Haditha is the tip of the iceberg - Iraq atrocities continue

Oh my god... where to start with this one!

Originally posted by pawnplayer
There is nothing wrong with nationalism

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

Enough said!

Originally posted by SteveR
Oh my god... where to start with this one!

Originally posted by pawnplayer
There is nothing wrong with nationalism

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

Enough said!

Try telling that to the Iranians. Maybe try telling it to the Koreans, too. Preach it to the Serbs, the Russians and... oh, yeah, the Chinese while you're at it, brother!

They are the most devoted to nationalism. You're preaching to the wrong choir here.

I find it hard to beleive that any of those countries are more devoted to nationalism, correction, jingoism, that the current US government and media-brainwashed portions of the population. We have all seen a recurring theme from the white house, of bullying other countries or using any means necessary to safeguard and promote the country's economic interests. When you boil down the political statements and manuevers, there are no "good" underlying reasons. So, my friend, I think I'm on target with the preaching.

Originally posted by SteveR
I find it hard to beleive that any of those countries are more devoted to nationalism, correction, jingoism, that the current US government and media-brainwashed portions of the population. We have all seen a recurring theme from the white house, of bullying other countries or using any means necessary to safeguard and promote the country's economic interests. When you boil down the political statements and manuevers, there are no "good" underlying reasons. So, my friend, I think I'm on target with the preaching.

Did somebody tweaked your ears to post THAT?! ppfftt!

Hey.. when you can come up with a solid reply, let me know

Rich32...read your reply.

Sorry I don't have more time to write and respond. Busy, and watching too much World Cup, it's killing my sleep. I'll try to give you a good response later. Keep linking to some good sources, I think the US military and the US people have realized that things need to get wrapped up over there.

Sorry no God Save the Queen from me either...but I am rooting for England (though your goalie makes me nervous).

Mabey someone mentioned this but I thought it was kind strange that they got Zarqawi about a week after the news came out about the mishap, or massacre in Hadita, & now its not in the news. or very little! But hey, I can kinda feel for these soldiers who are trained as killing machines, & set up to obey the powers that be, see thier friend killed & go off on a killing spree to relieve tension! Not that its right, but as someone metioned earlier, war is hell, & until peace covers the earth its gonna get alot more hellish! We have seen nothing yet!

A report came out today

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A sergeant who led a squad of U.S. Marines accused of killing 24 Iraqi civilians at Haditha told his lawyer the unit did not intentionally target civilians, followed rules of engagement and did not try to cover up the incident, The Washington Post reported on Sunday.

The newspaper said Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich, 26, told his lawyer several civilians were killed in the November incident, when the squad went after insurgents firing on them from a house. But Wuterich said there was no vengeful massacre and described a house-to-house hunt that went awry in a chaotic battlefield, his lawyer said.
"It will forever be his position that everything they did that day was following their rules of engagement and to protect the lives of Marines," said Neal Puckett, who represents Wuterich in the ongoing investigation of the incident.

"He's really upset that people believe that he and his Marines are even capable of intentionally killing innocent civilians," he said.

Full report here

They are saying there never was a cover up etc.
personally i still think they were in the wrong for the way they went about this innocent people were killed including children, somthing needs to be done.

here are exerts of emails sent to a reporter of fox news regarding his article on june 6th about haditha incident i dont know if this has been posted before so sorry if it has

Hundreds of e-mails continue to pour in regarding the alleged Marine atrocities in Haditha. One of the more interesting ones comes from Jason, who writes:
I personally know a Marine who was there when the incident at Haditha happened. Those individuals who automatically jump to conclusions and think ill of our troops will be proven wrong again. God bless them."

Many of you have written in support of our troops, and many of you agree with David, who says:
"Do not judge lest ye be judged — or better yet — don't judge another until you've walked a mile in his shoes."

1SG Raymond, USAR, puts it this way:"To judge someone on something that you know absolutely nothing about is doing nothing but showing your ignorance."

Some think even if Haditha proves false, our troops will inevitably do things they shouldn't. John B. writes:

"It's impossible to think that during the fog of war that mistakes aren't going to happen. I can't imagine, that at 19 or 20 years old, after seeing my friend be blown apart by a roadside bomb (that, by the way, the locals knew was there), I would be able to maintain a level of decorum that would prevent the loss of innocent life."

Ken B. adds, "Always remember that war is chaos. And in chaos, unfortunate and often nasty things will happen."

And William reminds us, "War is Hell. This isn't 'Pin the Tail on the Donkey.' They are there so we can be here eating at McDonald's, going to work and driving our cars without fear of IEDs or car bombs."

Many wrote with high praise of our Marines, including hundreds of veterans, some like Neil from Indianapolis who served in Vietnam:

"I can assure you this is not the Corps way of doing things. People who have never been in a war zone have no idea of the mental stress and pressure, especially when you are fighting an enemy with no scruples, uniforms, or conscience."

Retired Air Force Vet Dal R. bets:

"Haditha gets more play in the media around the world than the grisly discovery of severed heads in fruit boxes along an Iraqi highway. How many Iraqis died daily under Saddam's rule and out of sight of the camera and the public?"

And Veteran Larry T. says, "To speak against anyone in uniform while sitting at home is an insult to the entire military."

Vietnam Vet John C, writes, "Nobody should get away with straight out "murder"......but in conflicts like this it isn’t readily defined. I have seen 10-year-olds kill, women kill and old people kill. You have to ask yourself "them or me."

more email responses

Pawnplayer: your argumentative skills - or lack thereof - are amply demonstrated in your exchange with SteveR. As he puts it "when you can come up with a solid reply, let me know".

But, hey, just two points. You lecture me about "choice", then immediately you use the term "military indoctrination"... what do you think that means, "military indoctrination"? Another phrase for the same thing might be "thought control".

(At this point, if I wanted to respond to your posts at your level, the page would be COVERED in eye-rolling and laughing smilies. As I find this about as grown-up and logical as Eric Cartman - though far less original and entertaining - I shan't bother. It does make you look like someone who confuses rhetoric with logic, you know, but... never mind.)

And, talking of thought control... one of the things that I find particularly tragic about certain US citizens is the way they are utterly and completely blind to the extent to which they have been, from a very early age, indoctrinated, or to put it less kindly, brainwashed. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states and to the republic for which it stands...." How many times have you said that phrase in your life? How early did you start? Add some stirring martial music and pretty soon your heart swells with pride, you begin to tear up at the mere mention of Old Glory...

I was astonished at the number of songs there are about the US flag, and the number of patriotic songs that there are... there was one particularly pompous one that went "...and I'll stand UP... [long gap] ...next to you and something something something..." I generally stopped listening after that so I can't remember the words. I think it might have been called "God Bless the USA". What a tawdry piece of music it was. It was just funny watching people work themselves up into this swivel-eyed, rabidly frothing patriotic frenzy. Probably kind of the same feeling that you get from watching people sing "The workers' flag is deepest red..."

Meanwhile, on the sane side of the planet, pretty much everyone else in the world is looking at you and going "WTF"? They're pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth?? Btw, nice quote from Einstein, Steve... and here's another one:

"Flags are the saddest proof that man is still a herd animal."

But Einstein, it's not like he was a clever guy, right pp?

All that thought control means that now, as an adult, you are particularly prone to follow whoever waves the flag in front of you. Ahh, thinking for yourself, why bother? It's hard, it makes your brain hurt, let's... oh, looky! There's the FLAG, the piece of cloth to which, over and over again, I have pledged my allegiance since before I even knew what allegiance was! I'll just trot along with the rest, reassured by my conviction that AMERICA IS THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!! GO USA!!!

And I can make myself feel much better and get rid of that nagging voice of suspicion that says "psst! you're just being a sheep!" by calling anyone who suggests that the situation is not quite as rosy as I think, rude names! I can suggest that they're "internationalists", whatever that means, but it's got to be like "communist", right? And they're cowards, and stupid, because they're not AMERICANS!!!!

It's like dealing with a case study from Wilhelm Reich's The Mass Psychology of Fascism.

Coming back to "choice", there was all that eye-rolling stuff about going to guard the US embassy in Switzerland... well, I grant you that after the military indoctrination (your phrase, remember!), many soldiers' ability to make free choices will have been severely impaired, but ultimately they have to decide whether it's worth it to go abroad and kill people. And that depends on whether they believe all the BS about it being a war to set the Iraqi people free.

And what we find is that those among them who have a vestige of conscience and independent thought left in their brains after all the indoctrination is done are having problems with the situation on the ground in Iraq, because they can see the discrepancy between the reasons why they were told they were there, and what's going on on the ground. And those soldiers turn out to be the guys on the video at the very start of this thread.

Meanwhile those who sit at home watching Fox and accepting uncritically the government line are cheering the babykillers and "supporting the troops", and thinking that they're being patriotic AND demonstrating independent thought.

The two are pretty much mutually exclusive. There are some people who can pull it off, but based on your responses to my posts, I wouldn't put you in that category.

You see, you'd rather attack me personally and call me a coward and stupid than address my points, or bring independently sourced material to support your claims. Your rhetorical response to a cogently argued post from SteveR does not, I'm afraid, demonstrate any powers of reasoning.

If you do not attempt to address the issues I shall regretfully have to put you on ignore. I'm here to debate with reasoning individuals, not trade insults. If I were to stoop to your level, I'd get a ban and I really don't want that. Please try and raise the level of your debate.

It's a lovely day and I'm going out... but before I do, I thought I'd post this:

This piece is a summary of five most commonly deployed crisis management propaganda tactics which the State and Media combine that we can expect to see in relation to the Haditha Massacre. Listed in a loose chronological order of their deployment, the tactics are: Delay, Distract, Discredit, Spotlight and Scapegoat. Each of the five public relations campaigns will here be discussed in the context of the Haditha Massacre.

I'd like to put together a much more coherent and thorough analysis of the press coverage of Haditha, but it's my birthday and I'm going out.

I may be some time.

Originally posted by rich23
If you look, that's why I said, "we get different propaganda" in the earlier post. We do, however, get some quite pro-US stuff: we are being encouraged to see Iran and Venezuela as threats. There was a Channel 4 piece on Chavez a little while ago that quite shocked me with its bias.

I understand what you mean. I will agree the method of ramming the propaganda home, and even the propaganda itself is somewhat different. But is the end result not the exact same? Have most of us not eaten their rancid meal like it was BBQ'd Chicken and Fresh Salad on a day like Yesterday? My point being, is our propaganda different somewhat only because of the differences of our two Regions (America and Britain), and their people, and Culture? What may work there, may not work here, and I'm guessing the differences are just adaptations of the same propaganda manipulated to best fit the populace.

Originally posted by rich23
But I do think that more stuff slips through here, particularly about the occupation of Iraq, though there is insufficient consideration of the legality of the whole enterprise. And we certainly don't get the kind of hideous slant that Fox and CNN put on things. When I was living in the US I was just gobsmacked by the gung-ho jingoism. A guy I knew from Poland commented on the run-up to the Iraq war by saying it was just like the kind of propaganda Russia would put out when they were getting ready to do something.

I totally agree with you about the hideous slant they receive, although in perfect fairness, some like the BBC and SKY News were not a great deal better. I remember seeing a report on BBC News several years ago, this was just after the Invasion, and some Iraqi's had set some Oil Fields alight, and the Reporter flew off the handle with some 3 minute diatribe about how the Iraqi's were stealing our Oil, and how we should smash them all in with bombs. Quite sick really. I'm sure others here could give a far better example of what I'm trying to say. I'm sure you must have seen some, Rich23.

Originally posted by rich23
Pawnplayer: your argumentative skills - or lack thereof - are amply demonstrated in your exchange with SteveR. As he puts it "when you can come up with a solid reply, let me know".

Nah, I told him to go f--k himself. I'm not going to waste my time debating with a NWO lover.

Originally posted by rich23
But, hey, just two points. You lecture me about "choice", then immediately you use the term "military indoctrination"... what do you think that means, "military indoctrination"? Another phrase for the same thing might be "thought control".

You've been indoctrinated in schools almost the same way people getting started in the military being indoctrinated for skill developments, arsenal awareness, leadership building, command tactics, logistic and strategic planning, team-building, etc. etc. I don't know where you get the impression of "military indoctrination" but you got it all wrong in your head.

Originally posted by rich23You see, you'd rather attack me personally and call me a coward and stupid than address my points, or bring independently sourced material to support your claims.

I did not call you a coward or stupid in this thread. Stopping putting words in my mouth, so to speak. I attacked you because YOU, rich23, branded the Marines as "babykillers". You get what you deserved. Nothing personally, YOU ARE WRONG in your own assertions throughout the whole thread.

Originally posted by rich23
If you do not attempt to address the issues I shall regretfully have to put you on ignore. I'm here to debate with reasoning individuals, not trade insults. If I were to stoop to your level, I'd get a ban and I really don't want that. Please try and raise the level of your debate.

I told you TWICE before that I cannot have a formal or rational discussion with someone who just called the Marines as "babykillers". That clearly, basing your past posts on this thread, demonstrated your bias and very one-sided thinking. You're not being reasonable and rhetorical, you allowed your private hatred and disdain for the USA to reveal in full anyway, judging from your latest post.

In fact, you're not a free-thinker at all, you're just 100% biased to the core.

Bye. Put me on ignore. I don't care.

Yes, I pledge my allegiance to the United States of America, the US Constitution and salute the Old Glory.

I give the finger to anyone who supports internationalism (globalism).

Back to the thread.

This is the latest account from the Washington Post, something that richboy might not wanted to consider and make his own spin out of it:

Marine Says Rules were followed

Staff Sgt. Frank D. Wuterich, 26, told his attorney that several civilians were killed Nov. 19 when his squad went after insurgents who were firing at them from inside a house. The Marine said there was no vengeful massacre, but he described a house-to-house hunt that went tragically awry in the middle of a chaotic battlefield.

"It will forever be his position that everything they did that day was following their rules of engagement and to protect the lives of Marines," said Neal A. Puckett, who represents Wuterich in the ongoing investigations into the incident. "He's really upset that people believe that he and his Marines are even capable of intentionally killing innocent civilians."

Wuterich's detailed version of what happened in the Haditha neighborhood is the first public account from a Marine who was on the ground when the shootings occurred. As the leader of 1st Squad, 3rd Platoon, Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, Wuterich was in the convoy of Humvees that was hit by a roadside bomb. He entered the house from which the Marines believed enemy fire was originating and made the initial radio reports to his company headquarters about what was going on, Puckett said.

Given the fact that the Marines were under attack with heavy enemy fire in Haditha, the Marines appropriately engaged and went house-to-house searching of armed insurgents hiding in the houses or rooms of the civilians who were also hiding as well.

The biggest problem to the Marines and the Iraqi security forces is the reluctance of the civilians to leave their home areas before advanced combat operations so they can root out the insurgents and the foreign fighters. The civilians in Haditha were warned repeatedly by the Marines, the local authorities and knew the consequences if they didn't leave or aiding/abetting the insurgents and foreign fighters.

If they didn't leave or heed the warning, it's their faults. If they were helping the insurgents, it's their faults as well. Even the local authorities have repeatedly told the civilians they can leave their home areas to temporary safe locations, sit out the whole operation until completion and they can move back into their home areas when the insurgency is purged out, the IEDs and weapons confiscated. Unfortunately, lives were lost in the firefights in Haditha thanks to the insurgents and foreign fighters refusing to leave or surrender.

Mod Edit: BB Code.

[edit on 11/6/2006 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by pawnplayer
I give the finger to anyone who supports internationalism (globalism).

I'm sorry, but that had me burst out laughing! LOL.

You're on ignore, son.. and while your bored, perhaps you should visit the nearest recruiting office? I hear they pay well for your sort these days. Plus, you can go shoot up the globalists! Yay!

Steve

I've had a really nice day, and returned to find a billet-doux from pawnplayer burning a hole in my inbox. Apparently I'm "very, very, very stupid" and... oh, a bunch of other stuff.

Oh well.

You didn't call me stupid or cowardly? (In the thread, that is. You certainly did in the U2U.) I'd say that statements like

They could be brighter and braver than you are.

or

Spinelessness is a sad trait to live with, huh?

count. And I'm sorry, but if you think that statements like

I told him to go f--k himself.

are paradigms of reasoned debate, then you need to raise your game.

As for the article in which (gasp!) the Marine Sergeant involved in the incident says they went by the book, well... to quote Christine Keeler, "he would, wouldn't he?" Accused man claims innocence, shock horror. It's known as CYA in the wider world.

This is why, in a just world, a jury would be able to weigh his statements against independently verified evidence and eyewitness testimony, and could decide either to believe the accused or the survivors of the atrocity. But that is NOT going to happen. The US military will investigate... and I'm now coming round to the idea that perhaps Haditha is too appalling to be allowed to go through under the "rotten apples" approach, and maybe the US military will exonerate those involved.

As it will be judge and jury in its own cause, however, the conclusions it reaches will be fatally compromised.

Here's another one.

Remember the pregnant woman and her cousin who were shot on the way to the hospital? Well according to this news report from inside Iraq, it seems there's even more to this story than first surfaced, and a cover-up is under way.

What was not reported, according to an Iraqi human rights investigator who spoke with IPS on condition of anonymity, was that both women were shot in the back of the head by U.S. snipers.

"I investigated this incident myself, and both of these women were shot from behind," said the investigator. "Nabiha's brains were splattered on her brother who was driving the car, since she was in the back seat."

The U.S. military said soldiers fired on the car after it entered a "clearly marked prohibited area near an observation post" after failing to stop despite "repeated visual and auditory warnings." The U.S. military said in a statement that "shots were fired to disable the vehicle."

The brother of the pregnant woman, Redam Nisaif Jassim, who was driving the car, told IPS that he neither saw nor heard any warnings by the U.S. military. Two men who witnessed the incident from a nearby home also said they saw no signs of any warning.

"These kinds of killings by the Americans happen daily in Iraq," said Jassim, "They gave no warning to us before killing my cousin and sister. Of course we know they have no respect for the lives of Iraqis."

It's bad enough that these women were killed. and if there was a man driving the car, it certainly makes sense that if he survived, then shots came from behind.

I wonder what the "investigation" by an independent body... no, wait, by the people who did the shooting... will reveal.

And more.... from Reuters' Alertnet:

*SUWAYRA - Police found nine bodies, including a 10-year-old boy, in a river near Suwayra, about 45 km (25 miles) south of Baghdad. The victims, shot in the head and chest, showed signs of torture. One severed head was also found, police said.

AL HASHEMIYA - U.S. forces killed seven militants with links to senior al Qaeda leaders in a raid near the area where Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was killed last week, the U.S. military said. It said there were seve

So we have death squads and more US killings - including two more children. How does this keep happening? And how do we know that these really were militants linked to AlQaeda? If the hit-rate at Guantanamo holds true for these cases as well, the odds are not good that they really were insurgents.

Do they ever fail to stoop to new lows? This is beyond sick.

I wouldn't explain it away by saying they are under too much pressure and strain. Afterall, just look at the attitude these people had before they even arrived..

img164.imageshack.us...

[edit on 12/6/06 by SteveR]