The British Empire

I merely pointed out they had been attacked, occupied and damaged by Italian colonialism, contrary to your claims.

Bear in mind that the two greatest colonial rivals, Britain and France fought both those wars on the same side.

- What are you on about?
Once again you have contrived to utterly miss the point and move on to something which is nothing to do with the point I have been making at all.

So are you saying that it is irrelevant ast whether colonial rivalry was or was not a causative factor of the two world wars that the two biggest colonial rivals did not go to war?

Just because it does not suit your argument does not make it irrelevant"

Please explain in what way the pre-colonial rulers of Africa, tribal chiefs who slew, tortured and enslaved their subjects at will, or the likes of Idi Amin Boukhassa, and Robert Mugabe were/are better governors than the old colonial administrations.

- Again you manage to completely miss the point.

Actually I was reiterating a point. One you have yet to rebut.

It does not matter that colonial rule was not as bloody or corrupt,

Oh!! do we have an admission here?

the point is that it was harmful to the development of those places and therefore cannot be described as 'good'.

OK a qualified admission, however you have yet to point out what lasting harm that British colonialism has caused.

That by the way does not mean providing a list of all former colonies problems and saying that "this is all nasty old GBs fault. Show me some evidence that establishes a credible causative link between colonialism, and the harm that you keep insisting is still being felt today. Something I have been calling on you to do since this thread started.

If you are so sure of your own case why do you keep avoiding this point?

In any event I don't suppose you'll understand why that doesn't strike me as something to see as too much of a 'plus' or achievement.

Well since when do lefties like you ever give great Britain any credit for her achievements.

Originally posted by Uncle Joe
Greatest contributions to the world:
Railways in India and Africa, Democratic institutions around the world from Berlin to Dehli to Cape Town. British Beef. The Sandwich.

Great Mistakes:
The USA, repeated famines in India that killied millions through sheer idiocy. Ending fifteen years to soon in Africa.

oh you have a screwed up view...first of all no one in england will eat your beef because its infected with mad cow disease.....

and the USA helped you establish those "democratic institutions in berlin" by saving your collective asses from the Nazis!!!


and you make me sick quoting jospeh stalin and praise the soviet union who killed more people than hitler, franco, mussolini COMBINED!!!!

posted by Uncle Joe

[The Empires’s] Greatest contributions to the world: Railways in India and Africa, Democratic institutions around the world from Berlin to Delhi to Cape Town. British Beef. The Sandwich. Great Mistakes: The USA; repeated famines in India [Ireland?] that killed millions through sheer idiocy. Ending fifteen years too soon in Africa. [Edited by Don W]

Not a bad list, UJ. I am uninformed why ‘British Beef’ should rank so highly. We tend to think of Chicago and Omaha as the creme de la creme of beef. You offered “the USA” as a great mistake of the British Empire. I disagree. I believe the USA is still a work in progress. After all, America’s law schools begin studies with the Magna Carta of 1215. Well, not in Louisiana. They begin with the Napoleonic code of 1811.

My point? America is a new country. England’s laws were 400 years old when the first (successful) colonist hit the ground here in 1607. Which next year makes us the same 400 years old. But England would be 800 by that count. We are now into the 4th generation of laws and systems of governance.

1) The 13 English colonies. 2) The Articles of Confederation. 3) Our 18th century Constitution. And 4) The New Deal, post industrial age which begins late and slow in America and was not in full bloom until the First World War of 1914-1918.

A strong president, as in a monarch, was tempered by fixing the term of service to 4 years. In that era when it took 8 to 10 weeks to transit the Atlantic, and nearly as long to go from Boston to Charleston by land - very dangerous by sea - 4 years did not seem like much time. After all, there was only so much harm one could do when the fastest way to travel was by horseback. And then, as now, the popular chamber of the Congress held the national purse strings. US Con. Art. I, Sec. 7, Cl. 1: “All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives . . “

I advocate a new Constitutional Convention as was held in 1787, to create a new document for the 21st century. Our 5th generation in governing experimentation. Example #2 had a unicameral legislature. It failed for 2 reasons. It had no executive and no taxing power. Example #3 was a pro slavery document, which the worst parts of were undone in 1861-1865, and the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments. And now we’re into Example #4. But it carries so much baggage it is not really working well in century 21. Fixed terms of office. Government without responsibility. Electoral college miscues. That and much more must be corrected.


[edit on 6/13/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by Vox Populi


There can be absolutely no justification for the slave trade. You were quite correct to hint that this trade had existed before Europeans arrived on the scene, and equally correct to say that nobody took it to such industrial proportions as the English.

The English were not as bad as Portugal and Spain.
You are right in pointing out that they probably did more than anyone else to abolish the trade.

[url=http://africanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa080601a.htm]Trans-Atlantic imports by region
1450-1900]

Brazil 4,000,000
Spanish Empire 2,500,000
British West Indies 2,000,000
French West Indies 1,600,00
British North America and United States 500,000
Dutch West Indies 500,000
Danish West Indies 28,000
Europe (and Islands) 200,000

[edit on 13-6-2006 by AceOfBase]

Xphiles I was being a tad sarcastic... dont get your knickers in a twist

And as for Stalin, U2U me sometime if you want a list on why he's th greatest mass mudering dictator this world has ever known and why everyone in Europe and America owes him a great deal of thanks....

The empire did great things and made terrible mistakes. Nothing is perfect, just look at the Roman empire, held up as an example to everyone of civilisation but capable of brutal slaughter.

Donwhite- British beef is up there as a personal preference, but still something to be proud of as we exported in everywhere, especially in S. America.

As for America its not so much a mistake in how its turned out, but in the fact it exists at all, i mean the most poweful nation on Earth losing to a bunch of peasants? Humiliating! Still it could always have been worse...

And i accept that America is a work in progress, but the argument could be made for all nations, some have just been around longer than others.

I'd like to include a more content impression of the British Empire...tea.

A big thankyou to our 19th century subcontinental friend, India! Where would we ever be without a beloved 2.5 kg consumption of tea each year?

We gave the world the gift of streaking

If words cannot express how you feel - then streak! preferably at a sporting event or at a church fete


good for the soul

Not in order of importance.

1. The English language.
2. DEMOCRACY (That is, there revitalisation of it).

Those are the only things from clasical Britain I can think of.

If you mean up until today;

1. The Beatles.
2. Elton John.
3. The metro system.
4. Asala (She's British, so it counts.)

[edit on 9/3/2006 by iori_komei]

Hi Vox!

like you i am a fellow northener with similar interests and a passion for classic and vintage sports cars, an A.C Cobra being my weekend tool at present.

As a keen historian living in portugal and having studied both their empire and several others i have this to add to the pot:-



THE BRITISH EMPIRE ROCKED!! EVERYONE WAS SCARED TO DEATH OF US, WE KICKED THE LIVING PANTS OUT OF ANY RABBLE WE CAME ACROSS AND DID IT WITH A CERTAIN FLARE AND STYLE UNRIVALLED TO THIS DAY!!

HUZZAH!!!
HUZZAH!!!
HUZZAH!!!

if any of you pansy foreigners fancy a good old fashioned queensbury style puch up let me know?

Vox..when youve got the required points meet me (OBE,MBE), Field Marshall U.K wizard (MBE,OBE) and Air Vice Marshall Jak's (MBE, OBE) in chat for a Pimms!

what, what old chap.

Queensferry!
My god thats only 5 minutes along the road from me!

I have to say though only WE british can do things our way: take a small illequiped, under paid, understrength and realitivly sober armed forces and still win in the end.