DHS Pork - Evidence That War On Terrorism is a Sham? (Op/Ed)

Originally posted by Muaddib
Have you followed up on how much of the money which New York was given in 2004 and 2005 was spent and what they spent it on?...

It's been pretty broadly communicated that the New York City per-capita amount has always been significantly lower than any other region.

Of the 46 cities that got special grants, New York City ranks 23rd per capita, getting $16 per person.
But residents of Fort Lauderdale, Fla., got $67 per person, and residents of Atlanta got $45.
www.nypost.com...

This has been the case since the "war on terrorism funding" began.

This has to do with some politicians whinning about not getting more money.

Unfortunately, I think you (and several others here) have missed the point of this Op/Ed.
This is not about NYC getting short-changed
This is not about an incorrect 2-by-2 matrix formula

You are only using speculation to try to prove something which is not real SO.

At the risk of coming off offensive (I'm really not trying to be, just raising a point for the sake of a productive discussion), I need to ask why you're active on a conspiracy theory discussion board? We are indeed experiencing a massive body of nearly 30-years worth of "conspiracy theory" speculation come to fruition these past three years. If it were not for that collective mass of material, I'd be expressing an opinion similar to yours. But we have the material... it has defined the evolution of conspiracy speculation from the Iran Contra scandal to today.

If you think that "terrorism is a sham"...then you have nothing to worry about, your state still got over $100 million dollars.....

More than anything else, I think this clearly expresses that the point is being missed. This is not about adequately protecting U.S. citizens against potential terrorist attacks. Setting up video surveillance in a small Alaskan town does nothing to protect against terrorism.


To me, this apparently politically-motivated distribution of funding that diverts a limited amount of dollars from proven terrorist targets is a clear indication of two key attributes of a reality many of us feared would unfold.

1) The evolution of the US police state.

2) The terrorism threat is manufactured to promote fear and allow control.

Corruption. That's the answer. This administration has not missed an opportunity to flaunt its corruption. I believe the interpretation of the redirection of funds based on anticipated election wins is most likely spot on.

Will the change of the guard correct things? It may very well do so, but not because of the party change, but because of the people change. The people in power right now are dangerous. I'll be glad when their names change. I don't have much hope of improvement no matter which party wins...I just want these particular people out. They've become megalomaniacs.

And even on this board you see the bizarre ignoring of what is happening.

Federal Corruption Is Not News

Sorry for not being more of a firebrand about these sorts of things, but I see this as just a small drop in a very large bucket.

The problem isn't so much that the federal government abuses its power -- it has always done that, right back to the very beginning (see the Alien and Sedition Acts, for example).

Rather, the problem is that the federal government has this kind of power in the first place.

It shouldn't. This was supposed to be a republic. But the seeds of its destruction were sown even before it was founded, and now we see a central oligarchy rising from the shambles of what was once supposed to be a loosely-knit union of sovereign states.

The concentration of power in Washington D.C. inevitably leads to corruption and tyranny. The abandonment of a true republic in favor of a monolithic, all powerful, centralized super-state is the real problem.

This is just one symptom of a much more grave illness.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

It's been pretty broadly communicated that the New York City per-capita amount has always been significantly lower than any other region.

Of the 46 cities that got special grants, New York City ranks 23rd per capita, getting $16 per person.
But residents of Fort Lauderdale, Fla., got $67 per person, and residents of Atlanta got $45.
www.nypost.com...

This has been the case since the "war on terrorism funding" began.

So i am supposed to take the biased rhetoric from a newspaper which starts the article from that same link you gave with, and I quote

D.C.'S STUPID SCROOGES SLASH NYC TERROR AID AND SPLURGE ON THE STICKS.....

Please.... Like that article doesn't reek of biased propaganda....

BTW, why in the world would NYC get money per person for protection agaisnt terrorism?.... Are the police going to protect every citizen in New York?.... Oh no wait, if they would have gotten more money per person than any other state, then some people would claim that is proof that they want to set up some sort of police state, since more money is being spent per person, it must mean they are trying to keep track on every person no?.....

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Unfortunately, I think you (and several others here) have missed the point of this Op/Ed.
This is not about NYC getting short-changed
This is not about an incorrect 2-by-2 matrix formula

It has nothing to do with some imaginary "2-by-2 matrix formula" SO. You can't even seriously consider that this must be some sort of conspiracy because New York did not get more money per capita than any other state... Half of the members in these forum would have claimed it is a conspiracy to keep track of everyone in New York city if New York got more money per person than other states....

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
At the risk of coming off offensive (I'm really not trying to be, just raising a point for the sake of a productive discussion), I need to ask why you're active on a conspiracy theory discussion board?

You want to know why? Well, because i have seen what such overreaction has gotten a whole nation into. There are more conspiracies out there, yet people like you don't want to believe that you have been sold a lie by liberal profesors who try to preach in many of our colleges and Universities that "socialism/communism" are "better systems", or "better economies", yet they don't tell you that those same principles, and that same propaganda which you are now trying to put forth in forums such as this one, has gotten about half the countries in the world into real dictatorships. And of course who is going to forget how well it is going in many of those socialist or communist countries even now...

You are now going to try to tell me this has nothing to do with what I am talking about, but we both know that is not the case. This agenda/propaganda which i am talking about has been creeping slowly into every level in our society, and a lot of people are believing those same lies which have destroyed so many lives and entire nations in the world.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
We are indeed experiencing a massive body of nearly 30-years worth of "conspiracy theory" speculation come to fruition these past three years. If it were not for that collective mass of material, I'd be expressing an opinion similar to yours. But we have the material... it has defined the evolution of conspiracy speculation from the Iran Contra scandal to today.

Yes, talk to people who have lived under Communism and have gone to college in the States and see what they tell you.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
More than anything else, I think this clearly expresses that the point is being missed. This is not about adequately protecting U.S. citizens against potential terrorist attacks. Setting up video surveillance in a small Alaskan town does nothing to protect against terrorism.

And what exactly is close to that Alaskan town?, i haven't been there but i know there are Alaskan towns which survive only because of the oil business, and there have been terrorist threats about attacking oil refineries, etc.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
To me, this apparently politically-motivated distribution of funding that diverts a limited amount of dollars from proven terrorist targets is a clear indication of two key attributes of a reality many of us feared would unfold.

1) The evolution of the US police state.

2) The terrorism threat is manufactured to promote fear and allow control.

Right, and I guess that it is not possible at all that the chatter which has been heard lately from terrorists could not, according to you, possibly be focused by some extremist moron/s (I am talking about terrorists here. ) wanting to attack more than only one state. It couldn't be possible at all that instead they want to make several attacks at once... that's not possible at all huh?.....

It's got to be only because "we are going towards a police state"... It doesn't matter if pretty much the same "spying", which some people are trying to use as an excuse to promote this idea that "the United States is becoming a dictatorship", had to be used several times in the past yet the United States never became a dictatorship...


[edit on 3-6-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Yes, talk to people who have lived under Communism and have gone to college in the States and see what they tell you.

It's interesting you say that, because I happen to know several who say we are no better than the corrupt regimes they left.

Originally posted by loam

It's interesting you say that, because I happen to know several who say we are no better than the corrupt regimes they left.

Really? have you asked them why they don't go back to those wonderful regimes they left?....

After all the biased opinion and propaganda still more people come to the United States, or die trying to get to the United States than any other country in the world...and they are all not poor people with no education, quite a few of them are better educated than some people in the States.

This is one of the few countries in the world, where anyone can make anything of themselves if they put their minds to it, and are willing to work hard for it. The same cannot be said of any Communist regime, or any socialist nation, in fact immigrants in socialist nations have less rights than immigrants in the United States. Yet, because there is spying trying to avoid any further terrorist attacks the United States is a dictatorship, and the war on terror is a sham because New York did not get even more money?....

---edited to add comments---

[edit on 3-6-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by loam

It's interesting you say that, because I happen to know several who say we are no better than the corrupt regimes they left.

Really? have you asked them why they don't go back to those wonderful regimes they left?....

After all the biased opinion and propaganda still more people come to the United States, or die trying to get to the United States than any other country in the world...and they are all not poor people with no education, quite a few of them are better educated than some people in the States.

This is one of the few countries in the world, where anyone can make anything of themselves if they put their minds to it, and are willing to work hard for it. The same cannot be said of any Communist regime, or any socialist nation, in fact immigrants in socialist nations have less rights than immigrants in the United States. Yet, because there is spying trying to avoid any further terrorist attacks the United States is a dictatorship, and the war on terror is a sham because New York did not get even more money?....

---edited to add comments---

[edit on 3-6-2006 by Muaddib]

People come to the US because the US's corruption has boiled over to the point that if they want to ever make money and life for themselves and their family they have to come to North America. In other words, the US stole all their money, and now they have to come here to "play the game" in order to get it back. So Brilliant. The system of US supremecy is definatly something to be adored, not that it is a good system but that everbody just goes along with it like we are simply part of a storyline just waiting to be played out.

Read "confesions of an Economic Hitman"

Muaddib, are you saying that you really buy into that American dream? I'm sure that you are right. There are a portion of the United States population that can actually realize those dreams. However, since they have no glass ceiling to contend with and possibly they live in gated communities, are they more valuable citizens to protect from terrorists than the rest of us?

Originally posted by Muaddib
Really? have you asked them why they don't go back to those wonderful regimes they left?....

That response is so typical of the faux-patriot mentality... You didn't like the answer, so you retort with a question that demonstrates your very disdain for the very American principle of freedom of expression. You're so busy denying the possibility of our flaws, you've become incapable of recognizing ANY peril from within. Label all dissent as bias and propaganda. Blindly believe that those who are in power have your best interests at heart. I do not share your blissful confidence.

In the 6000+ years of known civilization, man has NEVER gotten governance right. But yet, you somehow believe that we in this country have the secret sauce that eliminates the need for vigilance against those who might seek to subjugate us to further their own ends. History is littered with such foolish thinking.

Originally posted by Muaddib
After all the biased opinion and propaganda still more people come to the United States, or die trying to get to the United States than any other country

in the world...and they are all not poor people with no education, quite a few of them are better educated than some people in the States.

The immigrants I spoke of are quite well educated and are of considerable means. Your spurious misdirection that implies they regard their former regimes as "wonderful", simply because they happen to not share your Disney Land view of our own government's behavior, is ridiculous. Moreover, it is because they have personal experience with tyranny and corruption that they so readily recognize the dangerous waters we now navigate. But of course, you will dismiss such experience....

Originally posted by Muaddib
This is one of the few countries in the world, where anyone can make anything of themselves if they put their minds to it, and are willing to work hard

for it.

That is as it should be. But I think you will find MANY who legitimately think the reality otherwise.

Originally posted by Muaddib
The same cannot be said of any Communist regime, or any socialist nation, in fact immigrants in socialist nations have less rights than immigrants in the

United States.

*yawn*

That's like saying I should settle for one broken leg, instead of two... What is your fixation on immigrants in this discussion, anyways? Why are you using their former regimes as the benchmark for our own? I would think you would aspire for far better in this country, not just merely better.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Yet, because there is spying trying to avoid any further terrorist attacks the United States is a dictatorship?....

The list is so long, no amount of repeating it will obviously change your mind.


[edit on 3-6-2006 by loam]

Originally posted by loam

Originally posted by Muaddib
Yes, talk to people who have lived under Communism and have gone to college in the States and see what they tell you.

It's interesting you say that, because I happen to know several who say we are no better than the corrupt regimes they left.

I second that emotion.
At this point in time, Loam is absolutely correct. Except, of course, we have food to eat.

Originally posted by Muaddib
You can't even seriously consider that this must be some sort of conspiracy because New York did not get more money per capita than any other state...

How can you say that when you yourself quoted SO as saying the following:

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
This is not about NYC getting short-changed
This is not about an incorrect 2-by-2 matrix formula

Muaddib, your attempts at misdirection are being seen for what they are. You have no response to the true thrust of this Op/Ed which is the manipulation of fear and the dodgy book keeping that proves it. This is not about communism/socialism OK?!

How many government warnings from the last few years saying how the NYSE will be targeted, or Wall Street in general, were nothing more than fear mongering? The rhetoric doom and gloom hasnt abated from the criminal Bush administration but the money suposedly meant to thwart said doom and gloom has. Why is that?

I think loam was right on the money with his interpretation of how flawed your logic is. Ive nothing to add to that

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
At the risk of coming off offensive (I'm really not trying to be, just raising a point for the sake of a productive discussion), I need to ask why you're active on a conspiracy theory discussion board?

Originally posted by Muaddib
You want to know why? Well, because i have seen what such overreaction has gotten a whole nation into. There are more conspiracies out there, yet people like you don't want to believe that you have been sold a lie by liberal profesors who try to preach in many of our colleges and Universities that "socialism/communism" are "better systems", or "better economies", yet they don't tell you that those same principles, and that same propaganda which you are now trying to put forth in forums such as this one, has gotten about half the countries in the world into real dictatorships. And of course who is going to forget how well it is going in many of those socialist or communist countries even now...

So what you are saying is that you are infact a debunker, motivated to counter the "overreaction" from people taken in by lies from "liberal professors"? Why have you so vehemently denied the accusation that you are a debunker in the past?

[edit on 3/6/06 by subz]

Originally posted by Valhall

And even on this board you see the bizarre ignoring of what is happening.

Repeating oneself does get boring after a while, doesn't it? people don't want to listen, why would we keep yelling each other when we already know and those who alledgedly don't just plug their ears and shut their eyes?

People adore power, even if it turns on them. It's the spirit of empire

[edit on 3-6-2006 by Long Lance]

...as far as Omaha getting increased DHS $$$
and the larger decrease in NYc share of DHS $$ (lack of landmarks)

consider this paraphrase:
Omaha ranks 8th among the nation's 50 largest cities
in per-capita billionaires and Fortune 500 companies.

link to; www.omahachamber.org...

The logic for this realigment of terror-risk, and the reshuffle of funding
might well be based on the notion that AQ or whatever terrorist DeJur
would be hardpressed to outdo the spectacular collapses of several tall
towers in the WTC complex.

New targets, in new locations, with the potential to affect more
people with the immediate threat of terror & spectacular terror,
is how the 'enemy' operates...as we've been told over-&-over.

also, Terror-Funding-> is just one more method of reward or leverage
to be used by each administration &/or politicians

Originally posted by tom goose

People come to the US because the US's corruption has boiled over to the point that if they want to ever make money and life for themselves and their family they have to come to North America. In other words, the US stole all their money, and now they have to come here to "play the game" in order to get it back. So Brilliant. The system of US supremecy is definatly something to be adored, not that it is a good system but that everbody just goes along with it like we are simply part of a storyline just waiting to be played out.

Read "confesions of an Economic Hitman"

Really?...do you have any proof of that?...

That is not true at all, for decades people have been coming to the United States from other countries, and not because of your false claims....

Originally posted by ceci2006
Muaddib, are you saying that you really buy into that American dream? I'm sure that you are right. There are a portion of the United States population that can actually realize those dreams. However, since they have no glass ceiling to contend with and possibly they live in gated communities, are they more valuable citizens to protect from terrorists than the rest of us?

Several people included myself are living the American dream. People themselves are the ones that put barriers to achieving their dreams, noone else.

If you are going to tell me about disabled people not being able to achieve this dream, I can show you links of several people who are disabled and are living comfortably the American dream.

only those who get up and work hard achieve whatever they want, but if you want to sit down and just complain about anything and everything, you will never achieve anything at all. This is not directed at you specifically btw.

Originally posted by loam
.............
That response is so typical of the faux-patriot mentality... You didn't like the answer, so you retort with a question that demonstrates your very disdain for the very American principle of freedom of expression. You're so busy denying the possibility of our flaws, you've become incapable of recognizing ANY peril from within.

It was you who didn't like my response and presented a claim which even I question. Yes, it is more than possible that some people who leave dictatorships agree with the agendas set forth by such dictatorships, more so if they were one of the elite and priviledged people.

BTW, i never claimed the United States is without flaws, but it is a hell of a lot better than most other countries.

Originally posted by loam
The immigrants I spoke of are quite well educated and are of considerable means. Your spurious misdirection that implies they regard their former regimes as "wonderful", simply because they happen to not share your Disney Land view of our own government's behavior, is ridiculous. Moreover, it is because they have personal experience with tyranny and corruption that they so readily recognize the dangerous waters we now navigate. But of course, you will dismiss such experience....

Really?, well invite them here and ask them to talk about their stories, where they came from and what was their situation in such regimes. Bring even one of them here, and let us see who they are.

As for "those who have personal experience and can recognize what is going on", i have shown in the past excerpts from people who have lived and suffered in Communist countries, who have come to the west and have gone to colleges and Universities and they themselves also say that the same agenda and propaganda that was being indoctrinated in those Communist regimes they left, are being indoctrinated in colleges and Universities in the United States and other western countries.

That's the greatest conspiracy of them all, the slow resurgence of the agenda and propaganda which has been used in the past to bring Communism to the "workers of the world". Now the same agenda is being brought over to western societies, and it's name is "liberalism". Of course these people who brought these agendas to the west made some differences in the agenda, as to claim "it is not the same thing as Communism".

[edit on 3-6-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by tom goose

People come to the US because the US's corruption has boiled over to the point that if they want to ever make money and life for themselves and their family they have to come to North America. In other words, the US stole all their money, and now they have to come here to "play the game" in order to get it back. So Brilliant. The system of US supremecy is definatly something to be adored, not that it is a good system but that everbody just goes along with it like we are simply part of a storyline just waiting to be played out.

Read "confesions of an Economic Hitman"

Really?...do you have any proof of that?...

That is not true at all, for decades people have been coming to the United States from other countries, and not because of your false claims....

what claims are your refering too? that people come here to make money? that they cannot make the kinda money they can in North America anywhere else?

www.democracynow.org.../11/09/1526251

i watched the interview on this websites cable channel, and heard claims from someone that was involved. who are you? Show me even a CNN article that says what i have said is wrong. show me how the US helps other nations and try not to avoid all the ways that they exploit other nations.

North America does have a better life style than most nations, but i fear that it is at the expence of many nations. consider petro-dollor-recyleing and it's history. If Iraq had it's own central bank and it's own currency it would be a very strong nation. Much stronger than the US. The US (not government but key politians and oil tycoons) knew this long ago and took steps to see that the US would keep control.

www.energybulletin.net...


en.wikipedia.org...

Iran would be rich, Venusualla would be rich, and even us caunuks would be rich, not the US, they are nothing but a good hustle.

So what is the real reason for the war on terrorism?

Originally posted by Muaddib

Several people included myself are living the American dream. People themselves are the ones that put barriers to achieving their dreams, noone else.

If you are going to tell me about disabled people not being able to achieve this dream, I can show you links of several people who are disabled and are living comfortably the American dream.

only those who get up and work hard achieve whatever they want, but if you want to sit down and just complain about anything and everything, you will never achieve anything at all. This is not directed at you specifically btw.

maybe you are right, but for myself it has nothing to do with working hard, physically i work extremely hard, but that is not living the american dream is it?

to live the american dream is not to work hard, but to make large and have others work for you, therefor feeling higher than those around you and that is what makes people happy in north america, to be better than the next guy/girl.

who has the nicer house with the most expensive imported furniture, who got the cheapest gas, who's kids go to the best schools, what bay you park your yacht, who's grass is greener. trouble is is that if everybody had the oportunity to what we all want then nobody would want it.

it's called "the jones" and we are all after it, i especially love it when people that dont smoke drink or do drugs talk about being free of addictions when all along they are addicted to feeling better than everbody else. with the ecception of the extremely religious, but that is another matter, although it is the same thing.

If you are like me and have trouble looking down to people, or cant stand to play with a toy that nobody else is playing with, then you might have trouble making it in a place like this.

the CDC cut our funds as well.

www.nydailynews.com...