Bible god or Satan, who's killed more people?

I keep asking this question to those who worship bible god, but I get no answer.

IMO, Bible god has wasted WAY more people than the devil. I don't have too much time now, but I'll start with the flood myth. Here, bible god basically genocides the human race. Not sure how many people were supposedly alive then, but let's say they were at least in the tens of thousands.

I'll come back later with more examples, but for now, bible god is way out in front.

As far as I know, 'satan' hasn't killed anyone. At least not as is accounted in the bible.

As far as charging God with killing off the whole human race in Genesis, if you consider that viable information, then from the same source we are also told that God gave life to the human race. Seems to me like that's his perogative--that's just me, though...

How about us? Mankind? How many men have men killed?

Murders in the US:
1990-1994: 119,700

American Civil War:
1861-1865: 620,000

WWI:
Somme: 306,000
Verdun: 305,000
Passchendaele: 150,000
Gallipoli: 130,000
Lemberg: 125,000
Battle of the Frontiers: 115,000
2nd Aisne: 86,000
2nd Somme or Lys: 80,000
2nd Marne: 80,000
3rd Aisne:64,000
2nd Artois: 62,000
2nd Arras: 60,000
1st Ypres: 60,000
2nd Champagne: 57,000
Meuse-Argonne: 50,000
11th Isonzo: 50,000
Tannenburg & Masurian Lakes: 37,000
3rd Isonzo: 29,000
10th Isonzo: 43,000
1st Marne: 20,000
Caporetto: 14,000

WWII:
Leningrad: 850,000
Stalingrad: 750,000
Moscow: 719,000
Kiev: 678,000
1st Smolensk: 535,000
Voronezh-Voroshilovgrad: 371,000
1st Belorussia: 375,000
2nd Belorussia: 350,000
Kursk : 325,000
Rzhev-Vyazma: 272,000
2nd West Ukraine: 270,000
North Caucasusy: 262,000
Berlini: 250,000
1st West Ukraine: 189,000
Battle of France: 185,000
Lower Dniepert: 173,000
Königsberg 168,000
Donbass-Rostov: 157,000
Okinawa: 148,000
Normandy: 132,000
Budapest: 130,000
2nd Smolensk: 108,000
Chernikov-Poltava: 103,000
Manchuria: 92,000
1st Baltice: 83,000
Polyarnoe-Kareliae: 74,000
Battle of the Atlantic: 73,000
Korsun Pocket: 55,000
Voronezh-Kharkov: 55,000
Crimea: 45,000
Seelow Heights: 42,000
Iwo Jima: 28,000
Saipan: 30,000
Guadalcanal: 27,000
Imphal: 40,000
Battle of the Bulge: 38,000

Vietnam:
Tet Offensive: 56,000

Lesser Wars within the last 200 years:
Philippines Insurgency (1899-1902): 220,000
Russo-Japanese War (1904-05): 130,000
Balkan Wars (1912-13): 140,000
Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922): 250,000
Spanish Civil War (1936-39): 365,000
Franco Regime (1939-75): 100,000
Abyssinian Conquest (1935-41): 400,000
Russo-Finnish War (1939-1940): 150,000
Greek Civil War (1943-49): 158,000
Yugoslavia, Tito's Regime (1944-80): 200,000
First Indochina War (1945-54): 400,000
Colombia (1946-58): 200,000
Romanian Communist Regime (1948-89): 150,000
Burma/ Myanmar Civil Wars (1948 et seq.): 130,000
Lebanon (Israel, Shiite, PLO) (1975-90): 150,000
Cambodian Civil War (1978-91): 225,000
Kurdistan (1980s, 1990s): 300,000
Bosnia and Herzegovina (1992-95): 175,000
Somalia Civil War (1991 et seq.): 400,000

US Holocaust of the American Indians:
(1775-1890): 350,000

Hitler’s Holocaust of the Jews:
Auschwitz, Poland: 1 200,000
Treblinka, Poland: 800,000
Belzec, Poland: 600,000
Majdanek, Poland: 360,000
Chelmno, Poland: 320,000
Sobibor, Poland : 250,000
Jasenovac, Yugoslavia: 78,000
Mauthausen, Austria: 70,000
Buchenwald, Germany: 65,000
Stutthof, Danzig: 60,000
Ponary, near Vilna, Lithuania: 40,000
Gross-Rosen, Germany: 40,000
Odessa, USSR: 36,000
Babi Yar, near Kiev, USSR : 34,000
Flossenburg : 30,000
Rumbula Forest, outside Riga, Latvia : 27,000
Pinsk, Belorussia, USSR : 16,000
Kaunas (Kovna), Lithuania : 15,000
Dneprpetrovsk, USSR : 11,000
Simferopol, Crimea, USSR: 10,000

Genocide, Tyranny and Massacres: :bash:
Sudan (1955-72): 500,000
Uganda, Idi Amin's regime (1972-79): 300,000
Vietnam, post-war Communist regime (1975 et seq.): 430,000
Iraq, Saddam Hussein (1979-2003): 300,000
Kryzwolka, Poland (death of Soviet POWs at German hands: 194-): 46,000
Leningrad, USSR (urban siege: 8 Sept. 1941-27 Jan. 1944) 641,000
Changchun, China (urban siege: May-Sept. 1948) 330,000
Nanjing, China (civilians and POWs by Japanese: 13 Dec. 1937-Feb. 38): 260,000
Kolyma, USSR (Soviet GULAG: 1930-mid 1950s): 500,000
Bykivnia, near Kiev, USSR (Stalinist burial site, 1930s): 200,000
Warsaw, Poland (urban uprising: 1 Aug.-2 Oct. 1944): 200,000
Kuropaty, near Minsk, USSR (Stalinist massacre site: 1938-39): 150,000
Stalingrad, USSR (urban battle: Sept. 1942-31 Jan. 1943): 140,000 civilians
Berlin, Germany (urban battle: 16 April-7 May 1945): 100,000
Vorkuta, USSR (Soviet GULAG: 1932-62): 100,000
Manila, Philippines (civilians by Japanese: Nov. 1944-Feb. 1945): 100,000
Hiroshima, Japan (nuclear strike by US: 6 Aug. 1945): 92,000
Tokyo, Japan (air raid by US: 9 March 1945): 84,000
Nagasaki, Japan (nuclear strike by US: 9 Aug. 1945): 45,000
Hamburg, Germany (air raid by UK: 28-29 July 1943): 42,000
Kmorowo, Poland (death of Soviet POWs at German hands: 194-): 42,000
Stalingrad, USSR (German air raid: 23 Aug 1942): 40,000
Breslau, Germany (urban battle: 1945): 40,000
Dresden, Germany (air raid by UK & US: 13-14 Feb. 1945): 35,000
Hama, Syria (urban uprising: Feb.1982): 10,000
Katyn etc., USSR (massacre of Polish POWs by Soviets: April-May 1940): 15,000
Vinnitsa, Ukraine (Stalinist massacre, 1938): 10,000
Buchenwald, East Germany (Soviet concentration camp: 1945-50): 10,000
Bautzen, East Germany (Soviet concentration camp: 1945-50): 16,000
Cambodia Khmer Rouge killing field (1975-79): 16,000
Bitlis, Turkey (massacre of Armenians by Turks: June 1915): 15,000
Berlin, Germany (air raid by US: 3 Feb. 1945): 25,000
Sook Ching Operation, Singapore (massacre by Japanese: Feb-March 1942): 25,000
Königsberg, Germany (urban battle: 9 April 1945): 25,000
Guty, Poland (death of Soviet POWs at German hands: 194-): 24,000
Bataan, Philippines (abuse of POWs by Japanese: 9 April-May 1942): 23,000
Herat, Afghanistan (Soviet air raids, March 1979): 20,000
The Blitz, London, UK (German air raids: 7 Sept. 1940-May 1941): 20,000
Pforzheim, Germany (air raid by UK: 23-24 Feb. 1945): 18,000
Trebizond, Turkey (massacre of Armenians by Turks: July 1915): 17,000
Belgrade, Yugoslavia (German air raid: 6 April 1941): 17,000



*Please keep in mind, this is only a partial and approximate list.

:shk:

I don't see that we are in any position to point fingers.

Originally posted by truthseeka
I keep asking this question to those who worship bible god, but I get no answer.

IMO, Bible god has wasted WAY more people than the devil. I don't have too much time now, but I'll start with the flood myth. Here, bible god basically genocides the human race. Not sure how many people were supposedly alive then, but let's say they were at least in the tens of thousands.

I'll come back later with more examples, but for now, bible god is way out in front.

The Biblical flood destroyed human/fallen angel hybrids. But if you want to know who has killed more people, the answer is people. People are responsible for killing more people than any other cause. Some may use religion to further their agenda, but bottom line, it's still people who are responsible.

Edit to fix tag

[edit on 6/9/2006 by darkelf]

Clearly, god. Satan, in the bible, doesn't have any power or effect. He pops up, once, maybe twice, and doesn't kill anyone in the process. God specifically orders the slaughter of entire tribes, or personally destroys entire cities. Clearly, from the bible, God has killed more people than Satan.

In popular usage, Satan has been greatly magnified, into a super-power in the world, who controls people, causes evil, etc, but thats not satan in the bible. He's just a worthless thing that trys to trick one or two people.

I think everyone is missing the point. Satan is simply the personification of evil in mankind. The question doesn't make any sense. The old testament God was responsible for plenty of deaths. In the book of Joshua alone there are entire cities wiped out (men, women, children) in the name of God. However, even given that, it's still a drop in the bucket to the amount of death caused throughout history by the evil of man.

Hmm, If Satan (the opponent) is just an aspect of mankind, mankinds Shadow if you will, then why is it's opposition (god) not just considered an aspect of mankind as well? Why is God a literal being, while Satan is a figurative being? Wouldn't it stand to reason that if satan is just an aspect of man, then god would be the opposite aspect of man?

What I wonder is this, if you don't mind answering, anyone:

Why are you criticizing a god you consider man's idea? If dark is an illusion, then so is light. Or death, whatever you choose.

Why does it matter if 'biblegod' killed more men than we have, especially if you believe he is not for real?

If that's so, then this is a pretty grim picture, indeed.

Because then we have only ourselves to blame.

Yeah I can't recall Satan ordering death, unlike the biblical god who is full of hatred.
I love Satan!

God has never killed any one. God gives every one eternal life, to live on for all eternity. So you are never truly dead, this world you just shape your destiny. If you read the bible you would know this. God just doesn’t go around killing people, God gives you free will. Those city’s he destroyed, and flooded he gave the people warnings. God warned his true followers on earth and they got out. God destroyed the corrupt and evil, not the innocent. Every one was warned, and had a bunch of time to get out. So now I hope you are more informed.

Originally posted by ProjectX1986
God has never killed any one. God gives every one eternal life, to live on for all eternity. So you are never truly dead, this world you just shape your destiny. If you read the bible you would know this. God just doesn’t go around killing people, God gives you free will. Those city’s he destroyed, and flooded he gave the people warnings. God warned his true followers on earth and they got out. God destroyed the corrupt and evil, not the innocent. Every one was warned, and had a bunch of time to get out. So now I hope you are more informed.

What?

That's bogus. Bible god killed a lot of people in the bible. And, how was a warning going to save you from a global flood? Where would you run?

And, I don't buy the power of control over life he created. Hell, that's even MORE evil if you kill someone just because you gave them life and you have the power. My point is that people talk about how evil Satan is and how he's so bad, but he doesn't seem like the epitome of evil to me.

And, why can't I discuss something I don't believe in? Guess I can't talk about the new X-Men movie, because it's not real.

Originally posted by truthseeka
And, why can't I discuss something I don't believe in? Guess I can't talk about the new X-Men movie, because it's not real.

You can discuss anything you want to, no doubt. But, say you choose to discuss the X-men, who are not real, in your estimation (mine, either), still you would do it from the perspective of their world, right? As far as who did what and to whom, why, etc…

Which, in saying that, I realize that I imposed my reality upon the reality of the discussion from the general viewpoint, which is ‘bible,’ so I will strike my previous reply from the record, so to speak, and approach it from the mutual perspective.

Originally posted by truthseeka
That's bogus. Bible god killed a lot of people in the bible. And, how was a warning going to save you from a global flood? Where would you run?

Well, that was the idea; it would seem, according to the bible, that there was no place to run—for a reason. He killed them because they were evil in their hearts - from what is written.

And, I don't buy the power of control over life he created. Hell, that's even MORE evil if you kill someone just because you gave them life and you have the power.

But what if it were you, as God, and you created something that turned out to be evil—a group of beings, and that group was doing terrible things to each other, and wouldn’t stop when you told them to?

My point is that people talk about how evil Satan is and how he's so bad, but he doesn't seem like the epitome of evil to me.

Okay, that’s what a lot of people say. But does the bible say Satan is evil? That’s the perspective, remember?

Any other approach and the discussion dissolves into yet another futile and immature battle of ‘my belief is more valid than yours,’ and I don’t think that was your purpose, since you’re not an antagonizer, from what I can tell from reading your posts. But, since you don’t buy the power of control over life he created, does that mean you don’t buy the idea that God created life, or just that God created something he wasn’t intending, or was unable, to control? Because if you don’t believe God gave life, then why even ask why he ‘kills’ people, according to your impressions of ‘biblegod?’ Do you see what I am getting at with this?

We have different beliefs, so to approach your question with curiosity and a wish to exchange ideas, we must find a mutual, neutral ground that is one not established as ‘real’ for either one of us. Which seems to be the world of ‘biblegod.’

Here's the thing, Annie.

I think the problem is assigning omniscience to a being, even a deity. Omnipotent is not too lofty a power, but I dunno about omniscience.

See, to answer your question about what would I have done if the people I made were evil and wouldn't listen to me, I wouldn't have created them in the first place. By knowing everything, I would have known my creation would have become evil and that I'd have to genocide them via drowning, a pretty bad way to do it, as they would suffer.

I'd look stupid if I said "I'll give them a chance to change" when I already knew how the events would play out. I'd look sadistic if, knowing what would happen, I elected to create and subsequently destroy them anyway.

That's one of my points. You're a pretty sick being if, knowing everything, you did this anyway. And that's just one example of bible god, the all knowing, killing people when he knew they would displease them before they did the things that displeased him.

God is God. He alone is in charge of when someone is born and when someone dies. He decides when a life begins and when it ends.

The enemy of mankind is satan and those who follow him.

Ephesians 6
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

satan and our seperation from God have caused alot of killing. God in Genesis 6 did flood the world and bring about the death of people. There were also other beings that were killed in this flood. That was an act of judgement on the world. God has had to deal with alot of the problems satan and man bring about and as such has had to act as judge. He has dealt with some of them in ways we do not understand. But that is why He is God and He alone has all the facts of every circumstance.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Here's the thing, Annie.

I think the problem is assigning omniscience to a being, even a deity.
...
And that's just one example of bible god, the all knowing, killing people when he knew they would displease them before they did the things that displeased him.

Actually, truthseeka, I can totally relate to what you are saying. This was one of the many things I've had to work through, although maybe from a different perspective than you (although I'm only guessing because I don't know what is in your heart and won't pretend that I do).

You see, I've never really had a choice, when I came upon these things which don't make sense to me, because although I can't see any reason to sacrifice whart I consider my God-given common sense in order to believe something incongruent about the same God--the problem I had, more than anything else, was not being able to even talk myself out of believing in God--even when faced with things that don't even make sense according to a human's half-hearted, sometimes mean-spirited, mind, I never could just say, 'well then, I think it is all a crock of --wisconsin cheese spread So to speak. And decide not to put any faith or trust in what I could not see but could certainly feel.

I know, myself, that God certainly couldn't be less smart than I; and just like you, I would have never made creatures if I had known they would have to come to such a futile end. It is cruel and selfish and everything God is not supposed to be. And yet, I trusted my heart more than the bible, because that's where my true belief comes from, and God has never felt like anything but love to me. No one ever seems to promote that, so I know it's just what I felt.

So I just decided it didn't matter--either I wasn't fully understanding (very likely) or else it was perhaps due to the fact that the bible is inspired (IMO), but it still was written by humans who weren't perfect and lived in a far different time that I live in now. Finally, it worked itself out in my mind, to my satisfaction, and it wasn't anything I pressed toward finding out. It became clear on its own, but only recently, after 30 or so years of having to put it aside. It's all about perspective, I think.

At any rate, the idea of a worldwide flood (not all things flooded but all parts of the world affected) may prove itself as true possibility before most of us begin to understand why things have been written as they were...with the ice caps melting at the rate that they are, I think it may be very soon a question in some people's mind whether or not we are evil and deserve catastophe. This time the idea of blame seems to be 'global warming'--even in modern days it would seem man blames himself for what he really has no control over, in the first place. Is it that evil of us, to love our cars and electricity more than the Earth? How could we know? How can we be sure it is our fault? I doubt it is 'fault' of any sort, and I don't judge any of us, for I truly see the Earth as a living thing, as a whole and it cycles through change, just as everything else. It's not the first time the ice has melted, and no doubt it won't be the last.

To everything there is a season...

Originally posted by truthseeka
That's one of my points. You're a pretty sick being if, knowing everything, you did this anyway. And that's just one example of bible god, the all knowing, killing people when he knew they would displease them before they did the things that displeased him.

But you're not understanding the nature of God or of omniscience/omnipotent/omnipresent. God doesn't exist in a linear way. He didn't create the Universe like a model train set and then sit back and watch it work. God created Time as well as Space. The Big Bang and the Apocalypse happen all at once for Him. He sees it all in a single moment. There is no "before" or "after" for God. You're placing the limits of human perception on an imortal deity. That always leads to trouble.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Hmm, If Satan (the opponent) is just an aspect of mankind, mankinds Shadow if you will, then why is it's opposition (god) not just considered an aspect of mankind as well? Why is God a literal being, while Satan is a figurative being? Wouldn't it stand to reason that if satan is just an aspect of man, then god would be the opposite aspect of man?

I agree that our concept of God is too literal. How are we to understand something so powerful that it can create the Universe? My perspective is that God represents the positive of the Universe. All that is perfect and wonderful reflects God's true image. Hell and Satan are not the opposite of that. They aren't equal. Satan is the personification of Mankind's rebelious nature against what we know in our hearts and souls is right, regardless of religious. Most belief systems have a concept of negative after-life and they're eerily similar. The Underworld of the Egyptians isn't that far removed from the Hell of the evangelical Christians. Again, my belief is that "Hell" is simply the absence of God. If in the afterlife you find your soul so far away from all that's good in the Universe, and have in effect been "abandonned" by God (though really it's the other way around) that you're basically stuck in a plane that's totally absent of any positive energy whatsoever. Hell. Or the check-out line at Wal-Mart. One or the other.

QA, I didn't say I don't believe in God...just not bible god.

I was raised Baptist, and, after years of having questions unanswered, I let the Christian thing go. Therefore, I have no need to twist my own thinking to justify clearly barbarous acts.

SK, that added nothing to my question. Bible god still killed a ton of people, according to the bible. Satan killed none, as far as I can tell. But, I guess not even a god is above being corrupted by a ton of power...

Dbrandt, you're just blaming Satan like most Christians do. Bible god chooses who lives or dies, but it's the devil's fault that he killed all those people? Give me a break.

In case y'all are missing this, Bible god flooded the world. Nearly every person...man, woman, child, baby, old person, drowned. Hell, even animals that didn't do a damn thing were drowned (thanks for pointing that out, dbrandt). If that isn't sick to you, I don't know what to tell you...:shk:

[edit on 12-6-2006 by truthseeka]

[edit on 12-6-2006 by truthseeka]

Originally posted by truthseeka
QA, I didn't say I don't believe in God...just not bible god.

Well, I didn't think you were an atheist, but I couldn't rightly recall, so I tried not to make assumptions.

But now I understand where you are coming from and I relate to it, myself--despite my present day bible fanaticism, it is really only something I've gotten into the last few years--and somehow it just came to be, because my history related to religion is similar to yours, and I really never saw a need to try to reconcile these things, as I said--my trust in God was always secure, and I know that it is our heart that is the true means for communications, not the bible.

Whatever reason it was that led me to become immersed in studying the bible is the reason of whatever purpose it is going to serve--because it is all so much clearer to me now--although it still hard to explain to others (and I find that the mixed up human interpretations seem to be everyone's preference, that subscribe to the bible as some sort of verification for religion so really no one cares what I have to say, anyway)

I don't think it is my reason, however, in fact, I know that it isn't, because I never depended upon the bible to validate God in any way, and it didn't bother me or cause me confusion or a need to latch on to this or that school of thought....

The coolest thing about the bible, these days, for me, is that God has proven the bible to me--and it's really a matter of huge misunderstandings that are made into monsters by people and their religions--most people think that the bible is the way to God, but God's way to us in through our hearts. Whatever the purpose, I know that some day it will become clear to me, as well...

Satan in whatever personification you decide to make of it, has brought humanity a sense of sanity for one. Because Satan was the first to challenge authority. Thank you Satan, you rule my world, and god bless you, amen

Originally posted by laiguana
Satan in whatever personification you decide to make of it, has brought humanity a sense of sanity for one. Because Satan was the first to challenge authority. Thank you Satan, you rule my world, and god bless you, amen

I don't think you realize what you are saying. Because of mankind's agreement with the lie of satan, that we don't need God we can be our own "god", we have mass murders, genocide, planes used as bombs, famine, disease, rape, murder etc.