ) humid climate , Highest infection rates in the world …can have the highest density of population in the world

Whats that meant to mean?

It means that if such a large amount people can survive in the polluted environmental conditions of SE Asia (Google for details ) then people wont have any probs in residing in Russia just due to the fact that its a very COLD COUNTRY ( with far better living conditions.)

In 3 years
Russian GDP has climbed from
16th Rank (2002) to 9th Rank (2005)....A GIANT LEAP FOR RUSSIA

You have one measurement in nominal values while the other is in PPP?



the 2005 rank is in PPP but the link of 2002 doesn’t state whether its nominal or PPP….But I too think that one of the figures in in PPP and the other is in Nominal values …because such a giant leap appears IMPOSSIBLE to me



[edit on 18-6-2006 by prelude]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Prelude, how does "could" become "Russian 5th Gen 'to fly' by 2009: Defense Minister"?

The Russian Defense Minister is quoted as saying: 'Could make its maiden flight as early as 2009," as cited in the article.

"Could" becomes "should" then matures to a factoid.... :shk:

seekerof

Ya i did it deliberately Bcoz i was more interested on the topic what this "flying" imply to.....First maiden flight or mass production .....and probalities dont interest me

Russian Pessimism

I think rumors of the death of Russia are greatly exaggerated.

Yes, they are going through hard times, but hard times are hardly news to Russians.

Maybe we won't see any miracles in 2009, but I recommend not underestimating Russia's power.

Others have made that mistake before, to their enduring regret.

Originally posted by prelude


You are correct some laws in our country need to be corrected and more importantly correctly implemented

Divorce rates has skyrocketed in Russia since the fall of soviet union ....and like else where its the men (and not women )who are generally responsible...a russian woman gets almost no support from her exhusband...and its the woman who bears the child ...I must say its Russian women who are keeping up the soceity......Its they who earn for their child ....a huge monetary compansation will surly have a positive effect in keeping up the population ....however it may have negative effect too ....men may refuse to marry...there are many men today in Russia who dont want to marry...such a law may increase the number ....so our leaders needs to make some balanced law

Thank you for the information

I agree with you on Russian women, From personally experience I will vouch for them being some of the strongest women I have ever known as well as some of the best looking IMO

Originally posted by azazelgmail

Then look on F-22, who will buy 170million plane, if it can buy russian su or migs for much cheaper prise. Then Remember that US say stealth technology is the best in the world and only way to live, but remember the Yugoslavia war. With technology of 60th S-125 "Neva"/"Pechora" (Russian: С-123 "Нева"/"Печора", NATO reporting name SA-3 "Goa") could shoot down F-117 (the stealth or not so stealth

:puz

Ref: en.wikipedia.org...

Sorry but after that insident i start not belive in stealth tech.

Please don't bring this up again. It's been dicussed over and over and over again on almost every military website and most people know that it was a fluke. The USAF got arrogant and flew the same route many, many times. There is a reason why Russia is trying to incorporate some form of low-RCS technology into it's next plane.

Originally posted by prelude
It means that if such a large amount people can survive in the polluted environmental conditions of SE Asia (Google for details ) then people wont have any probs in residing in Russia just due to the fact that its a very COLD COUNTRY ( with far better living conditions.)

Its just funny when your using the words Dirty unhygienic roads and cities , above critical level pollution, and polluted environmental conditions. While a wile ago you had so much praise for countries like india

But isn't comparing cold climates and hot climates like apples and oranges?

How is a normal russian town any better than any other one in the rest of the world?. Moscow is not a bench mark of infrastucture

the 2005 rank is in PPP but the link of 2002 doesn’t state whether its nominal or PPP

Its measuring GDP and not standard of living so its in nominal values. PPP is the figure people use to measure the standard of living in different countries because of the difference in price, While nominal values are used to measure how big the economy is

[edit on 19-6-2006 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by chinawhite

Its just funny when your using the words Dirty unhygienic roads and cities , above critical level pollution, and polluted environmental conditions. While a wile ago you had so much praise for countries like india

But isn't comparing cold climates and hot climates like apples and oranges?

How is a normal russian town any better than any other one in the rest of the world?. Moscow is not a bench mark of infrastucture

I still praise and love India for various reasons and in this post I am not telling anything bad of India ....I am just telling the reality ...which any foreigner from any decent country will discover once they land in Delhi or Mumbai .....India is developing many good things but as par Hygine and health I ll keep India in the last of my list

Now about Russian Cities ...how are they Diffrent?...There is hell and heaven diffrence ..one is a developed country while the other is a developing one .....well you can discover the diffrence when you personally visit both the parts of the world(Russia and SE Asia ).....but here are some striking features:

1 Each and every city of SE Asia has a lot of slums ...where living conditions are beyond immagination ...Mumbai has the largest number of slums in the world ....In NO Russian City you can discover a single Slum

2 SE Asian cities are full of homeless people and beggars ....sleeping in the streets etc...Russain cities are far more decent from this respect....

3 SE cities in general are Dirty and polluted ....Russian cities are dirty too when compared to Western Europe but when compared to SE Asia Russian Cities are heaven

4 In SE Asian countries The summer temperrature reaches 40 digrees ....in such conditions life becomes impossible without AC and Electricity .....Many Many villages in SE ASia Still Dont have electricity ...forget about AC ..I didnt find AC in any of the 9 AS Asian villages i visited ......the cities are no better even Delhi its only the rich people who have AC....Power cut offs are inevitable at Nights EVERYDAY .....Residencial Houses dont have Regular water supply ./..These are condition in big cities like Delhi an Mumbai ...you cxan imagine the conditions in small ones

While in Russia ...Electricity , gas are free and can be found in any Residencial house .....I havent experienced a SINGLE POWER CUTOFF in my 2O year Stay in St Petersburg .....There are yaer long supply of PURIFIED hot water and cold water free by govt...some thing SE asian Govts can never think in next 50 years

5 Dresses of people in the streets also speak of thier living standard in both countries ...You need personal experiance for understanding ......Russian dresses are at least 6 times more expensive

6 the cars visible in the roads of Delhi are mainly cheap ones ...mainly Marutis, Tatas, Hundais etc there are very very few International cars like Marcedes BMWs etc ...In Russian Cities the cheapest cars (lada )are far beteer and expensive than the Marutis and Tatas and the cities are full of Marcidies ,Jagwars, BMWs ,Landrovers , Hammers etc...for the last 3 years the largest amount of orders fr Roles Royes have been ordered from Russia

7 Any big Russian city has underground metro stations.....Metro station of Moscow is the deepest in the world and is considered to be the most beautiful in the world ......It has 10 layers of lines crisscrossing each other..St Petersburg has 5 layered Metro, Kiew has 4 layered , ekaterin burg had 4 layered Metro...the list of such Russian cities is endless.....while SE Asia has Metro ONLY in 2 cities....In Delhi and in Kolkata ....both the metros are of only one layer and are very small witout any sort of airconditioning

No SE asian city have ever seen a monorail....quite common in Russian ones



8 the "Infrastructure in MOscow and St petersburg are capable of putting her counterparts in Paris and New york in Shame" - Times magazine .....Just browse the net you will find more


the diffrences are many ....I ll tireup typing them ....just a small thing can explain all these things ....a very good measure of the infrastructure of a city is her capablity to organise Olympics ...The selection committee looks at all sorts of Infrastructures of the city ..No city in the SE Asia have even qualified as the top 10 cities to host a perticular Olympic......all the major cities of Russia via Moscow ,St Petersburg, Sochi, Ekaterinburg have qualified among the top 5 for organising the olympics......Moscow has even organized the Olympics in 1980 and was among the top 5 (along with New York , london, paris and Madrid ) for organising the next olympics...unfortunately (mainly for political reasons) london took the pride



lastly in One Word :

HELL AND HEAVEN DIFFERENCE




[edit on 19-6-2006 by prelude]

Originally posted by chinawhite
Its measuring GDP and not standard of living so its in nominal values. PPP is the figure people use to measure the standard of living in different countries because of the difference in price, While nominal values are used to measure how big the economy is

[edit on 19-6-2006 by chinawhite]

LOL Common give me a break.....a fifth standard student in Russia knows better economics than you do .....

In no case GDP (PPP/nominal ) gives any estimate of standard of living...It always states How big the economy is (Generally bigger the population bigger the GDP...with some exceptions ) .......GDP acc to PPP is economically more accurate than nominal values .......Its GDP per capita that tells about standard of living ....

Had GDP been the measure of standard of living then it would have signified that China and India (with big GDP) has a better standard of living than Switzerland, Norway, Finland and Luxenburg.(the afore said countries have one of the highest living standards and GDP per capita )

Originally posted by chinawhite

Its just funny when your using the words Dirty unhygienic roads and cities , above critical level pollution, and polluted environmental conditions. While a wile ago you had so much praise for countries like india

But isn't comparing cold climates and hot climates like apples and oranges?

How is a normal russian town any better than any other one in the rest of the world?. Moscow is not a bench mark of infrastucture

I still praise and love India for various reasons and in this post I am not telling anything bad of India ....I am just telling the reality ...which any foreigner from any decent country will discover once they land in Delhi or Mumbai .....India is developing many good things but as par Hygine and health I ll keep India in the last of my list

Now about Russian Cities ...how are they Diffrent?...There is hell and heaven diffrence ..one is a developed country while the other is a developing one .....well you can discover the diffrence when you personally visit both the parts of the world(Russia and SE Asia ).....but here are some striking features:

1 Each and every city of SE Asia has a lot of slums ...where living conditions are beyond immagination ...Mumbai has the largest number of slums in the world ....In NO Russian City you can discover a single Slum

2 SE Asian cities are full of homeless people and beggars ....sleeping in the streets etc...Russain cities are far more decent from this respect....

3 SE cities in general are Dirty and polluted ....Russian cities are dirty too when compared to Western Europe but when compared to SE Asia Russian Cities are heaven

4 In SE Asian countries The summer temperrature reaches 40 digrees ....in such conditions life becomes impossible without AC and Electricity .....Many Many villages in SE ASia Still Dont have electricity ...forget about AC ..I didnt find AC in any of the 9 AS Asian villages i visited ......the cities are no better even Delhi its only the rich people who have AC....Power cut offs are inevitable at Nights EVERYDAY .....Residencial Houses dont have Regular water supply ./..These are condition in big cities like Delhi an Mumbai ...you cxan imagine the conditions in small ones

While in Russia ...Electricity , gas are free and can be found in any Residencial house .....I havent experienced a SINGLE POWER CUTOFF in my 2O year Stay in St Petersburg .....There are yaer long supply of PURIFIED hot water and cold water free by govt...some thing SE asian Govts can never think in next 50 years

5 Dresses of people in the streets also speak of thier living standard in both countries ...You need personal experiance for understanding ......Russian dresses are at least 6 times more expensive

6 the cars visible in the roads of Delhi are mainly cheap ones ...mainly Marutis, Tatas, Hundais etc there are very very few International cars like Marcedes BMWs etc ...In Russian Cities the cheapest cars (lada )are far beteer and expensive than the Marutis and Tatas and the cities are full of Marcidies ,Jagwars, BMWs ,Landrovers , Hammers etc...for the last 3 years the largest amount of orders fr Roles Royes have been ordered from Russia

7 Any big Russian city has underground metro stations.....Metro station of Moscow is the deepest in the world and is considered to be the most beautiful in the world ......It has 10 layers of lines crisscrossing each other..St Petersburg has 5 layered Metro, Kiew has 4 layered , ekaterin burg had 4 layered Metro...the list of such Russian cities is endless.....while SE Asia has Metro ONLY in 2 cities....In Delhi and in Kolkata ....both the metros are of only one layer and are very small witout any sort of airconditioning

No SE asian city have ever seen a monorail....quite common in Russian ones



8 the "Infrastructure in MOscow and St petersburg are capable of putting her counterparts in Paris and New york in Shame" - Times magazine .....Just browse the net you will find more


the diffrences are many ....I ll tireup typing them ....just a small thing can explain all these things ....a very good measure of the infrastructure of a city is her capablity to organise Olympics ...The selection committee looks at all sorts of Infrastructures of the city ..No city in the SE Asia have even qualified as the top 10 cities to host a perticular Olympic......all the major cities of Russia via Moscow ,St Petersburg, Sochi, Ekaterinburg have qualified among the top 5 for organising the olympics......Moscow has even organized the Olympics in 1980 and was among the top 5 (along with New York , london, paris and Madrid ) for organising the next olympics...unfortunately (mainly for political reasons) london took the pride

Here are some links that will take to pics taken in Russian Cities by one of my INDIAN classmates ...compare them with ANY SE Asian city...n u ll know the diffrence

Copy-pasted from www.sourabhpathak.cjb.net...

2 Me in St Petersburg:One of the top ten Tourist destinations accordiong to the UNESCO

community.webshots.com...


3 Other Pictures of St Petersburg and Moscow

pg.photos.yahoo.com...//pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/pathaksourabh/my_photos

4 VE Day Celebrations in St Petersburg

pg.photos.yahoo.com...//pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/pathaksourabh/my_photos

1 This link takes you to a beautiful Russian Village ....Its My favourite among all : community.webshots.com...

lastly in One Word :

HELL AND HEAVEN DIFFERENCE

Mod Edit: Fixed Link.






[edit on 19/6/2006 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by prelude
LOL Common give me a break.....a fifth standard student in Russia knows better economics than you do .....

Well clearly you dont. You gave a article which was measuring GDP in PPP values than one in nominal vales .Also to give you a hint, your not the only one that does economics here,


And you missed the point.

Nominal values are used to compare economies on a GDP basis because you cant compare one american dollar in china to say australia because there both using the same exchange rate

PPP is used to measure the standard of living because it takes into account the differences in cost between two countries and you can then establish the standard of living for every american dollar each person has

I never once said that i was measuring the countries GDP with PPP values

ummm..

just some food for thought:

Not to take anything away from Russia, but your comparision of slums in ASEAN economic powerhouses to the absence of the same in Russia is a skewed way of measuring economic prosperity.
Russia is prospering economically,no doubt, obviously helped by its god-given oil/gas resources. In time this kick start will fuel other industries too hopefully.

Now onto the slum comparision:

The fact that such countries which are economically so powerful and yet have slums is purely due to following fact:

1) The climate allows the existence of slums.
2)The job opportunities offered by the cities growing at phenomenal far outnumber the housing availibilities in the same region, especially for the labour workforce.
Such growth is not prevalent in Russia. Neither is the weather conducive to such quick easy/free habitations.
Getting rid of the slums is not as easy as one may think because:
a) In free/fair democracies they constitute a major vote bank.
b) You're disabling a major workforce which is vital for a economy growing at rates greater than 7%.

Slums is by no means a transparent way to measure economic prowess. Even the most developed countries have slums in regions which have a climate that allow the same.Stick to figures and numbers.

Originally posted by JFrazier
Please don't bring this up again. It's been dicussed over and over and over again on almost every military website and most people know that it was a fluke.

Nobody's saying stealth's not working/worth it. Its just that you can call it a fluke until it happens twice, thrice?
Stealth has not been tested against its true counterparts.Well structured, well trained/motivated, well informed SAM batteries working with tech desgined to counter stealth.
Btw.. that shooting down of the F-117 was NOT a fluke. It was a intelligent tactic making full use of informtaion at hand;definitely not a fluke.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Not to take anything away from Russia, but your comparision of slums in ASEAN

He actually meant SE asia as south asia he just got confused

Originally posted by prelude
Moreover if South East Asia (India , Pakistan , Bangladesh, Srilanka etc )

Originally posted by Daedalus3
ummm..

The fact that such countries which are economically so powerful and yet have slums is purely due to following fact:

1) The climate allows the existence of slums.
2)The job opportunities offered by the cities growing at phenomenal far outnumber the housing availibilities in the same region, especially for the labour workforce.
Such growth is not prevalent in Russia. Neither is the weather conducive to such quick easy/free habitations.
Getting rid of the slums is not as easy as one may think because:
a) In free/fair democracies they constitute a major vote bank.
b) You're disabling a major workforce which is vital for a economy growing at rates greater than 7%.

Slums is by no means a transparent way to measure economic prowess. Even the most developed countries have slums in regions which have a climate that allow the same.Stick to figures and numbers.

I dont say that slums are muasure of any sort of economic prowess...want i want to say is that it creates a bad ...very bad impression ....the first thing that foreigners encounter after landing in India is dirty streets and all these "black marks" .....the good things of the Indian citities (which ofcourse outnumber the bad ones )are not that clearly apparent as the bad ones...

..these problem can easyly be solved if the people involved in the process are bit more responsible...considering the economic development of India .but what happens in India is ...Everybodies responsiblity is nobody's responsiblity...

I agree that many developing economies do support slums but I dont believe that slums are required for developing an economy......I think the problem is more political

India (and of course SE ASia) had slums from the British Times ...since then there has been various phases of Indian Economic history .....at some times the economy was developing while at other times it was not ...but all the times slums were present

As for Russia ...there was a period when Russia was having rapid industrilization (during the begining of the Soviet Times )...and there were many places of the Soviet Union that had climates "favourable " for slums (like Uzbekistan , Turkmenistan Mongolia etc) ...but it was mainly due to Govt planing that slums didnot develop

Slums can never occur in "free/fair democracies"(which is an impossible situation in this world )....it occurs when the political leaders wants these slums to remain to serve their selfish political motives.....

-others say population is the main prob in India ....I think its politics ...had India got local political leaders highly educated like the ones in the top (like Vajpayee, Chidambaram and Manmohan singh) it would, by this time been a far better place to live in .




[edit on 20-6-2006 by prelude]

Prelude
Little OT:
You live in Sankt Petersburg?

Have you ever travelled north along the Finnish Border to the Rebublic of Careliam, can you claim that the old kolhoses, collectives, small towns are decent places to live? People are still mainly living like they did in 19th century... And it only gets worse when you move east across the Belaja More.

Yes St Petersburg is a good and prosperous city, as are Moscow and Nizhny Novgorod and few others, but 90% of the country is poor and under developed.


As for the miltary research, in Russia R&D has nothing to do with GDP etc. Russian University system is good and it produces able Scientists and Engineers who will work for 1/5th of their American counterparts. Russia allso has plenty of raw materials, manufacturing capacity (with more that enough precision, if not as automated as western ones), computing power is cheap these days (the amount of computing power that was used to design F22 costs less that 50000$) So there should be no problems for Russia to produce a 5th generation fighter. Will it be as good as F22 or Typhoon, we'll have to wait and see. But if they fail it won't be because of lack of knowledge or skill.

Originally posted by northwolf
Prelude
Little OT:
You live in Sankt Petersburg?

Have you ever travelled north along the Finnish Border to the Rebublic of Careliam, can you claim that the old kolhoses, collectives, small towns are decent places to live? People are still mainly living like they did in 19th century... And it only gets worse when you move east across the Belaja More.

Yes St Petersburg is a good and prosperous city, as are Moscow and Nizhny Novgorod and few others, but 90% of the country is poor and under developed.

I have been to Vibourg along the Finnish boder.,..and have visited many dachas along the region ....the region is not as developed as St Petersburg ...but the population is very low people hardly live there....and those villages have all basic requirements of life....electricity, telephone, heating ,internet , rail-connection- i dont understand what more can you expect froam a village....you cant have shopping malls in villages!!!

yes Russian cities are far more prosperous compared to the villages...but that dosent make 90% of the country poor and underdeveloped considering the fact that 85% of the Russians live in towns (mainly or weather conditions)unlike any other country ...so in other words only 15% of the country inhabited is not as developed

Here is an informative and creditable link about Russian Villages ie Dachas

here is another
www.google.com...://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/villagestructures.html&e=9797

[edit on 20-6-2006 by prelude]

Originally posted by chinawhite
He actually meant SE asia as south asia he just got confused

Yea well that's besides the point.. slums are everywhere: In South Asia, South East Asia.. East Asia.. where the habitat is generally conducive.

Prelude
Datchas in vyborg area are still part of StPetersburgs economical infuence area... I meant the regions north of Ladoga and cities like Petrozavodsk (Петрозаводск, Petroskoi), Medvezhyegorsk (Медвежьегорск, Karhumäki), Kondopoga (Кондопога, Kontupohja) etc. etc. Those kind of "cities" house fairly large amount of people... and i'd compare parts of them to slums in southern hemisphere as well as the huge housing blocks around moscow and other cities, yes they have a roof and walls, but they are crowded and lack many nececities due to horrible maintenance. (I know i've been there)

Originally posted by northwolf
Prelude
Datchas in vyborg area are still part of StPetersburgs economical infuence area... I meant the regions north of Ladoga and cities like Petrozavodsk (Петрозаводск, Petroskoi), Medvezhyegorsk (Медвежьегорск, Karhumäki), Kondopoga (Кондопога, Kontupohja) etc. etc. Those kind of "cities" house fairly large amount of people... and i'd compare parts of them to slums in southern hemisphere as well as the huge housing blocks around moscow and other cities, yes they have a roof and walls, but they are crowded and lack many nececities due to horrible maintenance. (I know i've been there)

I know we r moving away from the topic and seriously its not but habit to spit at others …but circumstances compel.

Yes I have been to Petrozavosk ...many times ...actually my ex-girlfriend was from Petrozavodsk .....Its a small town with a decent atmosphere ....I really cant understand how can you compare the conditions in Petrozavodsk with Slums...its basically a city of the lower middle class...the worst that I can remember is that there are some congested houses where sometimes a three people family lives in a single room and shares a common bathroom and kitchen with other such families.… which is mainly due to expensive house rents in the cities…...some Student Hostels (which are almost FREE for Russian students )are also in a shabby condition ......I wont call this a good situation...but I can say for sure these conditions are far far better than Slums in SE Asia(I think you meant SE Asia by "southern hemisphere")....at least those rooms have 24 hours electricity (without power cutoffs )they atleast have a toilet (however backdated it may be ) the buildings at least have a telephone connection. a running water and a gas supply ...

I am sure u haven’t been to proper slums in SE Asia. I have been to many last year as a Medical Student under a WHO project ......there are slums that don’t have any electric connection .....there is no water supply ...no brick houses ...no toilet...to have a phone connection a gas supply is a day dream there ......and the most important thing is the public health .....since almost all the dwellers are illegal the local authorities were not able to give us any sort of medical statistical data about them ...the public hospital nearby was so unhygienic that our team was sure a normal person will get infected once he enters there(You wont believe but patients are admitted on hospital FLOORS along with street cats and dogs ..and operation theaters are as dirty as stables) ..so we had to do everything ourselves....we found 95% of the slum dwellers were positive for Primary Tuberculosis , 67% were HIV positive ...I dont feel good typing other such horrible medical figures.....but this was the condition of a country that is presently doing well as far as economics are concerned(I don’t want to name the country since my aim is not a personal attack to any particular country ) the slums in lesser developed neighboring countries were worse .......

Russia is having problems in transition to capitalism but at least our people have access to some of the basic requisites ...free health care(I know some hospitals r back dated but still they dot make you sleep on the floors ) free education...almost free electricity, gas and telephone service ...in most part of the developing world such facilities are beyond imagination...I am sure you have never been to a proper SE Asian slum else you wont have compared them with the COMPARATIVELY heavenly conditions of Petrozavodsk.

kharasho -paka droog …cichas oominiya niyeto bhremiya …..


[edit on 20-6-2006 by prelude]