So the Gov. Destroyed WTC, but Why?

Originally posted by MMC

the explosive to the actual steel structure itself...wouldn't you?

Not necessarly, but then, there was only a gypsum wall between the central core and the interior of the building.

You'd go through that in no time...you could even cover it up quite well, considering it was going to be demolished.

www.gieis.uni.cc...

[edit on 18-6-2006 by MMC]

This is completely fallicious information. You have no basis for implying its accurate.

What are you basing this statement on?

Not necessarly, but then, there was only a gypsum wall between the central core and the interior of the building.

In your mind..which is where your infomation comes from..what are the steps involved in a controlled demo?

In the site you posted. Is that the same Mark McCarron that is the musician?

[edit on 18-6-2006 by Vushta]

Originally -posted by Vushta
You may be surprised, but I agree with your statement. People who profit from the current system have too much invested in the military based economy to "give peace a chance". Enemies must be created or the blank checks stop. Unfortunately in the process we have created REAL enemies..vicious enemies.

But this has no connection to an "inside job" to blow the towers and serves as a distraction from any real dialog for change.

I am not surprised you're not surprised by my comments, but I am surprised you don't see this connection with 9-11.

It makes me even more suspicious of your motives I'm afraid...

The Pentagon is aiming for “full spectrum dominance” of the Internet. Their objective is to manipulate public perceptions, quash competing points of view, and perpetuate a narrative of American generosity and good-will.
The War Department is planning to insert itself into every area of the Internet from blogs to chat rooms, from leftist web sites to editorial commentary. Their rapid response team will be on hair-trigger alert to dispute any tidbit of information that challenges the official storyline.

informationclearinghouse.info...

Who can we trust anymore? You?

Who can we trust anymore? You?

LOL. You would be better off trusting me than some on the board.

MMC--am I making you nervous?? .

This is completely fallicious information. You have no basis for implying its accurate

Ah...the non sequitur...I meet yet another sockpuppet account...

Where's your proof?

You have no basis for implying that it is not.

In your mind..which is where your infomation comes from..what are the steps involved in a controlled demo?

I'm not here to give you lessons in demolition. A small feasibility study demonstrating that it is physically possible for 9 tonnes of explosives to be planted in the WTC within a short period using small group is all that is needed at this point.

Additional Notes 1: Calculations on the Number of People Required to Plant 20,000lbs of Thermite or Explosives
www.gieis.uni.cc...

What I said earlier is accurate...

If you have a group of 50 people in the background financing an operation, they don't need to know the specifics...just knowledge that can be used for insider trading.

To carry out the operation at a physical level, 33 people...with possibly 10 people as inside men in key positions. That's relatively small compared to the scale of operations in the world of organised crime.

It could suggest that its a small group of extremists numbering less than 500 in the US, hiding behind the patriotism of millions.

www.gieis.uni.cc...

There is no need for anywhere near the "thousands" you imply...

In the site you posted. Is that the same Mark McCarron that is the musician?

No...actually amature physicist...

I wrote the C# port of the Burkhard Heim Mass Formula Software to calculate the mass of neutrinos...

sourceforge.net...


www.gieis.uni.cc...

I wrote the C# port of the Burkhard Heim Mass Formula Software to calculate the mass of neutrinos...

Then you most likely are the person I thought.
You're spamming your own site.

Ahh Yes..your "scientific work" with neutrinos--and pyramid power--and "inertons"--and harmonic fields--and numerology.

This is from another site:


Unfortunately, Mr McCarron has been reluctant to answer in-depth questions on his scheme for fear of giving away too much information.

Unfortunately, despite all the detail that appears on the site, there is no coherent solution or philosophy to it plus an absence of critical thought.

When one poster called Brian Hamilton stood up for Mr McCarron's work, it unfortunately soon appeared that Brian (using Hotmail address bhamilton20030201) had only very recently registered as a member and had sent an email from exactly the same IP address as Mr McCarron had sent one from minutes earlier. This was extremely unusual since both came from NTL and NTL uses dynamic IP addresses. So either Brian lives with Mark or, just possibly, Brian is Mark.

Reviewing parts of Brian's post would appear to give a clue: "I think everyone on this list should carefully consider what Mr McCarron is proposing. I understand the point about Mr McCarron being annoying and posting frequently on the matter. On the other hand, 'GIEIS' is only what I can describe as being a perfect architecture. It is funny the contrast between the creator and the architecture."

And: "'GIEIS' is the simply one of the best proposals we have ever encountered. All I would suggest is that you do not attempt to judge the system based upon its creator."

These multiple people living in Mr McCarron's house and using his computer at the same time have also cropped up on another website: Atlantic Rising. Atlantic Rising is unafraid of confronting and debunking accepted truths, although to the ignorant observer it would appear to be filled with conspiracy theories and pseudo-philosophical and mystical junk.

Mr McCarron has been extremely busy sharing his insights on Atlantic Rising, posting (under his name at least) a remarkable 263 posts in June alone. Describing himself as an IT specialist, alternative researcher and primer theory developer, he lists his interests as primer technologies, Giza Necropolis, IT, anti-cryptography, EMR, microwaves, radiowaves and religion.

One of those may appear familiar - "Giza Necropolis" is also the name of Mr McCarron's GIEIS homepage. In fact, GIEIS bears a striking resemblance to the two words. Could the Global ISP Email Identity System be nothing more than the first two letters of "Giza", the last two of "Necropolis" and an "e" thrown in for good measure?

What's even stranger is that until very recently the GIEIS site contained a similar hugely complex but logically incoherent site regarding the Giza Necropolis. What is the Giza Necropolis? The Great Pyramid of Egypt.

Mr McCarron has previously described himself as an expert on Giza Necropolis and was until recently an advisory board member of the Great Pyramid of Giza Research Association - it can be found at www.gizapyramid.com. Mr McCarron's details have since been removed but director of the association Dr John De Salvo


Here is just a summary of this masterpiece of numerology: "In short, we have made an unbelievable discovery. We have proved the existince [sic] of a highly advanced pre-flood culture. The pyramid and the Giza Necropolis are a way of establishing communication through Universal mathematics, geometry, and a time capsule approach. What they have been trying to tell us is there is an asteroid 1/3 the size of Earth heading towards us. It is approaching on the day time side of the Sun. It will be visible from Earth in 2004 in the direction of Polaris. Key sites around the World are a triangulation of it position."

I wrote the C# port of the Burkhard Heim Mass Formula Software to calculate the mass of neutrinos...

www.mhonarc.org...

And Mark's response:

Mark's Response:

'GIEIS' would generate in excess of £50 Billion per year, also it would employ around 2.26 million people. 'GIEIS' will pay back, with commercial interest rates, all sums used to establish the service. Furthermore, there are extensive long-term benefits for partnering with 'GIEIS' to establish it.

OH MY!!..50 billion a year?? Where can I send my investment money??



[edit on 18-6-2006 by Vushta]

I also know my physics...someone posted these references citing that they showed that the WTC could collapse within 2 hours as a result of a surface attack causing a 'eutectic reaction'.

Severe corrosion of carbon steel and low-alloy steel in sulfur-containing atmospheres starts at temperatures as low as 500 deg C. According to the Dechema CORROSION HANDBOOK (1991 Edition), steels scale at 7.5 g/m^2/hour in atmospheres containing as little as 0.09 vol % sulfur (as H2S) at 500 deg C.

That would be only 15g per square meter removed from the surface in two hours.

If we now examine the density of steel:

7.85 g/cm3
hypertextbook.com...

So, if we have a steel plate 1mx1m and a depth of 10cm:
100cm (H) x 100cm (W) x 10cm (D) = 100,000 cm3

We now translate this into our formula:

Mass = Density x Volume
www.gmhsscience.com...

100,000cm3 * 7.85 g/cm3 = 785,000g
Mass = 785Kg

I don't think losing 30g or so from a surface attack is going to make much difference in two hours...

Similarly, data reported by G. R. Colby in Materials Performance Vol 13(4), page 20, (1974) show that A106 and A 213 carbon steels scale at a rate of 50 microns per day at 500 deg C in 0.05 vol % SO2. This rate increases to about 1000 microns per day at 900 deg C.

1 micron = a metric unit of distance equal to one millionth of a meter. Also known as a micrometer.
www.unc.edu...

1000 microns = 0.001 per day or 1cm every 1000 days (3 years approx.)


www.gieis.uni.cc...

[edit on 18-6-2006 by MMC]

Vushta,

Why are you trying to discredit MMC by posting information about him personally when it has no bearing on the subject matter?
That my friend is not cool IMO.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Assuming of course that all the evidence that has been posted here on ATS to show the Government could be proven absolute fact and the government was behind 9/11, what have they gained?

In the years since 9/11 we have had 2 wars, maybe a third on the way, a not so stable economy, soaring oil prices, republican party has lost alot of support from their own members, including myself. How have the people behind this benifted in anyway from 9/11 directly? Bush has had alot of power consolidated in him but he can still only be president until 08.

I created a thread back on 6-11-2004 attempting to answer the same question; Why?Here is the link

Originally posted by ANOK

The government/military need to have an 'enemy' to justify it's overbearing existence in our lives and Worlds stage.
Without an enemy, real or fabricated, 'we the people' would not tolerate what the government and military do. Over spending, intrusion in our privacy, ever more laws etc...
Having an 'enemy' to protect us from gives them more power and control. The gov and military protect the rich wealthy elites, who actually run the government. Without this protection (and propaganda/conditioning) 'we the people' would be a major threat to the rich.

So we get the 'war on drugs', 'war on crime', 'war on terrorism', 'the cold war' etc...
We all know that drug use, crime and terrorism is higher now than ever. It seems these 'wars' don't work, but they do. They have the indented result, fear.

Instilling fear into the population, by making us feel constantly at risk, gives the government more power. Power is what it's all about.

B4 Von Braun's death in 1977, he believed he was under threat. So he gave a US enemy's list to a lady he met in the early 1970s by the name of Carol Rosin:

American "Enemy's List" to Sustain War Mode and Pentagon Budgets

Soviet Union
Terorrists
Asteroids
Extraterrestrials

Werner von Braun Anticipated Terrorists, Asteroids and ETs on American "Enemy's List

As President Eisenhower had warned about the threat of the "military-industrial complex" to America's future, Dr. Werner warned that space should be kept free from intrusion by that same military-industrial power. Carol left her teaching and went to work for Dr. von Braun in 1974. He was her mentor until he died in Alexandria, Virginia on June 16, 1977.

Rosen:
Dr. von Braun would have tears in his eyes every time – and he repeated this continuously to me when he talked about us in the galaxy – he would say 'with a hundred billion stars in our galaxy alone. What would make us think that we are the only life form?' That was a very typical, repeated quote.

The other one that he would say is that he knew that we must have peace in space in order to bring the truth in. The only time he used the word, 'extraterrestrial' and 'alien' – and he did this repeatedly as well – was when he spoke to me about the formula for war. That included the fact that when I entered the industry, we were in a supposed Cold War with Russia.

He would say, 'Let's start here where you are.' There are continuous wars and enemies identified in order to perpetuate these wars, always with the ultimate goal of seizing the high ground of outer space to dominate and control the minds of people on Earth so they would not be given the truth, truthful information about who we really are in the universes.

Question:
THAT IS WHY HE GAVE YOU AN ENEMY'S LIST THAT WOULD BE PERPETUATED?

Rosen:
That's right. He repeated this continuously. He would say that starting where I entered the industry with the supposed Russian threat, but never actually existed ­ the Russians were made to be the enemy. Then there would be terrorists, Third World country threats. there would be an asteroid threat.They might even say to us to try to influence the public into believing that there are many reasons for why we should put weapons in space. There might be a reason to protect our assets in space.

But, the real one that he was always holding off on and would say again with tears filling his eyes every time he said this to me repeatedly was that the last card they are holding is the 'alien card,' the extraterrestrial card and none of them are hostile. In any way he could say those words, the intonation was always on,'None of them (alien races are hostile. It's all a lie.'So, in other words, all the enemies that have been presented to us along the way ­ it's a lie with always the intention of seizing the high ground to keep the truth from us.

Question:
DID HE GIVE YOU ANY SPECIFICS ABOUT WHO IN THE UNITED STATES WOULD STAND TO GAIN THE MOST FROM PERPETUATING A GAME OF WAR FOR MONEY AND POWER?

Rosen:
Yes, he described it not as a blame on just a certain group. He described it as the inexorably linked military-industrial-lab-university-NASA and other space agencies-intelligence community-government complex­ that it was intertwined, but there was a group that knew all of it. He did not act as if he knew who it was.

Question:
FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, THE GREATEST SECRET THAT WERNER VON BRAUN WOULD BE HIDING WOULD BE THE FACT THAT THE EXTRATERRESTRIAL BIOLOGICAL ENTITY IS A REALITY. BUT HIS CONCERN WAS THAT INSTEAD OF BEING HONEST ABOUT ITS MOTIVATION, THAT THE U. S. WOULD ULTIMATELY USE ETs AS ANOTHER THREAT IN ORDER TO PERPETUATE BUDGETS FOR THE PENTAGON?

Rosen:
Not just for the Pentagon, but aerospace industries, labs, universities and anyone else who has a job and makes a profit from keeping this a secret. Although most of the people in the industry don't even know there is this big secret of all time

Except that it's not the influence of just people in the Pentagon. This is some how, as he would put it, inexorably linked to all the facets of profit-making, of so-called security and defense mechanisms, of people who just need a job to survive and pay for their kids' college education and also to keep the public stupid.

[edit on 18-6-2006 by evilution]

Originally posted by mclarenmp4
Vushta,

Why are you trying to discredit MMC by posting information about him personally when it has no bearing on the subject matter?
That my friend is not cool IMO.

I disagree with your opinion.
Adhering to various forms of pseudoscience has everything to do with the subject.

Would you feel the same about it if a CT posted the past deceptive tactics of someone advocating the official conclusions reguarding 911?

I don't think I posted anything personal. Hes spamming his own site and has done so on other sites.

Actually, Vushta, my work was related to treating the Great Pyramid as a form of Time-Capsule. I was analysing the possibility that the architects used 'mathematical based ideograms' as the basis of their structural designs.

As for 'inertons', well you may take that up with Dr. Volodymyr V. Krasnoholovets. You can write to him here:

Place of work:
Department of Theoretical Physics,
Institute of Physics,
National Academy of Sciences,
46 Prospect Nauky,
UA-03028 Kyiv,
Ukraine;

My reply to that article you posted is a lot better:

We've found the perfect solution to spam: Mark takes the stand
www.theregister.co.uk...

My background is solid. In any case, its irrelevent to the subject at hand.

Hahah sorry Vushta, I misinterpreted your statement, I doth no not of what I was thinking. Accept this apology as my apology.

MMC I'm not sure what your conclusion is exactly, you are saying that there is no way that the steel would have melted and lost structure to colapse in such a short amount of time? That I believe if it is in fact what you are saying, the Empire State building was hit by a plane as well years ago, suffering from fire and being an older building it did not fall. The only credible argument for it being the planes fault is the shock of the plane slamming into the building. The thing is though the two planes struck in two diferent areas of the two towers, and yet they fell in identicle fashion with what looks like the uppermost floor, far above the impact falling first. Also MMC if you are as good at pysics could you explain why the floors impacting floor after floor would not have slowed them down cradally instead of falling freefall speed? it should have taken hours, maybe a day or two for the building to come down at all if one floor hit the next, burned then fell to the next and the next. To say it fell at free fall speed, everyfloor above impact would have given out at the exact same time. To have this happen to three skyscrapers and the pentagon all on the same day, being the only skyscrappers in history to sucumb to fire, is far to many coinsidences.

[ Bush has had alot of power consolidated in him but he can still only be president until 08.

But he has a son...

Who can we trust anymore? You?

Gov infiltrators on here? Say it ain't so!


I have heard a rumour that thermite charges were installed in the building in case of an emergency. This rumour I have no way to verify but as the source was from someone who was a volunteer rescuer on the scene, I thought it worth asking if anyone else had heard this theory

Originally posted by Nikolaos2030
How many people have benefited.

A small list:
Arms dealers
Banks
Construction companies
Oil contractors
Gas contractors
Oil rig builders
Transnational corporations
Documentary makers (Discovery, National Georgraphic, Adventure 1, News agencies)

Just to name a few who have benefited not just from 9/11 but most wars too.

some other people benefited from the put options on both American Airlines and United Airlines just before 9/11.

Lots of people benefited. You just have to look.

[edit on 4/6/06 by Nikolaos2030]

You forgot to mention conspiracy theorists

No there's a conspiracy theory for you: 9/11 was orchestrated by conspiracy theorists in order to raise their profile and get more people to belive in their conspiracy theories ......

SHHHHHHH Its working

Originally posted by Vushta

By the "not all of whom were our allies" comment, I meant that the result, evidence, and investigative methodology used to arrive at the conclusions of the causes of the WTC collapses was peer reviewed by people and institutions from around the world..not only our allies.

If thats what you meant?

Peer reviewed how? Could you link me to some of these studies please? I haven't heard of any type of investigation from Russia, China, Iraq etc.? Plus, how would they do these investigations...especially if they are our "non-allies"? We as American citizens can't even peek at the construction documents because of national security, but you're saying that our enemies got a chance to see them? How did our enemies get a chance to study the steel? China maybe because we sold most of it to them....in a very suspicious manner I might add.

Conclusion: Show me these studies and peer reviews.

America is a war based economy and has been ever since WWI - fact

America needs war - fact

America has been fighting WWIII for a long time, but instead of invading individual countries, now labels are used and artificial conflicts created to keep the US constantly fighting under the pretext of bringing peace and democracy to the world

Cold War (Communism vs. Capitalism) is virtually over - just China, Vietnam and Laos left and now they are diplomatic friends with USA

Ideological War (Muslim vs. Christianity) was the way forward, and since 9/11 this has been superseded by the ‘War on Terrorism’ - the so called ‘never ending war’

Whether 9/11 was manufactured by the government or merely allowed to happen with government knowledge and inaction, it was perfect for the US economy, Halliburton, Bush Senior, Boy George and all of their cronies

A never ending war = unlimited potential for investment and industry and the beauty of it? All subsided by the American Taxpayer!

What a scam!

Now I don’t know for sure if thermite charges brought down the towers, or if a missile hit the pentagon or not, but I do know that the evidence available indicates (to me at least) clear foreknowledge

i.e. even if the official story is true as so far that WTC 1, 2 & 7 were just exceptionally weak and collapsed due to fire and structural stress, but THE ATTACKS WHERE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN IN ORDER TO FURTHER THE US WAR AGENDA FOR THE 21ST CENTURY

If the 9/11 attacks were a genuine crime, surely they should have warranted the most thorough criminal investigation in known history.

But what did we get? Bush blocking and blocking and finally allowing the publishing of the pathetic whitewash that was 9/11 Commission Report

Fishy? That stinks!!!

Just my $0.02


[edit on 22/6/2006 by alienanderson]

Originally posted by Vushta
There is only debate among the CTs and people who have not researched the facts.
Doesn't it seem odd that not one...not one ..reputable structural engineering facility or individual involved in failure analysis has any problem with the conclusions of the final report of the collapses? Are THEY in on it too? Add another thousand to the conspiracy.

Being afraid for your livelyhood and reputation as a proffessional does not equal being In ON IT. And don't tell me the government doesn't pressure people to find what the government wants them to find. If you believe this doesn't happen then I suggest you watch a PBS documentary called "Frontline - The Darkside". It's all about how Cheney's regime pressured the CIA and other intellegence groups to find a connection between Osama and Sadam. Funny how they started this 2 days after 9/11 huh. And 9/11 wasn't used as a justification for Iraq....come on.

www.pbs.org...

It won't be available until 5 pm today but I highly recommend you watch it. Or at least look around on the PBS site that I linked to.

This is a red herring. Building 7 was heavily damaged by debris of the towers collapse even though it was a distance away and barriered by building 6....hardly "in the buildings own footprint"

No, that is the red herring. What we should be saying is fell symmetrically around it's footprint. Natural collapses do NOT do this. They either partially collapse or they collapse to one side because of something called resistance. To fall symmetrically around the footprint you need little to no resistance. But, since you mentioned building 7, how did that fall? Hmmm...into it's own footprint.

I was refering to the after the event conclusions, evidence, and methodology of the investigations themselves. They were peer reviewed by scientists and facilities from around the globe.

Source please.