N. Korea will punish the US.

posted by evanfitz

NK is a very real threat if tampered with. The DMZ is the largest guarded border in the world. Well over a million troops are protecting it. [Edited by Don W]

The US had 38,000 soldiers in South Korea before the Nine Eleven Event. I have not heard much about that force since the invasions of Afghan and Iraq. Maybe yes, maybe no.

Many years ago the South Koreans replaced the US on the immediate border. I assume our soldiers went south toward Pusan maybe?

I do not believe the South Korean Army is anywhere near a million men. With US soldiers serving as a ‘trip wire” on NK’s possible aggression, it never seemed to Seoul it would have need for a very large armed forces. This info is probably on the CIA World Fact Book website.

I believe China controls NK. China wants peace. It does not have an aggressive Army. It has an army to 1) defend itself and 2) control dissenters at home.




[edit on 6/11/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by hawk74
...Korean leaders know they can't shoot down a US plane without reprisial, thats why its in the news...

you think? the "spy" planes were encroaching on territorial waters...but if it came close to land...id shoot it and ask questions later esp if its a non-civillian aircraft...whats there to be afraid of?

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
...If by some mircle, they got a missle to the US and say it had a nuclear device on it-NK would end...period...NK like to mouth off lots, but they have neither the tech or ability to do any real damage to the us, the us however, has the ability to kill every living thing in NK...

the us has the capability to devastate any nation on earth...no denying that...but which president is willing to take a nuke hit (or more) on us soil to destroy nk...

imagine what would happen if two 5mt nukes fell on new york and yellowstone...imo...nk talks all these smack coz they can and are willing to back it up...

These flights will be done by RC-135 and U-2 aircraft. They operate in International Airspace and monitor communications and other electronics. They sometimes come close to shore in an attempt to get a country to bring up a Surface to Air Missile battery so they can map it and figure out what time. At no point do they actually ENTER North Korean Airspace, but they enter what NK CONSIDERS their airspace.

RC-135:

The USAF RC-135V/W RIVET JOINT surveillance aircraft are equipped with an extensive array of sophisticated intelligence gathering equipment enabling military specialists to monitor the electronic activity of adversaries. Also known as "RJ", the aircraft are sometimes called "hogs" due to the extended "hog nose" and "hog cheeks". RIVET JOINT has been widely used in the 1990's -- during Desert Storm, the occupation of Haiti, and most recently over Bosnia. Using automated and manual equipment, electronic and intelligence specialists can precisely locate, record and analyse much of what is being done in the electromagnetic spectrum. The fleet of 14 RIVET JOINT aircraft increased to 15 in late 1999 with the addition of a converted C-135B. The jet's conversion cost about $90 million.

Basic roles include:

providing indications about the location and intentions of enemyforces and warnings of threatening activity
broadcasting a variety of direct voice communications. Of highest priority are combat advisory broadcasts and imminent threat warnings that can be sent direct to aircraft in danger
operating both data and voice links to provide target info to US ground based air defenses
The RIVET JOINT aircraft are capable of conducting ELINT and COMINT intercept operations against targets at ranges of up to 240 kilometers [in contrast to the 280 kilometer intercept range of the higher-flying U-2].

The RIVET JOINT aircraft operated by the 55th Wing, Offutt Air Force Base, Neb., provide direct, near real-time reconnaissance information and electronic warfare support to theater commanders and combat forces. In support of the 55th, the 95th Reconnaissance Squadron operates out of Mildenhall and provides pilots and navigators to fly the aircraft. The 488th Intelligence Squadron provides the intelligence personnel who work in the back of the plane. Since the beginning of Operation Joint Endeavor December 21, 1995 through May 1996 the 95th and 488th flew 625 hours and 72 sorties together in support of the peacekeeping operation in Bosnia-Herzegovina.


RIVET JOINT (RC-135V/W) is an air refuelable theater asset with a nationally tasked priority. It collects, analyzes, reports, and exploits enemy BM/C4I. During most contingencies, it deploys to the theater of operations with the airborne elements of TACS (AWACS, ABCCC, Joint STARS, etc.) and is connected to the aircraft via datalinks and voice as required. The aircraft has secure UHF, VHF, HF, and SATCOM communications. Refined intelligence data can be transferred from Rivet Joint to AWACS through the Tactical Digital Information Link TADIL/A or into intelligence channels via satellite and the TACTICAL INFORMATION BROADCAST SERVICE (TIBS), which is a nearly real-time theater information broadcast.

www.fas.org...

U-2:

The U-2 provides continuous day or night, high-altitude, all-weather, stand-off surveillance of an area in direct support of U.S. and allied ground and air forces. It provides critical intelligence to decision makers through all phases of conflict, including peacetime indications and warnings, crises, low-intensity conflict and large-scale hostilities. When requested, the U-2 also has provided photographs to the Federal Emergency Management Agency in support of disaster relief.

The U-2 is a single-seat, single-engine, high-altitude, reconnaissance aircraft. Long, wide, straight wings give the U-2 glider-like characteristics. It can carry a variety of sensors and cameras, is an extremely reliable reconnaissance aircraft, and enjoys a high mission completion rate. However, the aircraft can be a difficult aircraft to fly due to its unusual landing characteristics. Because of its high altitude mission, the pilot must wear a full pressure suit.

www.fas.org...

The US Government should leave North Korea alone, just as they should have listened to JFK and left Vietnam alone (rather than assassinating him).

Underestimation is their worst enemy, not these nations.

[edit on 12-6-2006 by RemusUK]

posted by RemusUK
The US Government should leave North Korea alone . . [Edited by Don W]

We can’t. We are inextricably involved in Japan and South Korea. Throw in Taiwan. And though geographically more remote, but nevertheless in our zone of influence, the Philippines. We shunned North Korea after the 1953 Truce because it was an “open sore” and a drain on USSR resources. Part of our Cold War strategy to wear down the Soviet Union.

The Law of Unintended Consequences simultaneously created 2 going into 3 generations of North Koreans who hate the US for doing what we have done to them without regard for them as a people. How do you fix that overnight? All the more if American leaders - Dems and GOPs - do not share this view of the “problem” but instead remain transfixed by the Nine Eleven Event? And that latest intellectual cop-out, The Axis of Evil? Which resonates so easily with most American's simplistic view of the world? It's good for votes at home whether or not it is useful abroad. Live with it.

“ . , just as they should have listened to JFK and left Vietnam alone. Underestimation is the worst enemy, not these nations.

Well, I differ with you on JFK vis a vis Vietnam. Eisenhower put in 800 unarmed “advisors.” 1958. By the time Kennedy was killed, 1963, the number of advisors had risen to nearly 2,000 and they were by then authorized to make “defensive” strikes. Pre-emption we call it now.

The US choose to continue the occupation the French had established by force of arms in the late 19th century, without any of the economic, social and religious allies of the French. We backed the 5% of the native population that had aligned itself with the occupying power for their own private gain without regard for the future of the Vietnamese nation. We got our comeuppance from the likes of Ho Chi Minh and Gen. Giap. And perhaps as many as 3 million Vietnamese who died for the freedom of their country. The 10,000 Days War of Liberation.



[edit on 6/12/2006 by donwhite]

These planes serve a very important function in interlligence gathering. Where satellites and high-altitude aircraft focus on imaging and radar-mapping of terrain, these planes are flying listening stations. They monitor, record and analyze radar and low-power tactical communications. They have to get close to do this because the transmitters are purposely putting out the lowest possible power to prevent eavesdropping. By detetcing these signals we can determine capabilities, transmitter locations, communicatiopn protocols and technology not to mention the actual message content and coding systems.

This look similar to the stunt they tried to pull in Iraq where they tried to bait Iraq's SAM's into shooting there spyplaned down so they could use it as an excuse to wage war or create conflict.

posted by jtma508

The planes serve an important function in intelligence gathering. Satellites and high-altitude aircraft focus on imaging and radar-mapping, these planes are flying listening stations. They monitor, record and analyze radar and low-power tactical communications. They have to get close because the transmitters are purposely putting out low power to prevent eavesdropping. Detecting these signals we can determine capabilities, transmitter locations, communication protocols and technology not to mention the actual message content and coding systems. [Edited by Don W]

Because I do not hear NK is into making sophisticated electronic devices or high tech communications equipment, it must be they are using equipment of either Russian or Chinese origins and I assume we already know more about that stuff than we really need to know.

Yes. Back in those halcyon days of the Korean War, and just thereafter, we had such a base at K55, the island of Paengnyong Do. I was there for 7 days. Bleak! And more bleak! Which island is still in S. Korea’s hands and I presume is still a listening post as it was back then. Sometime I’ll describe the C119 landing and taking off from the dog-leg sand beach not over 3,000 feet in length.

Maybe the EP3 is as good at this mission as any aircraft we have?


[edit on 6/12/2006 by donwhite]

Sky News reported about an hour ago that NK was preparing to fire a missile.

Originally posted by donwhite


The former Clinton ambassador to NK says Kim Jong Il has materials for at least 2 and maybe up to 10 atom bombs. This is not to say Jong has any bombs. Atomic bomb-making is not easy so I read.

Where did you read that?? Making a nuclear weapon is quite easy really once you do the hard part which is getting the material refined to weapons grade which all accounts suggest N Koera has already done. After that most college labs could easily produce a weapon with almost all off the shelf componets.

I'm talking crude weapons like Fatboy but they will still #$@% up a city. Making a nuclear weapon that will fit into a missile warhead is ALOT harder. But seeing that the Pakistani father of the Bomb admitted to selling such plans for over a decade to nations including N Korea it wouldn't be that hard if you had complete plans for even the most mundane country.

[edit on 12-6-2006 by ShadowXIX]

I spend most of my tv time on weekends watching CSpan or CSpan2. You can reach the schedule on booktv.org. It's great and the best show on tv. A lot of prior shows are online, too. That’s under “watch.tv” at the website.

She said NK had enough material for at least 2 and maybe 10 but not likely that much material. I did not get the impression what she said was new or unexpected.

Don... we need to keep track of what they are doing because it changes constantly. Newer technology (like NK could get from the Russians and/or Chinese) use all sorts of frequency hoping and phase modulation techniques to encrypt communications. The algorithms are constantly changed so we have to keep up with what they are doing.

Pres. Clinton negotiated directly with NK and reached an agreement the NK’s would stop work on nuclear bombs and we’d build them 2 or 3 heavy water nuclear powered electric energy plants. I believe this is the Westinghouse version as opposed to the GE version. In any case, it mattered not as the Congress decided not to fund the agreement.

posted by jtma508
Don . . we need to keep track of what they are doing because it changes constantly. Newer technology (like NK could get from the Russians and Chinese) use all sorts of frequency hoping and phase modulation techniques to encrypt communications. The algorithms are constantly changed so we have to keep up with what they are doing. [Edited by Don W]

I certainly want the US to keep up. Some people don’t realize when we do things that look silly like looking into the Anastasi and why they disappeared. The US needs to “know everything.” I’m serious. All the more on contemporary Intel on nations that are not friendly towards us.

I have no idea what Geo W has up his sleeve. He has admitted he is a “risk taker” and deals viscerally with most of the problems of the world. Quick draw, I call’em. Justice Texas style. West of the Pecos. Judge Roy Bean and etc. Shoot first, ask questions later. As in Iraq. Well, I don’t know what to make of the report NK is about to test a ICBM. I don’t believe it, until I see it. If NK can shoot off an ICBM on its $900 a year average GDP - vs our $45,000 - how come the US has spent many 10s of billions of dollars? Maybe we ought to privatize out to NK our national defense? On the money saved we could furnish health care to all Americans.
Wow!

Originally posted by evanfitz
You'd think that we wouldn't even need spy planes with all of these satellites in space.

I would agree, but when sat's are tasked elsewhere, then they use the 'cheaper' stuff. Cheaper not really true, but this is just how it works.

Another wild guess is that we know they really can't do anything about it, so we work the 'cold war' option on Korea. If they had anything that really scared us, then we'd stick to the big birds in the sky and use airframes for holes like Afghanistan.

posted by desert

Lordy, Donwhite, the plane may be old but it's what's inside that counts. Here's an info link to future replacement for EP-3
[Edited by Don W]

OK, so the Army is willing to adapt an existing airframe like the Grumman Gulfstream 3 which seats 21 in the civilian version. The Brits ought to like that as it uses RR Spey engines. Range is given as 4100 miles with 8 passengers. The first Gulfstream was delivered in 1980, not exactly new, either.

Q1. This is an Army project for battlefield work. Do you think it is also going to fit into the AF mission?

Q2. I’d guess the AF would want a new plane from the ground up. Maybe to include some stealth features. More like a bloated F117A.

10-4 on CSpan.

Hey, Donwhite! Well, that was my thought, too, when I read Gulfstream. I laughed at thought of "bloated F117A" Q1&2, no, maybe AF looking at UAV's? (very humble uneducated opinion)

You know, this just popped into my brain re NK. I remember thinking during talk of war with Iraq, thinking wait Kim Il-sung is talking about sending missiles to America and that would be the West Coast, hello anybody listening, guess not as Washington DC is on the East Coast!

Originally posted by donwhite

The other day a person who had been to NK spoke on CSpan2 and explained how much better an infrastructure the NK had than the American people are led to believe by both White House inspired CIA prop and the lazy American media. Comparing NK to E Germany, he said NK was more advanced and could fit in easily with South Korea in a unified country. America has decided we do not want the 2 Korea’s to unify.

Ever see this photo mosaic of the earth at night before?

Earth at night

This isn't the best version I've seen, but it still shows why the above statement about north korea being a better place than the U.S. government lets on simply is not true. Almost the entire earth is ablaze with lights, but the entire area where north korea is located is dark. No lights, no civilized society. Makes South Korea look like it's an island.


[edit on 6/13/2006 by centurion1211]

The north korean leader has the largest collection of porn in the world, and thats a fact. I guess hes so mad he cant get none.

posted by desert
Hey, Donwhite! Well, that was my thought, too, when I read Gulfstream. I laughed at "bloated F117A" Q1&2, no, maybe AF looking at UAV's? [Edited by Don W]

Good point, Desert. The USAF is getting deeper into UAVs but part of the advantage is the UAVs are less well equipped than an AWACs for example, so that the loss of one to ground fire is not a grand tragedy. After all, a drone is still a drone.

I remember thinking during talk of war with Iraq, thinking wait Kim Il-sung is talking about sending missiles to America and that would be to the West Coast, hello anybody listening, guess not as W-DC is on the East Coast! [Edited by Don W]

I’m still curious how a poor country like NK can obtain the missiles, train crews, maintain and launch one, all on their budget. But I remain skeptical of an ICBM from NK. The last missile NK fired ran out about 1,500 miles which got Japan’s attention OK, but was about 6,000 miles short of the US. If NK is able to leap forward like that, then we need to think of them as an ally, not an adversary. Just think, the US, the NK, and the Vietnamese. A Triple Entente.

posted by centurion1211
This isn't the best version I've seen, but it still shows why the above statement about North Korea being a better place than the U.S. government lets on simply is not true. Almost the entire earth is ablaze with lights, but the entire area where north Korea is located is dark. No lights, no civilized society. Makes South Korea look like it's an island.

This is why NK is so intent on getting 2 or 3 good nuclear reactors for the production of electricity. If Kim Jong Il buys a couple abandoned Ruskie ICBMs, sort of as scrap, then jury rigs one to work, ipso facto, he is in the game with the big boys! It is not consistent with NK being without lights yet they can make nuclear bombs and now fire off ICBMs they must have got from somewhere. They surely did not make them in NK.


[edit on 6/13/2006 by donwhite]