Haditha is the tip of the iceberg - Iraq atrocities continue

Originally posted by andy1033
americas and english call the iraqis animals and are trained to call them animals, and american and english people think it is great.

A bold statement like this is in need of a credible source, does it not?

Oh, and the American and English people think this would be great? Really? Wow, what people did you poll, and what states had the biggest response?

Move along...

Originally posted by GODFLESH

Originally posted by andy1033
americas and english call the iraqis animals and are trained to call them animals, and american and english people think it is great.

A bold statement like this is in need of a credible source, does it not?

Oh, and the American and English people think this would be great? Really? Wow, what people did you poll, and what states had the biggest response?

Move along...

it is on the video from the bbc, with the american soldier saying we are trained to think of them as animals. i assume the bbc video is real.
watch the video, then come back

The video does cut out for me about halfway through, but just enough where the scout sniper says they were animals. HE NEVER stated the military taught him directly to call them animals, that was his portrayal.

Originally posted by GODFLESH
The video does cut out for me about halfway through, but just enough where the scout sniper says they were animals. HE NEVER stated the military taught him directly to call them animals, that was his portrayal.

I do not know that I would trust that video all that much. It was made by someone who is clearly anti war. People like that would never give you a straight story since they want to promote their agenda.

I have one nephew who has done three tours there and not once has he said one thing that even came close to what he is stating. One would think if it was that bad He would have stated at least one thing even if it slipped out by accident, but that never happened; so I am not all that convinced with regard to this one solder.

Originally posted by shots
I have one nephew who has done three tours there and not once has he said one thing that even came close to what he is stating. One would think if it was that bad He would have stated at least one thing even if it slipped out by accident, but that never happened; so I am not all that convinced with regard to this one solder.

Maybe your nephew doesn't want to talk about it. Maybe he's ashamed, maybe he thinks you'll think less of him or the military. Maybe you should ask him if there were attrocities done. He'll most likely tell you that there were murders, but it was done in the name of God and country, so in his mind it is okay. I obviously don't know your nephew, but I await his answer.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Maybe your nephew doesn't want to talk about it. Maybe he's ashamed, maybe he thinks you'll think less of him or the military. Maybe you should ask him if there were attrocities done. He'll most likely tell you that there were murders, but it was done in the name of God and country, so in his mind it is okay. I obviously don't know your nephew, but I await his answer.

He has been very open about it and no need to wait for an answer; I already know it. I asked him if some of what the media has claimed was true and he stated right out he had not seen anything like they are claiming. I have no reason too doubt him either.

originally posted by smokenmirrors

Historically many have confessed to crimes they did not committ. In my country one is innocent until PROVEN guilty.

But in Iraq, US servicemen are allowed to execute a justice far more summary. They say so themselves, in the video. In fact, justice isn't even the point. If you can take a photograph of the corpse with a shovel nearby, the guy was planting an IED.

Did you even look at the video? None of these guys are Jesse MacBeth. They're ordinary people who don't like what they did. A court of law (which this is not, in case you hadn't noticed) allows witness testimony. This is such testimony. Are you seriously trying to make out that what you see in the video is FAKE confessions by unbalanced people? It's such an off-the-wall allegation that it's laughable.

Ask the so called insurgent to recite the basic tenets of the Geneva Convention, see what his/her response is.

This, like so many of your points, is so illogical and irrelevant it's almost laughable. The Western nations - particularly the US and UK - drafted the Geneva Convention and should be expected to abide by it. I'm not paying tax monies to fund the insurgents, I'm not responsible for what they do. But there IS some moral responsibility attached to being a citizen of a country, and that means that if there's a policy that's egregiously unfair or wrong, you oppose it.

Plus as I've said, the insurgents are trying to prevent the foreign takeover of their country. Collaborators get shot in that kind of situation. Quite rightly, they are referred to as traitors to their country. In many societies the penalty for treason is death.

But my main point is, put simply, I don't want my tax monies supporting war crimes. I don't think that's unreasonable. I also think it's appalling that the US managed to persuade Blair to go in on this nasty little adventure.

however, the beasts which behead innocents shall not merely fade into the woodwork if unchallenged

How many beheadings have taken place? The two or three I know of have garnered far more coverage than the daily death toll from US troops shooting anything that moves after they've come under attack. Funny that. And one of the beheadings might well have been a PSYOPS tactic. There's even an ATS thread about this.

And again, on a broader level, you don't understand the difference between opinion and testimony. Iraqis have been saying since the beginning of the conflict that this has been going on. Incident after incident has been reported. This is not opinion. It is a FACT that these incidents have been reported, and have, until this most egregious and hard-to-ignore example, been ignored. Their accounts are testimony, not opinion.

It's all opinion. How did Iraq provoke the US to attack it, pray tell? Unless you can give a good case that Iraq PROVOKED THE US TO ATTACK then the notion of an unprovoked war belongs in the realms of fact rather than opinion.

As to the legality of the war, Blair, for example, had to trawl around a bit until he found a legal opinion that the war would not be illegal. The legal opinion that formed the basis of this has never been released. But it is a matter of uncontested fact that the US will not sign up to the ICC and considers itself above the concerns of other countries' citizens. When Bush visited the UK a couple of years back, the Secret Service wanted blanket immunity from prosecution should they kill anyone. Thank God we weren't so supine that we rolled over for this absurd request.

originally posted by GODFLESH
A bold statement like this is in need of a credible source, does it not?

Like the BBC, perhaps? Or is the only credible source you recognise Fox News?

The BBC does have a reputation to maintain. They mostly lie for the UK government, over things like the murder of Dr. David Kelly.

originally posted by GODFLESH
The video does cut out for me about halfway through, but just enough where the scout sniper says they were animals. HE NEVER stated the military taught him directly to call them animals, that was his portrayal.

If you didn't see it through to the end, how can you be justified in capitalising the word NEVER? Answer: you can't. He did make that allegation. It's what the military does. It trains people to think that way so they don't have a problem in killing.

It is odd, though, that after posting this both the video links should be compromised.

Maybe the first crime was asking soldiers to be Policemen on a beat.
Train them to be one thing, and ask them to be something else?
Then we act surprised, when they don't behave the way we expect.

We really should have kept the war tactics in place, until the whole country was in control. THEN, turned it back over to the Iraqis..

But, what do I know...Armchair quarterbacking..

So taking these reports as just that reports for now. The truth will come out I am sure or at least hopefull. My question though is about these troop rotations. I have heard that some of these troops were on their third deployment to Iraq. Does anyone else find this crazy? I mean the more we keep sending the same guys back the worse things will get. They spend a year getting shot at and being told to shoot back, they go home where they cannot have had time to deal with that type of life and then get sent right back into the fire.

I heard the other day there are over 2 milliion active military and reserve in this country. Maybe we need to spend time getting more of them into the mix. Let's not see rotations like this again and hopefully we can avoid situations that might be caused by the constant re-deployments. Why don't we consider training naval and airforce troops for ground work instead of abusing the marines and army? Don't even get me started on the deployment of the national guard, that is just insane.


Oh and if we think this is bad, wait until some of those guard troops from Iraq are on the Mexican border. How will we react if there are 24 dead mexican illegals laying in a field? It is highly possible with the stress we are putting these guys under.

rich23, indeed, I did watch the video. I know nothing of the young men in it, nor the reporter, nor the circumstance under which the interview was done. It appears you and I see the world through vastly different lenses, so be it.

Good day sir.

Originally posted by rich23


But in Iraq, US servicemen are allowed to execute a justice far more summary. They say so themselves, in the video. In fact, justice isn't even the point. If you can take a photograph of the corpse with a shovel nearby, the guy was planting an IED.

Did you even look at the video? None of these guys are Jesse MacBeth. They're ordinary people who don't like what they did. A court of law (which this is not, in case you hadn't noticed) allows witness testimony. This is such testimony. Are you seriously trying to make out that what you see in the video is FAKE confessions by unbalanced people? It's such an off-the-wall allegation that it's laughable.

The only thing that is laughable here is the fact you take what was said on the video as the truth. How do you know what they said is true? Keep in mind they were not under oath they also clearly have an anti war agenda

What I am trying to say here is wait until the investigation/s and or trials are over before setting judgement. It is real easy to do so with an agenda, but it takes a man to wait and get all the facts out before saying they are guilty. What you are doing is wrong without knowing all the evidence

Reports of this nature have been percolating out of Iraq in a steady stream since the occupation began. They form a coherent and internally consistent picture.

How do I know what is said is the truth? I look for internal consistencies and I'm reasonably good at gauging whether people are lying or not. And the fact that they have an anti war agenda is obvious. To suggest it means they are lying is not logical.

You are simply in denial. How long will it take? There were Germans in the thirties and forties who supported Hitler in his wars of conquest and genocide just as blindly. Even when they were told the truth they refused to believe it. Some things don't change, I guess. If your Authorities tell you something is true, you believe it unquestioningly. It's a weird thought-control phenomenon.

Originally posted by rich23
Reports of this nature have been percolating out of Iraq in a steady stream since the occupation began. They form a coherent and internally consistent picture.

How do I know what is said is the truth? I look for internal consistencies and I'm reasonably good at gauging whether people are lying or not. And the fact that they have an anti war agenda is obvious. To suggest it means they are lying is not logical.

So according to you, they are guilty because your logic thinks they are???? :shk:

Again your statement is down right laughable without knowing what really took place. :shk: :shk:



Now let me address your ignorance in this statement.

How many beheadings have taken place? The two or three I know of have garnered far more coverage than the daily death toll from US troops shooting anything that moves after they've come under attack. Funny that. And one of the beheadings might well have been a PSYOPS tactic. There's even an ATS thread about this.

Man admits beheading '100s'

I posted several other links in another thread that showed 30 were beheaded and another said something similar, when I find them I will post them Yeah one or two be-headings :shk: your ignorance has been denied, but then you consider people guilty on the word of others with out evidence so what can I say?



[edit on 6/2/2006 by shots]

Originally posted by skippytjc
Hey Rich, you must be a very busy guy.

I can imagine the work you must be putting in on all posts about the thousands and thousands of indiscriminate civilian deaths caused by the terrorists and insurgents. I mean, if a couple of possible instances involving the USA cause you this much angst, I can only imagine how much of an uproar you must be in over the countless insurgent civilian murders.

A: The killings in Iraq are 100% the responsibility of the USA, as they are a direct result of our illegal invasion.

B: Does the fact that Iraqis are commiting atrocities somehow pardon American Death Sqads, er I mean soldiers, from commiting war crimes?

I don't "support the troops". This is a big mess and it is all going to come out as these young people come back, digest what they have seen and develop the communication ability to tell us about it. It won't be pretty.

Oh god another link to Information Clearinghouse.com

Is there someone who works there that is paying people to post on this board?

I know US sucks, UK sucks...those schools they built and medical supplies they flew in to Iraq were only done so they could have healthy citizens for military target practice.

ICH is just a good site that collates many different news sources.

You might not have noticed but in fact all the actual video was made and originally broadcast by the BBC. What, are you going to complain because they're not Fox News?

Just because ICH pull it all together doesn't mean you can ignore the original sources.

Here are the links I stated I would post above.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Hmmm imagine that so many beheaded all at once

And no I am not making light of the beheadings. I am making light of some peoples ignorance.

I like hearing about things like U.S. soldiers slaughtering innocent civilians. Out of all the stories you have heard, all the whispers, there is never a conclusion that satisfies me.

So, U.S. soldiers are accused of killing innocent civilians, who should we have do the investigation? How bout U.S. soldiers? Then we will get a fair, accurate, and unbiased view of what really happened.

Do black people go to court and get a jury full of blacks? Or do whites get all-white juries? Hell no they don't.

This government answers to nobody but itself. If they want to tell us there is nothing bad happening there, they'll tell us that and we will believe it. I would wager that major news networks have no control over their war coverage. You can almost tell when the reports come in that the newscasters are compromised.


All this rant is saying is this government lies like a rug. None of us know the truth, and unless we join the cause...we never will

The truth needs to get out as much as possible. Keep up the good work rich!

You have voted rich23 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

This kind of stuff happens in ALL wars, just because the US troops beleive they are fighting a war on terror, does not mean they are on the moral highground.

This isn't a war on terror, it's a war of terror.

Originally posted by shots
Hmmm imagine that so many beheaded all at once

And no I am not making light of the beheadings. I am making light of some peoples ignorance.

Oh, you're just such a wag.


If we're playing the numbers game, you're not even close. 45 against the hundreds, possibly thousands, of people shot by US troops acting in a free-fire zone? I said I could only remember a couple of famous beheadings, Nick Berg being one and the guy from Liverpool being the other.

But what you're linking to is examples of two serious problems in Iraq:

Death squads in Iraq which seem to be being trained and financed by the US, and were standard procedure for the US to run throughout central and South America. Training for these death squads was done in Fort Benning, Ga., known as the School of the Americas. In fact it became so notorious it had to change its name to the Western Hemispheric Institute for Security and Co-operation. And of course the other problem is the issue of sectarian violence. Now it does seem that the US and UK have been using covert operations to provoke exactly this kind of violence.

for example there is a thread about how the US have used Iraqi policemen as inadvertent suicide bombers here. It seems that people like yourself are not the only ones to take a skeptical view of events in Iraq:

The news that US soldiers are to be investigated for the alleged killing of civilians in Haditha six months ago has done little to allay the scepticism of many ordinary Iraqis.

Thaer Juma, a lawyer and director of a non-government organisation in Baghdad, said: "These crimes are happening every day in [the western Iraqi cities of] Haditha and Ramadi, but the international community knows nothing about them because there are media blackouts on the operations, and there are no international humanitarian NGOs to record these transgressions."

Omar Saed, 55, a university lecturer in Baghdad, said: "We'd like to send a brief letter to all the world: 'Please stop the American troops killing any more people.' We need full cooperation from all to help us avoid any more incidents like what happened in Haditha and Ramadi and all the [other] Iraqi cities."

Omar al-Hadi, a businessman in Baghdad's affluent Mansour district, said: "Why are the Americans making a big deal of this now? Don't they know how many thousands of Iraqis have died at the hands of the foreign forces, the terrorists and the militias, and how nothing is ever done about it - apart from occasional expressions of regret?"

But these are just ordinary Iraqis talking. People who live there, and have to deal with the reality of the mess that the US has made of their country every single day of the week, 24/7, no holidays, no going home after their tour.

Obviously a biased source, though, right? Ignorant, too - I mean what kind of university lecturer would a raghead make, anyway? What's he going to lecture about? Sand? [/sarcasm]

Hmmm... getting slightly weird things happening on edits. I know I linked to the article originally but here you go: link

Hope this works now...

[edit on 2-6-2006 by rich23]