The USA is dying

Ok, now that I have your attention, I have a legitimate question.
Is the USA dying?
Can she be killed with one swift blow?
I certainly am not a financial expert, but would love to hear from those here that might be.
With the "Oil Bourse", the potential Russian Oil trade for Rubles, and who knows what with Venezuela - could this truly be a death blow, or is it nothing more than a speed bump in the road?
With China holding so much in the way of Dollars, therefore controlling a major amount of the American debt, could they pull the trigger and defeat the USA without firing one single shot?
Truly, is there any way that the USA could go down? Is there any way that she could continue to be the country that she has been? Is it too late, or is it paranoia?

Originally posted by lombozo
Ok, now that I have your attention, I have a legitimate question.

From what follows in your post, you don't. You have a feeble attempt at provocation, and intellectually uninteresting at that.

Is the USA dying?

No.

Can she be killed with one swift blow?

No.

With the "Oil Bourse", the potential Russian Oil trade for Rubles, and who knows what with Venezuela - could this truly be a death blow, or is it nothing more than a speed bump in the road?

It's a pebble under a 18-wheeler.

With China holding so much in the way of Dollars, therefore controlling a major amount of the American debt, could they pull the trigger and defeat the USA without firing one single shot?

They can't do it without going down themselves. Consider -- if all your reserves are worthless overnight, you are in the cr@pper for real.

Truly, is there any way that the USA could go down?

No, there is not.

Now, there are grave dangers posed to the country by the current Administration and whoever is next in the line of succession, but there is in fact plenty of resilience we haven't even tapped into.

I think the SUV's should go, we should drill Alaska and stop buying oil from Venezuela and/or Russia. Invest in alternative energy source (corn alcohol, solar, wind). We can, provided we vote for the right person.

Aelita. What you said.

The US is too firmly ingrained, or maybe intrenched would be the better word, in the world economy for something like Russia trading with the "oilruble" to have more than a minor affect.

I hear a lot of talk about the oil bourse, but not a lot of proof it is going to have anything but a minor effect.

Deny Ignorance.......... Right.

The U.S. is in trouble, look at the deficit. There are tell tale signs that once the Oil markets are no longer dominated by the Dollar, a financial disaster of biblical proportions will hit the U.S.

Why is the deficit mainly offshore these days?

What will those Chinese investors you´ve mentioned holding those Dollars and bearer bonds in Dollars do once the Dollar starts showing signs of weakness?

You´ve guessed it: dump the Dollar.

And if it were ´just´ the Chinese this would be just a pebble under a truck, but what about the Saudi´s? Asian Banks?

Read the E/2020 June 2006 update for details

Wake up please....

[edit on 23-5-2006 by HardToGet]

Originally posted by Aelita


With China holding so much in the way of Dollars, therefore controlling a major amount of the American debt, could they pull the trigger and defeat the USA without firing one single shot?

They can't do it without going down themselves. Consider -- if all your reserves are worthless overnight, you are in the cr@pper for real.

You kind of make the point for me. If other nations begin to move away from the dollar - those reserves are worthless, so they need to get rid of the reserves - domino effect.

Is it going to happen overnight? In a week? No- thats silly. Is it going to happen because Iran or Russian turn to a euro\rouble bourse? No- thats silly too.

COULD it happen IF multiple trade markets, Asian banks, Middle Eastern banks, Russia and China and others begin to diversify and liquidate their dollar reserve holdings because our government has printed too much money and continues to make huge financial and political blunders on the worlds stage? No- thats sill......

wait...

thats not silly at all. Thats not even close to funny.

The US has been 'dying' for a while. China and the East are getting richer and richer and richer. Apparently in the next few Years China will be the richest country in the world. The tides are turning in favour of the East now ... and with Money comes Power.

[edit on 23/5/06 by Liamoville]

Here's what I'm saying, apart from what I wrote above.

The American economy can be self sufficient. If need be, we will drill our own oil and produce our own steel (creating tons of jobs in the process). Yes, some of it will be unpleasant, but the bottomline that we can emerge from the dollar devaluation (which in part has already happened) rejuvenated and in a better shape. A weak dollar will mean more exports for anything American. Like I said, we'll have to ditch the SUVs. Big deal. I don't have one anyway.

may i ask.....Who will buy thier crap when america is gone ?

Originally posted by Liamoville
The US has been 'dying' for a while. China and the East are getting richer and richer and richer. Apparently in the next few Years China will be the richest country in the world. The tides are turning in favour of the East now ... and with Money comes Power.

I recommend reading more about the huge disparity between the quazi-middle class urban populaton in China and ultra-poor peasants who often see the modest plots of land they have confiscated by the govt, about the police shooting at the farmers etc.

I do not dispute the huge potential of China etc, but the "riches" have been greatly exaggerated.

I have to agree, the country is dying.

The US is an empire. Empires fall. Babylon, Rome, Persia, USSR, Germany, Japan, etc. They don't last because they are not sustainable. This is a political, economic, anthropologic, and historical reality. It may take time, but it will happen. Especially considering after the fall of the USSR, we are the primary empire on the planet, this may be a hard fall (the bigger they are....).

See Jared Diamond's Collapse, also Crossing the Rubicon, and Chomsky's new one to see more....

Originally posted by lombozo
Is the USA dying?
Can she be killed with one swift blow?

The USA is doing just fine, thank you.
As for it being killed with one blow, I think you're confusing the USA with a kingdom or military dictatorship like Cuba, where if the head guy goes down, the whole place falls apart. We have a little thing here called decentralized representative government. The entire city of Washington DC could be wiped off the earth, and we'd be back in business in a couple of weeks.

Originally posted by Enkidu
The USA is doing just fine, thank you.
As for it being killed with one blow, I think you're confusing the USA with a kingdom or military dictatorship like Cuba, where if the head guy goes down, the whole place falls apart. We have a little thing here called decentralized representative government. The entire city of Washington DC could be wiped off the earth, and we'd be back in business in a couple of weeks.

We would probably be alot more efficient too. Washington DC is probably the safest place on the planet right now. Why would an enemy take a chance on injuring the only thing that can help them win? The US Government.

Imbalanced makes a valid point. If the poop did hit the ventilator on multiple fronts and the country went into an economic implosion we would suffer without a doubt. There would be hyper0inflation and amssive unemployemnt. Quality of life here would drop catastrophically. However, it wouldn't stop here. The domino effect would spread far and wide. The USA is the world's largest consumer. We buy tons of stuff from juist about every country out there. In addition, we provide billions in foreign aid

2005 Foreign Aid

When our consumerism stops and aid dries up the international impact will be massive and far reaching.

Originally posted by imbalanced
may i ask.....Who will buy thier crap when america is gone ?

You are retarded if you think that America is the only trade partner with China.

How about the rest of the world?

Over hundred billion USD recorded for Chinese textile trade in 2004

China's Top Ten Trade Partners
Following are latest figures about China's trade with its top ten partners from January to June, 2001, provided by the General Administration of Customs:

-- Japan: total, 42.422 billion U.S. dollars, up 11.8 percent year-on-year; Exports to Japan, 21.401 billion U.S. dollars, up 13. 7 percent; Imports, 21.022 billion U.S. dollars, up 10.1 percent.

-- The United States: total, 37.539 billion U.S. dollars, up 9. 7 percent; Exports, 25.027 billion U.S. dollars, up 6.0 percent; Imports, 12.513 billion U.S. dollars, up 17.9 percent.

-- The European Union: total, 36.886 billion U.S dollars, up 15. 0 percent; Exports, 19.801 billion U.S. dollars, up 9.4 percent; Imports, 17.085 billion U.S. dollars, up 22.3 percent.

-- Hong Kong Special Administrative Region: total, 25.903 billion U.S. dollars, up 4.0 percent; Exports, 21.415 billion U.S. dollars, up 3.6 percent; Imports, 4.488 billion U.S. dollars, up 6. 0 percent.

-- ASEAN countries: total, 19.940 billion U.S. dollars, up 12.3 percent; Exports, 8.601 billion U.S. dollars, up 7.8 percent; Imports, 11.339 billion U.S. dollars, up 16.1 percent. -- The Republic of Korea: total, 17.300 billion U.S. dollars, up 7.7 percent; Exports, 5.796 billion U.S. dollars, up 9.4 percent; Imports, 11.504 billion U.S. dollars, up 6.8 percent.

-- Taiwan Province: total, 14.991 billion U.S. dollars, up 6.8 percent; Exports, 2.362 billion U.S. dollars, down 2.1 percent; Imports, 12.629 billion U.S. dollars, up 8.7 percent.

-- Russia: total, 4.593 billion U.S. dollars, up 28.8 percent; exports, 1.037 billion U.S. dollars, up 17.2 percent; imports, 3. 556 billion U.S. dollars, up 32.6 percent.

-- Australia: total, 4.009 billion U.S. dollars, down 0.4 percent; Exports, 1.584 billion U.S. dollars, up 2.3 percent; Imports, 2.425 billion U.S. dollars, down 2.0 percent.

-- Canada: total, 3.546 billion U.S. dollars, up 4.1 percent; Exports, 1.609 billion U.S. dollars, up 7.6 percent; Imports, 1. 938 billion U.S. dollars, up 1.5 percent.

Hey, if you can find current dates and trade information - please show me the light. You're completely out of touch with reality if you think that the U.S. is the only economy that is helping to build China.


It is ridiculous to believe that the U.S. will be dropped in one fell swoop, or that our culture and nation will be brought to complete ruin by trade imbalance - but it is stupid and irresponsible to believe that we are invincible and that the world could never turn away from us just because there are so many brain-washed zombies chanting "consume consume consume" forever.

The world is very interconnected, and there is a lot more to the global economy than JUST the U.S. Personally, I think an economic severe depression and cultural collapse will be the beginning of the end of the current power structure- but NEVER the end of the United States. It will hurt, and things will be reshuffled - but there will also be an amazing opportunity to rebuild and learn from the lessons that it will teach us as a nation.

The American people are too strong when the chips are down to be destroyed, the United States of America will NOT die. We may be set back decades, and have a violent civil war taking our super-power status away - but we will never die.

[edit on 23-5-2006 by Violent]

Every time I see an announcement about a new limited edition Ford GT production run, or a few Veyron vehicles imported into the US at the tune of 2 million a piece, or how another rap star iced out his/her front teeths, or any such crap, I just feel there is enough pork to be cut without us dying out. Somebody will have to do less golfing with Greg Norman. I'll still be happy eating my pasta.

Originally posted by Aelita
Every time I see an announcement about a new limited edition Ford GT production run, or a few Veyron vehicles imported into the US at the tune of 2 million a piece, or how another rap star iced out his/her front teeths, or any such crap, I just feel there is enough pork to be cut without us dying out. Somebody will have to do less golfing with Greg Norman. I'll still be happy eating my pasta.

What makes you think that depression and economic realities are going to impact the grossly overrich the same as the average working man? Why would you think they have ANYTHING to do with each other????

During the great depression in the 1930's, do you think it was the millionaires that did without - or the common man?

I guess we do consume alot from them.....nice post violent.

I ask the question again....

Who will buy their crap when we are gone ???

I didnt say we are the only ones that buy, but we are a large part.
Dont ya think violent ?

Is the USA dying?

The United States has been dying since JFK was shot.

Do we need a troll alert?

I am not some Go-China! fanboi, I am not trying to paint a picture of a doomed United States. I am not trying to argue either way that about the future of America - unless having a position urging education and caution is arguing a point.

www.businessweek.com...
JANUARY 19, 2006
Viewpoint
By Oded Shenkar

Learning from China's Export Boom
China has replaced the U.S. as the world's top tech exporter. While no cause for panic, it's a wake-up call for the complacent

www.intracen.org...
International Trade Statistics
Exports 2000-2004
Reporter: CHINA

www.emergingtextiles.com...
A basic overview of how manipulation of current trade quotas is helping increase the pricing paid for Chinese manufactured textiles- by not selling as many units as allowed under trade agreements, they are raising the prices paid for those units. (in other words, they are shortening trade, and it is still helping China)

NY Times, May 16th, 2006
Rising exports last month show that global demand for Chinese goods is even stronger than most experts had expected, said Qu Hongbin, an HSBC economist who specializes in China.

"The Chinese trade surplus is not going to narrow significantly in the short term," he predicted.


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You ask again who is going to buy Chinese goods without the U.S.?

Again, the answer is - the rest of the world.
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Yes, we are a huge trading partner with China - but we're not even 1/3rd of their total income from exports. We're at an increasing deficit, but you know what they are buying with that money coming in?! They are buying our infrastructure and dollar reserve notes (read, that massive national debt we're racking up - foreign nations own 22% of it) If America ceases to be a good investment opportunity, then there is little sense in keeping all that money in the form of the dollar. By the way, check that national debt link out - its interesting how much money is owed by our government TO our own government. The cries of the out of control debt ruining every generation is more that our government has devalued our own currency by PRINTING SO MUCH OF IT. We're doing the most damage to us ourselves.

By holding down the value of the currency, known as the yuan or renminbi, China makes its exports more competitive in overseas markets. But to prevent the yuan from rising, China's central bank buys more than $10 billion a month of foreign currency from the country's companies and individuals, giving them yuan instead.

The People's Bank of China, the country's central bank, has steadfastly maintained that the country's trade surplus is the result of broad, structural economic forces, and not the result of its decision to peg its currency to the dollar at a level that makes Chinese wages and other costs seem very cheap by international standards. Zhou Xiaochuan, the governor of the central bank, has contended that China's high savings rate — means that China inevitably produces considerably more goods than it consumes, shipping the difference overseas.

The urban household savings rate in China approaches 50 percent, compared to near zero for American families.

Who fares better in depression? A nation with a solid manufacturing and global trade surplus and savings? Or a nation with a declining manufacturing base, an ignorant populace, groslly inflated currency and trade deficits?



[edit on 23-5-2006 by Violent]

You all should be most concerned about those 52 missing nukes that disappeared off the black market. If you had them, you could control the world and nobody would ever even hear of you if you told them not to mention your name.

You all should ask yourself, WHERE ARE THOSE MINI NUKES?

I KNOW! OH YES I DO. I CAN PROVE IT TOO.