Loose Change TAKEN DOWN

Originally posted by AgentSmith
Still, not much different than putting all your faith into the Bush administration eh? This is where I'm glad I'm not American and I get to laugh at the antics across the water, while you drive yourselves into civil unrest and war, all for the wrong reasons.....

Or in Blair's leadership eh? Remember, your troops are getting killed in Iraq/Afg. as well, and your Gov. is just as involved in Iraq/Afg.

I suppose if you think that's funny, you can "laugh" all you want to.

You'll soon realize that it's not just an "across the water" problem. :shk:

[edit on 5/30/06 by redmage]

perhaps i havent read the thread properly but i can still access the loose change 9/11 videos here:
video.google.com...

hope its the right lot

Originally posted by AgentSmith
That's what happens when you break the law... They claim to be fighting for truth and justice, while making fame and fortune, yet break the law themselves?
How hypocritical

Luckily nothing important has been lost, anyone seeking the truth will find little in their little film...

At last someone spanked the little squirts... It's about time

I have to agree with you on the breaking the law? I mean the Naudet brothers were the ones in the middle of the action risking their lives to record the footage. They should get a percentage of whatever money anybody makes from the footage.

I heard the guys from Loose Change are preparing a theatrical release of the film; or a different film all together. That is what they said on a radio interview in WBAI in New York.

Here is were I disagree: Fame and Fortune is kind of Broad. Can anybody tell me if these three guys recently bought a house or have recieved a big check? Can anybody estimate how much money this guys are making from the screenings, websites or any other source of income due to the film? why is what they did any different than lets say Michael Moore? Besides the fact that Loose Change used somebody else's footage.

Until they come out with the theatrical release Fame and Fortune can wait a little. Anybody that knows a bit about Fame knows that one of the first steps on the Fame carpet is a visit to the dentist to get your smile fixed. I have to say these guys dont look too Faboulus.

Personally I dont hate the player I hate the game.

[edit on 30-5-2006 by LoKito]

Down-Take

Originally posted by redmage
None of this changes the fact that both the title, "Loose Change TAKEN DOWN", and the addition of the statement, "It has also been removed from Google video." are in blatant violation of the "false and misleading" clauses of the T&Cs.

"Taken Down" is a term subject to interpretation.

A lawsuit that leads them to stop selling DVDs could reasonably be interpreted that way.

As for the Google video claim, I think you've addressed that adequately. I don't see evidence that it was a knowingly false claim, and we don't delete member posts simply because they may be wrong.

Otherwise, there would be far fewer posts on ATS.

Moderation In Almost All Things

Originally posted by redmage
Nice moderation there A.S. :shk:

AgentSmith isn't a moderator for this forum, and therefore cannot edit or delete member posts. He can express his opinions, however, since all moderators are members first.

If you think moderator action is required in this thread, feel free to contact any of the forum moderators listed at the top of the page, or submit a Suggestion, and -- if warranted -- action will be taken.

I don't see a need for it, but then I'm not a moderator for this forum either.

Like many of the 9/11 trith movement type documentaries, Loose Change was and still is available all over the net and always will be.I can list several BitTorrent sites that have it ( and probably even going like mad now from this news ) as well as sites that stream.
Also, like many if not all documentaries of 9/11, most do say to 'freely' distribute the DVD any way you wish.They also tell you to copy and give away to friends and family and who ever.Sure they get a few paying customers, but with the cost of pressing a DVD, Im willing to bet they didnt even get that money back in sales so really they made...sorry, LOST MONEY!
Regardless of what you feel the film is or isnt, most of these films make $0 dollars.Money comes out of pocket to press the DVD then HOPE they get it back to at least break even.I can tell you that Dylan and Co. probably didnt even break even.
So here comes the Naudet brothers crying about copyright.Stop making money off our filming...blah blah blah.Some of you have the nerve to say Korey, Dylan, and Jason are in this to make money? They handed out DVD's at screenings.They even put on the site that they would give anyone who lost a family member of firefighter a FREE COPY.
Profits, what profits?

Im now sure everone is going to rush to the store and buy "9/11 - The Filmmakers' Commemorative Edition" ..... Commemorative Edition !!! They made you double dip a 9/11 documentary !!!
Commemorative Edition ? What is this, an SI subscription !? Do I get a free Twin Towers replica phone with this? These guys and Paramount make me sick

Originally posted by Majic
"Taken Down" is a term subject to interpretation.

Point taken, it is a phrase with enough ambiguity to leave room for various interpretations.

Originally posted by Majic
As for the Google video claim, I think you've addressed that adequately. I don't see evidence that it was a knowingly false claim, and we don't delete member posts simply because they may be wrong.

This I do take issue with though, because nowhere (in the sourced link) was it stated that it "had been removed from google video."

This strongly suggests that the statement was a complete fabrication of the O.P., especially since it was so easily verified as false (it took less than 30 seconds to find).

Personally, I don't agree with deleting any post unless it's constructed of nothing more than a rubbish bin of obscenities. Likewise, I never have, nor will, take advantage of the "ignore feature". Is the post "warn worthy"? Sure. Worthy of deletion? Not in my opinion.

Originally posted by Majic

AgentSmith isn't a moderator for this forum, and therefore cannot edit or delete member posts. He can express his opinions, however, since all moderators are members first.

Yes, mods are people with opinions too. However, it would seem to me that with being a moderator, if you see something which has been pointed out to be "in violation" of the T&Cs, one would contact the proper mod/s regardless of it being in your area of the forums or not. Is there no teamwork and helping out the others with a "heads up" now and then, or is it a "not my forum = not my problem" type of situation?

I guess I just don't see a two line post, where 1/2 is a complete fabrication, as ATS material/worthy.

[edit on 5/31/06 by redmage]

The loose change video got me interested in this all that time ago and although it has quite a few glaring inacuracies it's a usefull tool to get people questioning the official version of events. The footage of the planes hitting the towers should be public domain as it's in the public interest for it to be.

The Line Of Duty

Originally posted by redmage
Yes, mods are people with opinions too. However, it would seem to me that with being a moderator, if you see something which has been pointed out to be "in violation" of the T&Cs, one would contact the proper mod/s regardless of it being in your area of the forums or not.

Yes. Absolutely. I do it all the time. I consider it my duty as a moderator to do so.

However, as I pointed out, I don't see a need for it in this case, so I don't see this as an occasion where it would be appropriate to alert other moderators (we have a button for that, by the way).

You may want to review my last post, where my opinions and your options as a member are stated as clearly as I can can state them.

For The Team

Originally posted by redmage
Is there no teamwork and helping out the others with a "heads up" now and then, or is it a "not my forum = not my problem" type of situation?

I think most members would be positively amazed at how closely all members of the staff work together. We notify and consult each other constantly on pretty much everything.

When moderator action is required, multiple members of the staff are typically made aware of it almost immediately, and it is routine for discussion to take place before action is taken.

We don't discuss what goes on in Cosmic, but if you were to speculate that we talk a lot about what's going on in the forums, I can't say you'd be wrong.

"I'm Not Worthy!"

Originally posted by redmage
I guess I just don't see a two line post, where 1/2 is a complete fabrication, as ATS material/worthy.

Personally, I prefer to see more commentary from members, but given the choice between members passing along information tersely or never hearing of it at all, I'll go for terse.

As for the worthiness of material, it takes all kinds, and material consistent with the T&C is fair game. I don't see a problem with the topic or its discussion, and as for factual discrepancies, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

I don't see evidence of deliberate deception in this case, just human fallibility, which is legal on ATS, lest we all be forced to find a new home.

Topical Suggestions

Of course there is a topic for this thread, and I think we're both running somewhat afield of it, so with apologies to aelphaeis_mangarae for my digression, I'll leave my commentary on the moderation of this thread where it stands.

If you think I'm wrong or out of line or whatever, please don't be shy about punching the Suggestions button, pasting in a link to this thread and airing your grievances.

I wouldn't be offended at all, and it will call attention to and trigger a staff review of any problems you think may be getting overlooked here.

We do try to be fair about all this.

Honest.




Topic: Loose Change TAKEN DOWN

Originally posted by Majic
I don't see this as an occasion where it would be appropriate to alert other moderators (we have a button for that, by the way).

Yes, I know there's a button. It just seemed a bit redundant when there's already two mods directly involved in the thread.

Originally posted by Majic
as for factual discrepancies, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

If you're referring to A.S.'s comments on "Get with the program dude, there are three key people involved in the 'Loose Change'...."

The complaint issued was not addressed to Louder Than Words (which would include Korey Rowe and Jason Bermas). It was solely addressed to Avery himself so I stand by my origional statements.

If that's not what you're referring to, I promise not to complain for any warning I may recieve if I ever start a thread with only two lines (one of which being completely fabricated and unsubstantiated).

Originally posted by Majic
I don't see evidence of deliberate deception in this case, just human fallibility, which is legal on ATS.

So be it.

Originally posted by Majic

Of course there is a topic for this thread, and I think we're both running somewhat afield of it

Agreed

Topic: Loose Change TAKEN DOWN

A complaint has been made but it's still up for all to see: video.google.com...

[edit on 5/31/06 by redmage]

Dylan Avery. . .

Meet CAPTAIN COPYRIGHT!!!

That'll teach you!!!

Well, It looks like they were able to keep the Naudet footage in after all.

They have added credit and a disclaimer to the begining of the film and they are back at it.

Google

It would seem that "CAPTAIN COPYRIGHT!!!" has been defeated by Comander Cite Source and his sidekick Disclaimer Boy.

[edit on 8/21/06 by redmage]

Originally posted by redmage
Well, It looks like they were able to keep the Naudet footage in after all.

They have added credit and a disclaimer to the begining of the film and they are back at it.

Google

It would seem that "CAPTAIN COPYRIGHT!!!" has been defeated by Comander Cite Source and his sidekick Disclaimer Boy.

[edit on 8/21/06 by redmage]

err that is NOT how copyright works -- a " credit and disclaimer " are worthless - if the copyright holder objects to the use of their IP [ intelectual property ]

you require EXPRESS PERMISSION to use copyright material - its very simple

claiming " you let others use it for free " or " its been shown 1000 times " cuts no mustard

you need the EXPRESS authority of the copyright holder - PERIOD

the copyright holder can capriciously decide who can use thier maretial , in what context , and how much they should be paid for the usage

as copy right holder - you can say to person "A" - yup you can use it in anyway you want , free of charge -- the turn to person "B" and demand $1 trilion licencing fee -- and there is no redress

i wil admit i have no idea of the technicalities of " fair use " loop holes for review / rebuttal purpises etc -- but thats an entire seperate issue

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
i wil admit i have no idea of the technicalities of " fair use " loop holes for review / rebuttal purpises etc

Then why comment and revive the thread 10 days later?

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
-- but thats an entire seperate issue

Apparently that IS the issue here since they now have the film re-released (with the minor addition of the disclaimer) and the "disputed footage" is still included.

[edit on 9/2/06 by redmage]

Originally posted by AgentSmith
That's what happens when you break the law... They claim to be fighting for truth and justice, while making fame and fortune, yet break the law themselves?
How hypocritical

truth and justice are not synonymous with 'law'.

example: you invite someone over to your house for dinner(surf and turf with edelwiess salad). it's january, and there is freezing rain when he arrives. he slips and falls on your stairs, breaking his leg.
he sues you for the injuries and employment loss 'you caused' him.
you lose your house due to the extreme cost of anything 'legal'.

another, you say?

example 2: you find a devious evil policeman and his supreme court judge buddy have been blackmailing/raping your 5 yr/ old daughter and your wife(who is in a wheelchair due to a car accident).
you shoot them dead in the act.

where's your 'truth' and 'justice', now?

Originally posted by aelphaeis_mangarae
loosechange911.com...

Good Bye Loose Change.

It has also been removed from Google video.

[edit on 28-5-2006 by aelphaeis_mangarae]

sorry if someone posted this, but loose change has not been taken down, here it is video.google.co.uk...

Originally posted by AgentSmith
Still, not much different than putting all your faith into the Bush administration eh? This is where I'm glad I'm not American and I get to laugh at the antics across the water, while you drive yourselves into civil unrest and war, all for the wrong reasons.....

I'm a new guy here, and I respect the fact that you're staff, but I'm not afraid to call you on that BS, Smith (or bollocks, if you prefer). I'm here because I'm tired of listening to the official story, and because I don't put all my faith in any administration, Bush's included. I'd imagine that most of us are here for the same reason. So while you're laughing at our dead civilians, tell me how much you laughed at the London Transit incident. Because I don't think dead civilians in any place, or the circumstances that made them dead, are funny at all.

Anyway, on topic, Loose Change is crap, and I'm sorry it's still available. The few valid questions addressed in that documentary are overwhelmed by the other twelve pounds of crap in that two-pound bag.

Originally posted by ANOK
Yeah, why are they worried about copyright infringment?

I thought this was about getting the truth out, not making money

All THEY care about is making money.

Even if they have to kill a few people to maintain thier power.

Originally posted by In nothing we trust
All THEY care about is making money.

Riiiight, that's why they've made the video available to view for free on google video.

Originally posted by In nothing we trust
Even if they have to kill a few people to maintain thier power.

Could you cite a source that says the makers of the film have killed someone, anyone (let alone "a few"), to maintain this "power" that you speak of? :shk: