Bayer (Phamaceutical Company) Laces Drugs With HIV - Gets Caught

Good morning everyone. I have to admit I'm suprised we're still discussing this but, oh well, here we go again...

Ok doctor, I'll try to answer your questions again. By the way, I don't think you're reading the links we're providing as evidence. Please at least read the NY Times article where this all started (if you don't have time skip to the last page where they give a timeline of events according to the internal documents they recovered):

query.nytimes.com...

Here's my answers to your questions:

So, remind me again how Bayer could have known that there was HIV in the medication from 1978 - 1985 as the video suggests?

IMO this is where you are missing the whole point. You're absolutely correct. They didn't know. And nobody is (except maybe the title of the thread) is blaming them for what happened before 1985. The problem is in what happened after they knew (please see timeline mentioned above). They were told to stop selling in the US but continued selling in Asia knowing Factor VIII was tainted with HIV.

How could anyone taking the Factor VII or other drug pinpoint their infection to that drug specifically?
HIV can be sexually transmitted. Did they have any unprotected sex?
HIV can be spread through contact with several contaminated fluids. Did they have contact with someone who was later found to be HIV+ in the hospital or otherwise?

Again, you're right. But you can't simply dismiss all their claims either. In addition it can't be simply coincidence that Bayer was selling Factor VIII tainted with HIV to asian markets and suddenly hundreds or thousands of asian hemophiliacs develop AIDS.

I guess it's a matter of perspective. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you feel the overall benefits of Factor VIII outweigh the fact that a few thousand people paid for it with their lives.

I also understand your belief in the scientific method... using statistics to justify decisions. It's like when automakers want to cut costs by using cheaper materials for their seat belts. They use statistics to determine how many people will die from this decision and then determine that it will cost less to pay court costs than to use the more expensive materials in their seat belts.

I have a science and math background as well. So these ideas aren't lost with me. However you have two sides to this arguement. The sides being corporate profits vs. morality.

I'll chose morality.

Hey Doc, You're not gonna win this one. Nobody here agrees with you and your view. I'm certainly glad YOU'RE not in charge of anything that effects the population. We would ALL be &^%#!!

Originally posted by MrChipps
Hey Doc, You're not gonna win this one. Nobody here agrees with you and your view. I'm certainly glad YOU'RE not in charge of anything that effects the population. We would ALL be &^%#!!

So, because three people two people, one of whom doesn't grasp the relationship between HIV and AIDS, disagree with me, the debate is somehow moot? And what have you contributed to this thread again?

Also, Dae, I've read all your links. No where in there does it provide any evidence that Bayer KNEW there was an AIDS-Blood link. They knew that the groups they took plasma from were at RISK for AIDS, but they had no idea what was causing it. THAT IS MY POINT.

Reread that. THAT IS MY POINT.

The people suing Bayer are suing for transmission of HIV. It seems those suing have not developed full-blown AIDS yet, thanks to modern medicine (ironic, I know). Bayer had no knowledge of HIV, and you can't transmist AIDS, AIDS is a syndrome. You can only spread AIDS by spreading the human immunodeficiency virus, HIV. That is the ONLY way to develop AIDS, acquired immunodeficiency syndrome. So, in short, yes, Bayer was wrong. Did they take enough blood from prisoners to supply an entire world's worth of factor viii? No, there's no way they did unless they took blood several times from every prisoner in the nation and possibly in Canada. That's perhaps why few people compared to the number of drug recipients developed any condition, a small percentage of the products were tainted compared to the total amount exported.

Again, you guys seem to think I'm cheerleading for Bayer, I'm not. I'm simply saying let's take a reasoned, scientific look at this and not just scream "WITCH" while foaming at the mouth, like some on this board tend to do. Can we find any direct link between the blood products and the cases? I haven't seen anyone, Dae or mecheng, present any evidence yet. Dae, all you do is post frivolous links to things I've already read about "internal documents" that no one has seen. I don't often trsut third part sources that force me to believe they "know someone" who has seen the document. Sorry, call it a character flaw.

MFP

[edit on 5/27/2006 by bsl4doc]

I'm afraid I have to agree with Mr. Chipps (in a small way). The medical student does not want to admit that this is not about the companies involved being unable to test for HIV at the time of distribution but rather IF they knowingly distributed tainted and potentially harmful product abroad to avoid profit losses at the expense of the end-user. Given his stance, I wouldn't allow him to care for a pet let alone a human being with his party line rhetoric. And your "no test for HIV at the time" logic is simply obfuscation. Indeed, it is time to move along.

[edit on 27-5-2006 by antipigopolist]

I'm afraid I have to agree with the above poster. The medical student does not want to admit that this is not about the companies involved being unable to test for HIV at the time of distribution but rather IF they knowingly distributed tainted and potentially harmful product abroad to avoid profit losses at the expense of the end-user.

I'm sorry, have you not read any of my posts? I have readil admitted that it is very likely Bayer sold tainted products. However, please review the title of the thread, it refers SPECIFICALLY TO HIV. For this reason, I have been discussing the likelihood that there was an intentional HIV contamination, or even an accidental one. Way to read the whole thread/posts, though. Congrats. Oh, and it's DOCTOR now, not medical student. Graduated earlier this month =). Round start in another month.

Given his stance, I wouldn't allow him to care for a pet let alone a human being with his party line rhetoric. And your "no test for HIV at the time" logic is simply obfuscation. Indeed, it is time to move along.

Well, first of, SHE, secondly, just because I disagree with you based on a lack of evidence, I'm somehow less medically apt? Wow, I'm afraid if you used that line of reasoning, there would be few if any doctors you would be willing to go to. Most of us tend to like hacing evidence before we make assumptions.

MFP

Apologies for my error in gender recognition. And indeed, congrats on making Doctor. I posted my previous post before reading your latest reply. And yes, I have read your replies but I was getting exhausted by your inability to understand certain poster's reasoning, however clouded were they by outrage. And yes, the title is misleading and just plain wrong BUT....yes there is a but...this thread opened for discussion the possibility that a major crime has not been investigated properly by the authorities and now documentation may have sufaced that implicates certain pharmas. It just appeared you were not seeing that line of reason. If a large part of the problem with this thread for you simply lies in the title, I would call for a revision by the admins (not a bad idea really, as at the moment it is heresay). Don't get me wrong though...as I stated earlier...innocence until guilt is proven.

OK...now...back to moving on...

Enjoy your weekend.

You have voted antipigopolist for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

I applaud you for staying to rational and calm in this heated thread. Have a great weekend =).

MFP

Originally posted by mecheng
bsl4doc:

I have to honestly say that you're missing the point here. Are you a Bayer Rep by any chance?

No he's just usually wrong about the facts that he thinks he knows but he doesn't have a grasp of at all. He says some number of posts up "I'm just not going to respond to this thread", and then returns a number of times. A man of his word for sure, a man with self control indeed. A person of such character is not worth any thinking persons time.

I'm just glad he won't be practicing medicine in my country, we have more than enough doctors who just toe the corporate line and support corporations blindly the way he does.

Bayer trademarked Heroin and from 1898 to 1910 marketed it as a cure for morphine addiction and as cough syrup for children. IG Farben Bayer was also a key Nazi supporting corporation, go look up their rather demonic history and then look at the people they killed with HIV, seems to me it goes along nicely with original SS agenda. Oh they are also the maker of the abortion pill, I'm not against the abortion pill but it sure seems Bayer is historically all about killing, addicting, and poisoning people. For instance find out how many people die from aspirin a year. Then look for the label on the bottle that says "use of this product as directed my cause death", its not there.

Originally posted by Legalizer

Originally posted by mecheng
bsl4doc:

I have to honestly say that you're missing the point here. Are you a Bayer Rep by any chance?

No he's just usually wrong about the facts that he thinks he knows but he doesn't have a grasp of at all. He says some number of posts up "I'm just not going to respond to this thread", and then returns a number of times. A man of his word for sure, a man with self control indeed. A person of such character is not worth any thinking persons time.

I'm just glad he won't be practicing medicine in my country, we have more than enough doctors who just toe the corporate line and support corporations blindly the way he does.

Bayer trademarked Heroin and from 1898 to 1910 marketed it as a cure for morphine addiction and as cough syrup for children. IG Farben Bayer was also a key Nazi supporting corporation, go look up their rather demonic history and then look at the people they killed with HIV, seems to me it goes along nicely with original SS agenda. Oh they are also the maker of the abortion pill, I'm not against the abortion pill but it sure seems Bayer is historically all about killing, addicting, and poisoning people. For instance find out how many people die from aspirin a year. Then look for the label on the bottle that says "use of this product as directed my cause death", its not there.

Remind me where the topic became "Harass someone you don't know based on their opinions that differ from yours"??

As for the Bayer info, I don't see why their support of the Nazi government has any bearing on their stance on anything now? BMW, Volkswagon, Degussa, the German branch of Ford Motor Co., as well as many modern telecommunications companies all worked with the Nazi government. You know why? Because they controlled a large part of Europe for several years. My greatgrandfather was in the military during Musolini's reign. Should he be held responsible for every opposing soldier that may have died due to his actions? He regrets supporting Benito NOW, because hindsight is 20/20, is it not? How could these corporations possibly have knowledge of everything going on when they engaged in business talks?

I still don't see where you people got the idea that ethics was EVER a part of business...

[edit on 5/27/2006 by bsl4doc]

Originally posted by bsl4doc
As for the Bayer info, I don't see why their support of the Nazi government has any bearing on their stance on anything now?

Because Nazis are still alive and well today and working within all branches of drug and government institutions.


If you don't believe they're out there, you've got another thing coming.

I still don't see where you people got the idea that ethics was EVER a part of business...

So quit working for the Medical/Drug Industries and become a real doctor, learn that nature has provided us with everything to heal the body and mind. Become a herbalist and you'll have my respect.

I am a "real doctor". I work in public health, and most of the treatments I work with do involve vitamins, minerals, etc. rather than costly antibiotics. However, you cannot deny the abilities of modern medicine. It would be a little daft to slight the progress science has made in promoting health.

My wife would whole heartedly agree with you here eudaimonia

original quote by:eudaimonia
So quit working for the Medical/Drug Industries and become a real doctor, learn that nature has provided us with everything to heal the body and mind. Become a herbalist and you'll have my respect.

Thats a big problem with todays doctors.. they all think that only medical science can heal..or should I say treat.. since they dont cure much of anything anymore. I guess theres not much profit in a cure only treatment.

Alittle off topic but, I used to get headaches everyday of my life from when I was 10 till about three weeks ago when me and my wife finally deduced what the cause was. I have been to countless doctors and all they did was test this and test that and they kept saying nothing wrong, nothing wrong, its all in your head and so on. You know what the problem was...too much caffine. I trust doctors as far as I can throw them. Most get incentives from Big Pharma so Alot of doctors will agree with whatever lab tests come from these Vampiric institutions

But I cannot agree more that nature provides all that we need. The problem there is supply. there isnt enough for everyone.. and thats why we need to merge medical science with natural medicine and use the strengths of the two together.IMHO.

Originally posted by bsl4doc
I am a "real doctor". I work in public health, and most of the treatments I work with do involve vitamins, minerals, etc. rather than costly antibiotics. However, you cannot deny the abilities of modern medicine. It would be a little daft to slight the progress science has made in promoting health.

There's more progress to be made and advances in human health 100x over in alternative medicine than any type of modern treatments used today.

Why it hasn't become an integral part of all hospitals and medical schools is mind boggling.

Big Pharma so Alot of doctors will agree with whatever lab tests come from these Vampiric institutions

Big Pharma doesn't run our tests. Most hospitals perform their own tests in their own labs, and many clinics run their own labs, as well. I don't see how big pharma can change the results of a whole blood count, blood ox test, serum platelet count, bacterial culture, etc.

Originally posted by TONE23
Thats a big problem with todays doctors.. they all think that only medical science can heal..or should I say treat.. since they dont cure much of anything anymore. I guess theres not much profit in a cure only treatment.

Exactly.

And too many doctors today do not seem to be qualified. I look at a doctor now and all I see is a performance. An act. It's all theater to give the impression that they are in control, that they know better, so trust us! When in fact they don't.

That's why I've decided to become my own doctor. Listen to your body. Your body is the best communicator when it comes to diagnosis and treatment. Recognize your habits and become aware what works and what doesn't.

All you gotta do is take some time to research online and outside (library) the many wonderful herbs/vitamins/plants/foods that heal. Look into Homeopathy and Aromatherapy too.

But I cannot agree more that nature provides all that we need. The problem there is supply. there isnt enough for everyone.. and thats why we need to merge medical science with natural medicine and use the strengths of the two together. IMHO.

That merge will never happen. lol

It's time to take matters into your own hands. Corruption is so deep I don't think Jesus himself can perform a miracle.

I don't know about limited supply, the internet is a wonderful thing I'm sure if someone really wants something they'll get it. One way or another.



[edit on 27-5-2006 by eudaimonia]

That's why I've decided to become my own doctor. Listen to your body. Your body is the best communicator when it comes to diagnosis and treatment. Recognize your habits and become aware what works and what doesn't.

All you gotta do is take some time to research online and outside (library) the many wonderful herbs/vitamins/plants/foods that heal. Look into Homeopathy and Aromatherapy too.

Sounds like a plan. When you develop meningitis, encephalitis, or any other fatal infection, please post on this forum about what you did that worked better than antibiotics or antivirals. That's assuming you don't die from the infection trying to find an herb that works as well as medicine.

MFP

There's more progress to be made and advances in human health 100x over in alternative medicine than any type of modern treatments used today.

Why it hasn't become an integral part of all hospitals and medical schools is mind boggling.

hmmm yeah right thats why before modern medicines herbal medicines was performing heart, lung, liver and kisney transplants. just what is the herbal alternative to renal dialysis please tell me then.

To deny that modern medicine has contributed nothing to prolonging our lives and allowing us to live healthier is just stupid. I feel that alternative medcines can be useful for certain conditions but they in no way can replace real medicine.

before antiboitics and modern drugs infections were often fatal, the flu kills millions of people who if they had lived today would survive. childrenhood illnesses such as measles killed millions oif children and herbal medicine could do nothing to prevent it

Without modern medicine I would be dead now and that is a FACT

To deny that modern medicine has contributed nothing to prolonging our lives and allowing us to live healthier is just stupid. I feel that alternative medcines can be useful for certain conditions but they in no way can replace real medicine.

before antiboitics and modern drugs infections were often fatal, the flu kills millions of people who if they had lived today would survive. childrenhood illnesses such as measles killed millions oif children and herbal medicine could do nothing to prevent it

Without modern medicine I would be dead now and that is a FACT

BINGO. When I was a toddler, I contracted scarlet fever due to an untreated strep infection. I say untreated because my aunt felt that herbal tea and rest was the best treatment, and it just worsened my condition. Scarlet fever is VERY fatal, and without modern medicine, I would have died. I don't recall seeing any herbal alternatives to treating scarlet fever...

You have voted arnold_vosloo for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Well doc its nice to see out of everything I said you only pick up on the one line of Big pharma doing the testing. Of course your right that there are alot of independent testing groups and hospitals and such...but dont even try to tell me that companies like Glaxo-Kline Smith, Merc and many others dont do their own testing..thats just absurd.. And as soon as I find the story on how the big Pharm companies used New York Orphans as guini pigs, Ill post it.

These companies care about one thing and one thing only...profit...

Anyway we are detracting from the main focus here. So i will withdraw on the side events for now.

I understand that there was no testing available actually I even posted them from the FDA website to back YOU up DOC...lol. here it is again for you:FDA AIDS HISTORY PAGE

And I agree how could the company test for something that didnt have a test yet?
But, I also read the NYTIMES and they definately screwed up big time. And even though they couldnt test for AIDS. Could they have tested it for HEP C? When did HEP tests first become available?

Sorry if I pissed you off doc but you must understand that, due to the experiences that I have personally had with many doctors, has ALWAYS been a very negative experience. And almost everyone of them that I have been to has shot down natural medicine like it was Dick Cheneys hunting friend.

[edit on 27-5-2006 by TONE23]

Sorry if I pissed you off doc but you must understand that, due to the experiences that I have personally had with many doctors, has ALWAYS been a very negative experience. And almost everyone of them that I have been to has shot down natural medicine like it was Dick Cheneys hunting friend.

[edit on 27-5-2006 by TONE23]

There's a good reason for that behaviour in doctors. You know how you have bad experiences with doctors? Well, many of us doctors have had bad experiences with "patients" of these alternative medicine quacks and people who looked up "alternative" treatments on the internet. In just the two years I have been doing clinical rotations first as a student and then doctor, I have seen several patients who had an adverse effect from herbs, have overdosed on an alternative treatment, or have had an infection or conditions WORSEN due to lack of modern medical treatment. Granted, there truly are some alternative treatments that work very well. I am a BIG proponent of taking zinc and vitamin C supplements for colds and minor infections, and it usually works. However, when confronted with a serious or fatal infection/condition, alternative medicine does not compare to modern medical science. I have yet to see a peer reviewed article proving the efficacy of herbal remedies for HIV, Hepatitis, rheumatoid arthritis, tuberculosis, etc, all of which are at least controlled and lessened by modern medicine through antivirals, steroids, etc.

Oh, and the first test for Hepatitis C, the only Hep viral strain referred to in the NY Times article I believe, wasn't designed until 1986, outside of the 1978-1984 range discussed in the lawsuit.

MFP