The plight of Iraqi children and academics

There was a coment by someone, won't name them, in another thread that one of the good things about the 'liberation of iraq' is that iraqi girls will finally be able to get a proper education, one they couldn't get when Saddam was in power.

Well i'd like to make the point that the Iraqi education system doesn't function anymore... Firstly, hundreds of Iraqi proffessors and intellectuals have been assassinated in an organised campeign to bring about a 'Brain Drain' in Iraq... Thats what all imperial occupying armies do... they kill off the intellectuals... the germans did it when they rolled into Poland, they rounded up every intellectual, teacher and proffessor and murdered them. I've visted Krakow where they were taken out into the woods and shot.

Then there's the fact that Iraq is a country under a brutal occupation. How are Iraqi children supposed to learn in that environment? Human rights organisations estimate that tens of thousands of Iraqi children have been killed since the war began. And hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children have lost a family member. Not to mention the epidemic of abduction of children, and their displacement as the current sectarian violence has driven many fatherless and motherless children into refugee camps. I'm sure the children are skipping and playing hopscotch at school during lunch break...

Not to mention that the schools are in a total state of disrepair. No electricy, water, damage from the war... Anyway, i think you get the picture... Iraq isn't exactly a constructive environment for education. Iraq is such a *snip* hole now, excuse my french, that six year old girls have been kidnapped FROM school by assassins hell bent on causing a civil war... what happens to the girls? Their mutilated bodies are found in trash dumpsters...

But i guess someone will argue that, eventually Iraq will stabalise and the children will have good lives and good educations... well, i submist that things are gonna get ALOT worse in Iraq. It's almost full blown civil war now and there's ethnic cleansing going on. I dont think it's crazy to say that a million Iraqi's could die a violent death in the next 10 years... Robert Fisk has been saying that the US has set up death squads in Iraq to stir up sectarian violence, with the hope of dividing Iraq into three seperate 'ethnically pure' states. I believe that is happening. Before you label Fisk as a jerk, or ignorant... realise that he's actually met Osama Bin Laden at least twice before 9/11... he probably knows more about whats going on in the middle east than any westener alive. Entire Sunni neighberhoods in Baghdad have become essentially fortresses... completely isolated... for their own protection.

And as a side note, Bush isn't a JERK... he's a WAR CRIMINAL... Well i guess that depends on your definition of War Criminal... in this orwellian world it's all about interpretation isn't it... Well, lying to every american and citizen of the world, instilling fear in them so they'll support the brutal invasion and occupation of a foreign country... thats a war crime... but just to ice the cake, they're actually to start a civil war in that country... with the hope that ethnic cleansing and sectarian violence will allow the americans to sit back, relax, and watch the country turn into a textbook example of the balkans. Well... i guess none of that is a war crime right?

Maybe 50 years from now when all the lies come out, history will label Bush and his cronies as a 21st century Adolf Hitler.


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[edit on 5/21/2006 by 12m8keall2c]

[edit on 21-5-2006 by metallicabrainz]

Wow I'm surprised you were able to form your Anti Bush thoughts into such a large post. Lets go over your beliefs.

1. You think it would be better if Saddam was put back into power

2. You think that George Bush is assassinating all the teachers and people capable of teaching in Iraq.

3. You think that George Bush is somehow related to Nazi atrocities at Krakow because you have been there.

4. You think that the US military is a brutal occupation force.

5. You think that George Bush is responsible for the criminals kidnapping and mutilating little girls in Iraq and then putting them in dumpsters.

6. You think the US has death squads to make a 'ethnically pure' Iraq because Robert Fisk said so and you think after all hes a great guy because he met osama ben ladden TWICE!!

7. You think that George Bush isn't a jerk but he is a war criminal.

8. You think every American has had fear instilled in them so that they will support a "brutal invasion force" made up of those same Americans...

9. You think Americans are ethnic cleansing to start a civil war so they can set back and relax.

10. You think that history will judge George Bush as a Hitler and his supporters as Nazi party members..

Now that I have simplified your anti Bush / anti American statements its so much easier to see how much of a stretch that was for you to write such a large post based on such a narrow hatred.

Talk about putting words in someone's mouth!!!

Did what i wrote really need simplifying anyway? I don't think so... ohh, but you weren't simplifying... you were making assumptions and editing my own words to make me sound like a fanatical terrorist!!!

1. You think it would be better if Saddam was put back into power

If you actually re-read my post, you'll see that i didn't say that anywhere... didn't even insinuate that... talk about making sh*t up just to discredit me. Since YOU brought it up, i actually think Saddam was a monster, but a necessary monster to glue Iraq together. You used to be able to go shopping at a market in Iraq without having to worry about getting blown up. Also, Shia and Sunni USED to get along quite well...What do we have now? Wholesale sectarian violence. AND IM NOT SAYING THAT THERE NEVER WAS SECTARIAN VIOLENCE IN IRAQ WHILE SADDAM WAS THERE... but now it's wholesale.

2. You think that George Bush is assassinating all the teachers and people capable of teaching in Iraq.

This is a textbook attempt at diverting attention away from the point i actually made... which is that there is a brain drain going on in Iraq. I did not say that Geroge Bush was doing it, do i really have to remind you that he's either horse back riding in texas or sitting on some cushion in the white house sipping champeigne? Someone however, IS killing off the Iraqi intellectuals... who would benefit from such a thing? hmmm... perhaps the occupying powers. Have you ever heard of the Brussels Tribunal on Iraq? Here's a link and a quote:

A little known aspect of the tragedy engulfing Iraq is the systematic liquidation of the country's academics. Even according to conservative estimates, over 250 educators have been assassinated, and many hundreds more have disappeared. With thousands fleeing the country in fear for their lives, not only is Iraq undergoing a major brain drain, the secular middle class - which has refused to be co-opted by the US occupation - is being decimated, with far-reaching consequences for the future of Iraq...According to the United Nations University, some 84 per cent of Iraq's institutions of higher education have already been burnt, looted or destroyed. Iraq's educational system used to be among the best in the region; one of the country's most important assets was its well-educated people.

www.brusselstribunal.org...

3. You think that George Bush is somehow related to Nazi atrocities at Krakow because you have been there.

Thats absurd... because i've been there? Are you high? Once again, you try to divert attention away from the point i was making with your rediculous logic. I made the point that the attrocities in Iraq are similiar to those commited by the germans while Poland was under nazi occupation. And that's a fair comparison.

4. You think that the US military is a brutal occupation force.

Yes i do... finally you've made an assertion that actually represents what i wrote! Congradulations, if we ever meet in person i'll give you a brownie and a hug. Can anyone dispute that the US is a brutal occupation force? Abu Graib, the use of DU, the hundred thousand or so dead civilians killed by US firepower, FALUJAH... and i can't stress FALUJAH enough. Of course the US military is a brutal occupation force! Your certainly not a bunch of teletubbies!

5. You think that George Bush is responsible for the criminals kidnapping and mutilating little girls in Iraq and then putting them in dumpsters.

Indirectly he is responsible, because we wouldn't be in Iraq if he hadn't orderd the US to invade. There's ample evidence that the Special Police Commandos of the Iraqi Interior Ministry are assassinating and torturing Shia people, and that INCLUDES little girls... who trained the Police Commandos? The US did, with the use of US advisors who trained the death squads used in Argentina and other south american countries during the 80s.

6. You think the US has death squads to make a 'ethnically pure' Iraq because Robert Fisk said so and you think after all hes a great guy because he met osama ben ladden TWICE!!

I don't believe this because Fisk reported it, i used him as an example of a prominent journalist who has made this assertion. Even the god damn pentagon said they're considering using the 'El Salvador' option in Iraq! The El Salvador option IS the use of death squads!! You think Fisk meeting Osama makes him 'not a great guy'? The CIA met with him too... guess the CIA aint great guys either huh. Actually, Fisk interviewed Osama, and those interviews have given the world a unique insite into Osama's views... thats beneficial to fighting the war on terror, knowing how and what the enemy is thinking... and interviewing is what journalists DO, so don't insinuate that he's a criminal for doing it. Besides, all of this was before 9/11, when you probably didn't even know who Osama was!

7. You think that George Bush isn't a jerk but he is a war criminal.

He might be both! Do you have any logical reasoning powers at all? The point i was making, once again i have to explain it to you, is that it's silly for people to even discuss if Bush is a jerk or not... cuz he's worse... he's a war criminal... who cares about his personal character, this isn't highschool! Even if he was a friendly guy, his actions and policies make him a war criminal.

8. You think every American has had fear instilled in them so that they will support a "brutal invasion force" made up of those same Americans...

Who can deny that the Bush administration has tried to scare the US public... the whole WMD, mushroom cloud, nuclear-armed Saddam BS was designed to SCARE the american people into supporting an invasion of Iraq... there's so much evidence supporting the fact that Bush manipulated the US public that i don't see why you even bothered to write 'You think...'. Truth is, we all KNOW that's exactly what happened. Saddam had NOTHING to do with 9/11, but many americans thought he did as polls have shown. Your trying to say that just because the troops are american that the president doesn't NEED to whip the public up into a war frenzy? Believe it or not, there are many people who don't support wars based on blind nationalist patriotism alone.

9. You think Americans are ethnic cleansing to start a civil war so they can set back and relax.

Several influential people in the US have SAID that Iraq should be partioned into three states, including Henry Kissinger and Negroponte. Do some research and you'll come across a political science term called 'BALKANISATION' which means, breaking up a country into ethnically pure states... and guess where the word came from? From the US and NATO actions in Yugoslavia! We broke that country up and encouraged ethnic cleansing and civil war. Its called divide and conquer. So if it happened then, why not now.

10. You think that history will judge George Bush as a Hitler and his supporters as Nazi party members..

He's already judged as a Hitler by his victims! Ask anyone in south america who's suffered his economic policies or any Iraqi! Didn't you see the reaction Bush got when he visitied Argentina to promote his Free Trade mumbo jumbo!? There were huge riots, people weren't laying down palm leaves at his feet.

Now, if you want to completely misinterpret everything i wrote once again, and put words in my mouth in the name of 'simplifying', then go right ahead... You've earnt one brownie so far for that one simplifcation you made which was actually representitive of what i wrote and and not a complete fabrication... maybe you'll earn another brownie in your next post!!!

Since you accused me of being anti-american i have to make one last point... Calling someone anti-american is a textbook example of nationalism gone crazy... your confusing the 'state' with the 'public'. Its a dangerous thing... to accuse anyone of being anti-american. Please repeat the following as a mantra before you go to bed...The Bush administration does not represent every american!

And i never said it did. This isn't the first time in history that nationalism has gone too far... people were labelled as anti-german in Nazi Germany and anti-communist under Stalin's rule.

Can't you see what your turning into?

[edit on 21-5-2006 by metallicabrainz]

One more point that i think you ought to look into metallicabrainz, is its not the Coalition that is destroying schools now. Its the insurgents/terrorists/freedom fighters/suicide bombers(call them what you will) that are targeting schools and teachers.

The news has been full of such things in recent times.

I'm not saying that schools were systematically destroyed, but there are bound to have been some that did get destroyed in the initial bombing.

How about the school reported in the news not so long ago, that was taken over by the insurgents? The Army had no choice but to level the building. This would not have happened if the insurgents hadn't been there.

How about the school reported in the news not so long ago, that was taken over by the insurgents? The Army had no choice but to level the building. This would not have happened if the insurgents hadn't been there.

This wouldn't have happened if the insurgents hadn't been there... well, what's the logic behind that? There wouldn't be any 'insurgents' if the US hadn't invaded in the first place!

The army had no choice? How about, they could leave the country that they have no right to be in. But thats right, no-one contemplates that possibility... why do so many of us seem to be accepting the current state of world affairs? There's so many examples of what im saying here. For example, i can't remember how many times i've heard even 'liberal' commentators say that we CAN ONLY leave after we've established a government and an Iraqi police force and army. And if that sounds even 1% reasonable to you, then think of this analogy:

WW2, the german occupation of France. Imagine how stupid it would sound if a German official told the world that Germany can only leave France after we've established a 'friendly' police force and army there! Gee, thats fair...

I should remind you that the US and Coalition are not respecting Iraqi institutions such as Jails and Hospitals... Remember how about the british used tanks to break into that jail in Basra? Or how about the fact that the US military occupies HOSPITALS and shoots at ambulances... all war crimes. Maybe when the US and Coalition begin to respect Iraqi institutians, then it won't be as hypocritical for you to say that its only the insurgency who would do something that aint kosher like say... take over schools.

Insurgents or no insurgents. This was happening for a long time under Saddams rule.

Remember how about the british used tanks to break into that jail in Basra?

Yes the British used a tank to break into the jail. Why? To get out two British soldiers who were there. At least they got to keep their heads. Others have not been so fortunate.

Or how about the fact that the US military occupies HOSPITALS and shoots at ambulances...

They occupy them to protect and treat the casualties that are coming in daily.

I should remind you that the US and Coalition are not respecting Iraqi institutions such as Jails and Hospitals...

And i should remind you how the insurgents attack innocent people and bomb places of worship with the aid of brain washed suicide bombers? Is that respect?

And as for War crimes? How about the innocent aid workers who had their heads hacked off? How about the thousands killed under Saddam?
Whos guilty of that? The US? The British?

And as for War crimes? How about the innocent aid workers who had their heads hacked off? How about the thousands killed under Saddam? Whos guilty of that? The US? The British?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Yes the British used a tank to break into the jail. Why? To get out two British soldiers who were there. At least they got to keep their heads. Others have not been so fortunate.

Ohh you must be reffering to the two SAS soldiers, dressed in arab garb who had shot dead an iraqi policeman and were driving a car full of weapons and explosives... right... nothing suspicous going on there

They occupy them to protect and treat the casualties that are coming in daily.

Ohh so thats why they tie up the medical personel and leave them lying on the floor. And if you've heard anything about what happened in fallujah, you'll realise that the US actually shot at ambulences to stop them from taking injured iraqi's to hospitals.

And i should remind you how the insurgents attack innocent people and bomb places of worship with the aid of brain washed suicide bombers? Is that respect?

I would argue that it's mainly the CIA or CIA trained mercenaries who are planting the bombs at the places of worship. Or perhaps naive Iraqi's tricked into doing it. Read what Robert Fisk is saying about that.

I'm not trying to say the 'war' in Iraq is a one-sided affair nor am I defending Saddam's criminal regime
but
I suggest people have a look at what is going on out there through as many different 'eyes' as possible and consider how you would feel if this was you home/town/country that was being occupied and levelled by outsiders.

This is a bittorrent of a recent, interesting and excellent documentry from the UK's award-winning Channel 4 network -

www.indybay.org...

I think this is getting a wee bit off topic metallicabrainz, so i am going to end it here.

I don't want to see either of us with a warning, so i think its best we get back on topic, and stop this back and forth, rights and wrongs. We will not agree on this, and it could and will go for ages.

Like i said, lets quit while are ahead, and without any warnings. I suppose we could carry it on via email or U2U if you wanted.

Cheers
Eddie..........

Originally posted by metallicabrainz

This wouldn't have happened if the insurgents hadn't been there... well, what's the logic behind that? There wouldn't be any 'insurgents' if the US hadn't invaded in the first place!

whats the logic behind that? that these people would not be insurgents/terrorists under saddam or would simply blink out of existance like magic? or would they have been simply tortured and thrown into a prison under saddam and never heard about? what sounds more logical to you?

The army had no choice? How about, they could leave the country that they have no right to be in. But thats right, no-one contemplates that possibility...

sure they have contemplated it...but its called SURRENDER! and its also called treason.... and no, trying to get insurgents out of a school building is not a WAR CRIME!!

I don't agree with the idea that the U.S is actively seeking the liquidation of Iraq's interlecturals but I don't believe they are doing much to help them ether. This is because many of Iraq's interlecturals are hostile to the occupation (Kids with U.S candy seem to be a bit different though).
The Sunni were privillaged under Saddam. He favoured them not just because he was one of them, but more because they were'nt the fundermentalist Muslims (who make up about 60% of Iraq's population). Therefore these people became very educated. They are therefore targets for everybody from kidnappers to the Shiite fundermentalists who infiltrate the police.

Even if the Americans wanted to wipe out Iraq's interlecturals they would'nt have to try. Our intervention on the behalf of the people of Iraq has set about a "natural process" were you ether get involved in politics (and probably die) or find a way out of Iraq (and probably live). Regardless of the motivation(s) or causes that have brought about metallicabrainz points, they still remain part of daily Iraqi reality.