I Once Dreamed of Liberty (Op/Ed)

Originally posted by Muaddib
SO the problem seems to be that you, and some other people, think that the votes that count are only of the minority.

I think you misunderstood... our votes don't count, at least in presidential elections.

but at the end the majority is the one who decides who is going to be president/senator etc, etc.

That's the essence of the system that we're supposed to have. Agreed.

Please don't give me as an example to back your claim a poll of questions asked to 1,000-3,000 people.

Polls are worthless. I could design two 5-question polls that give conflicting results from the same sample of people.

can gather more people than the war protesters can

How'd that get in here? (confused) Can you help me understand where that was supposed to go? (I couldn't follow the logic.)

BTW, another member has given several times links as to how "the economy and unemployment is doing nowadays", and the numbers prove differently to what you are saying.

I didn't comment on the economy... which is mixed BTW. In any event, there's far too much speculation on equities, commodities, and currency for a stable economy.

mrwupy, thanks for the quote. The last sentence is especially thought provoking.

What is it that drives humans, time and time again, to such lunacy? We've got these huge brains, but we can't seem to figure it out. It's so frustrating!

History shows us that what some of us think is happening, whatever you want to call it, has happened before. Many times. It, whatever you want to call it, always takes a different form. Sometimes, I get the impression that a large number of Americans think that Americans are not capable of those terrible events of our past. Maybe it's the fancy suits, and power ties, and big words (George is not so good here,) and all those pretty lies. Did I miss the spiritual revolution that ushered in the new heroes?

We're not as smart as we think we are. The birds must be doing something right though. They're outside my window, every one, almost every morning singing away like they have not a care in the world. When I wake up; after my shower; after I eat; outside my car window as I'm driving to work. Always singing.

I think I'd trade in my big screen tv, and cool stereo, and lobster tails, for a bit of that.

Where the heck are we going so fast.

Thanks for listening.

And Benevolent Heretic's post, I think back on page 3, was fantastic. It really expressed perfectly some of the subtleties of the slow march.

Great thread, SO

Originally posted by truthseeka
...............
Ceci (I had a feeling you were black

), you made a great point in an earlier post on this page. I can definitely see how black people would be wary of the direction the country is going in. I think the problem some here have is that they haven't had their rights taken in the supposedly free US after all the drama.

That's one of the weakest arguments i have heard about... Being black doesn't give anyone more insight, or make them any more intelligent... Just like being white doesn't make anyone any more or less intelligent...or being Asian doesn't make anyone any more or less intelligent... You can find intelligent and not so smart people in all races...

BTW, perhaps you have missed the following...

Jason Haap, aka "the Dean of Cincinnati", serves as a great example of white liberals who can't stand free-thinking African Americans. White liberals are quick to attack African Americans who refuse to follow their lead like slaves.

blackcincinnati.blogspot.com...

So much for you trying to make people believe that black people must all be liberals....or they all agree with you...

Originally posted by truthseeka
Muaddib, I have a question for you and the others who share your position. What the hell is a free speech zone in America?

If I remember correctly that was a term given by the liberal media to the places where protesters could be... and we all saw in the same liberal media how well behaved those protesters were... We all saw how groups of them continued to throw items including bottles and proceeded to try to bring down the fences that were put in place to stop people like them from becoming violent and trying to reach the presidential motorade...

Originally posted by truthseeka
Then again...I think you actually know what's going on and support it. I'm basing this on your America vs. US comment. Your description of America smacks strongly of the planned American Union. Too much for this to be coincidence...

What in the world are you talking about?....

America vs U.S. comment.... There is a difference between America and the United States...in case you didn't know.... There is North America, Central America and South America and it has been like this for a long time.... The United States is North America, but there is also South America and Central America... and just for your information, the first place where Colombus landed was right in the caribean island San Salvador, what is now known as the Bahamas, and those islands were part of the new world...

I am amazed that anyone would try to dismiss facts and then claim that since i am stating facts I must be some sort of government spook.... Like that was something new...

People like yourself always try to dismiss the facts by claiming such things...

[edit on 18-5-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally quoted by Muaddib

That's one of the weakest arguments i have heard about... Being black doesn't give anyone more insight, or make them any more intelligent... Just like being white doesn't make anyone any more or less intelligent...or being Asian doesn't make anyone any more or less intelligent... You can find intelligent and not so smart people in all races...

You missed the entire point Muaddib. What truthseeka was referring to was the long struggle for African-Americans to be counted as "people" and as "Americans". I'm sure you can understand the American part because you are very patriotic. However, Black people do have insight into what it means to have "civil liberties" and "privacy". As slaves, our "civil liberties" and "privacy" was taken away from us. Our culture was stripped away from us when we were brought here. And after the passage of the Emancipation Proclamation we have had to fight one hundred years in order for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to be passed. And then, we still were harassed when we tried to express our freedoms.

I think, besides Native Americans, Black people are probably more sensitive to the issue of civil liberties and privacy because our freedoms have actually been toyed with by the powers that be. And continue to do so by the very virtue of states' rights.

The Voting Rights Act of 1965 allowed Blacks and other people of color in America to be protected as we voted for politicians.

However, judging from Florida and Ohio, the Voting Rights Act of 1965 was violated. And Ashcroft, then Atty. Gen., didn't care to enforce it.






[edit on 19-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
............
The Voting Rights Act of 1965 allowed Blacks and other people of color in American to be protected as we voted for politicians.

However, judging from Florida and Ohio, the Voting Rights Act of 1965 was violated. And Ashcroft, then Atty. Gen. didn't care to enforce it.

Well, i don't know if you have noticed but there are two people who have two of the highest positions in the United States government, and both of them are black.

Things have changed much since the early 1900s.

BTW, I was still living in FLorida during the elections in 2004, and I was part of the elections campaign, I also voted and I saw people of all races vote, including black people.

(look at Skippy.....look at Skippy.....ah...much better)[thanks, *seagull*, btw.]

I'd be more inclined to believe you if you were present at all the voting precincts--especially in Dade and Broward Counties.

Although it is commended that you were part of the elections process, I respectfully say that you must have been asleep when Black Congresspeople went in front of Congress complaining about the "hanging chads".

Why do you think there was a recount? Why do you think Republican Aides (along with Mr. DeLay and Mr. Boelton) stormed the ballot counting offices?

And why would Rep. Conyers, Greg Palast and others write books about the wrongs that were committed in the voting processes of the 2000 and 2004 Presidential elections?

Why do you think in the 2004 elections, International Observers were called?



[edit on 19-5-2006 by ceci2006]

About Blacks in government: Yes, you are right. Times have changed. But you don't understand that it took a long time since the first slaves came in the 17th Century that Black people have been able to be in positions that high.

And, we still have a long way to go. How long do you think it would be before America has its first Black president?

But then again, I think that you just don't get it.

Originally posted by ceci2006
About Blacks in government: Yes, you are right. Times have changed. But you don't understand that it took a long time since the first slaves came in the 17th Century that Black people have been able to be in positions that high.

And, we still have a long way to go. How long do you think it would be before America has its first Black president?

But then again, I think that you just don't get it.

So now you are stating that black people are only going to be truly free when the first President is black?....

Perhaps you have no idea how many black warlords are supressing, killing and starving black people in Africa as we speak, and yes, there are and have been even black people who were/are dictators.

The skin color of a person doesn't make a person good or bad, but i guess you just don't get it.

[edit on 19-5-2006 by Muaddib]

And about your comment on people writting books, well there are all sorts of books being written nowadays, and not all of them are based on facts.

Again, you are assuming what I'm trying to say. And maybe if you really read books regarding colonialism and slavery you might get a picture of what truthseeka and myself are trying to say. Wasn't Cuba a slave colony from the 18th to 19th Century?

I am saying that it took this long for Black people to be in positions of power. I think that race and political power is growing gradually. But there are those in elite positions that don't want it to happen.

That's why it might seem like an achievement for two Black people to be in prominent positions. But do you understand that it took nearly five hundred years to put them there? Why do you think that was so? And GWB is not entirely altruistic. He put those two people in power because of his own selfish political reasons--to pad up "compassionate conservatism" (another doublespeak word I don't understand).


And about the books which talk about the election: it is your right to believe they are not in your best interest. However, they're out there and too numerous to count. And if you read them, you could at least support or refute them instead of out and out dismissing them.





[edit on 19-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Well, i don't know if you have noticed but there are two people who have two of the highest positions in the United States government, and both of them are black.

What's your point?

Currently there are a record number of 43 black or "African-American" congress members that serve in the 109th Congress with 42 in the House of Representatives and one in the Senate. Freshman Senator Barack Obama of Illinois is the first black, male, Democrat to serve in the Senate. While fourteen black women serve in the 109th Congress, all in the House.

kokonutpundits.blogspot.com...

For the House that would mean 9.6% of members are black. In the Senate, 1% is Black. For reference, the percentage of black in the US is around 12.5%.

The disparaties for Hispanics is even larger obviously and non-Hispanic white people end up being overrepresented.

For women, the statistics are even more disparate...

As of 2004, there are 70 women serving the U.S. House and 14 in the U.S. Senate. This is the highest number of women to hold Congressional office at one time.

en.wikipedia.org...
That would 16.1% women in the House and 14% in the Senate. The percentage of women in America is 50.7%.

Population statistics from www.census.gov... .

I guess freedom of choice for a black female will generally mean they get to choose between two white guys.

[edit on 19-5-2006 by Jamuhn]

Ceci, i think i understand exactly what you have been saying. I haven't put any words in your mouth, and you are now trying to change the topic by asking me to read all sorts of books, which obviously would be impossible.

By what I have read, you seem to have a real big problem with the president not being black. But I have to tell you that the fact remains that the color of skin of a person, does not make them good or bad and no book is going to change my mind on that...


[edit on 19-5-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Jamuhn
What's your point?
.........................

I guess freedom of choice for a black female will generally mean they get to choose between two white guys.

No Jamuhn, the question is "what is your point"?....

You are playing with numbers trying to claim what exactly?...

Has it crossed your mind that most people don't vote according to the color of skin of the representatives, senators, governors people are voting for?....

Then at the end of your post you are making a racist joke and you think this is proving something?

[edit on 19-5-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by Jamuhn
I guess freedom of choice for a black female will generally mean they get to choose between two white guys.

No Jamuhn, the question is "what is your point"?....

I left it above for you to read again.

Has it crossed your mind that most people don't vote according to the color of skin of the representatives, senators, governors people are voting for?....

I knew you would say this. In an ideal world Muadibb, this WOULD BE true. But, in the real world, this is a false statement. If the color of skin and gender were not a factor then the disparities would not be so large. I guess it just happens to be that over 70-90% of the time, a white male is the best candidate? That's a nice excuse. I guess if you accept that racism and prejudice based on gender exists in this country, then you would have to speak up or do something about. Denying it is the best away to assure you won't have to do anything about it, right?

Then at the end of your post you are making a racist joke and you think this is proving something?

That's not a joke. That's a reality.

I wish that the color of skin, ethnicity, or gender was not a factor, but, for many it is. You can see this not only by the "numbers game", but also by the constant comments seen in the news and in our daily lives.

[edit on 19-5-2006 by Jamuhn]

[edit on 19-5-2006 by Jamuhn]

Have I said that I would have a problem if the President were not Black? No. Heck, Muaddib. All the Presidents in history have been White!?!

There are Presidents that I respect--regardless of their color.

I think that you have to re-read Jamuhn's post again. That is what I've been trying to say.

There is a disparity in government.

About reading books about colonialism and slavery, you don't have to read them if you don't want to. But correct me if I am wrong. Cuba was also a slave colony based on a color bar. Did you ever learn anything about slavery and colonialism? Do you know what a colonial power is? Were there any Black elites? Any history of powerful Blacks in Cuba?

Doesn't it even cross your mind about why you haven't seen many Black people in power especially in America?








[edit on 19-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Oh...so the "trashing of the dixie chicks" is a calamity, but the "trashing of the president is "free speech"?....


[edit on 16-5-2006 by Muaddib]

Oh come on Muaddib you are smarter than that...bush (or any politican for that matter) is a public servant (something they would do well to remember) and should expect to be exposed to public criticism, look at the commons in Britian they rake the PM over the coals. It is one way we hold them accountable. besides that it is the very freedom to criticize that is in question here. It is not how we treat the loyalists, it is how we treat those in opposition that's the acid test.

Originally posted by grover

Originally posted by Muaddib
Oh...so the "trashing of the dixie chicks" is a calamity, but the "trashing of the president is "free speech"?....


[edit on 16-5-2006 by Muaddib]

Oh come on Muaddib you are smarter than that...bush (or any politican for that matter) is a public servant (something they would do well to remember) and should expect to be exposed to public criticism, look at the commons in Britian they rake the PM over the coals. It is one way we hold them accountable. besides that it is the very freedom to criticize that is in question here. It is not how we treat the loyalists, it is how we treat those in opposition that's the acid test.

I'm normally in opposition to Grover, but this time I have to take his side. Anytime someone runs for office, they have to expect criticism. Just part of the job.

Look at what we did to Clinton.

Yea, he deserved it, but still "sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander"

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
I think you misunderstood... our votes don't count, at least in presidential elections.

How did you reach that conclusion SO? Because the presidential elections did not go as you planned?

I have heard all about the Diebold machines, but what i have found extremely interesting is that the same people who keep claiming elections were rigged in the United States, claim that elections were not rigged at all in Venezuela.

I'll tell you right now what Venezuela has to do with the elections in the U.S.

I also found extremely interesting that none of these same people who have made these claims has said anything about Smartmatic, who has Venezuelan owners who have ties with the anti-American regime of Chavez, has acquired California-based Sequoia Voting Systems.

www.miami.com...

Chavez supporters now control one of the major U.S. e-voting firms, yet none of those people who kept claiming there was massive corruption in the elections in 2004 in the U.S. are even mentioning this.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
That's the essence of the system that we're supposed to have. Agreed.

That is the system that we have. If the elections did not go as you planned and because of this you want to keep claiming that we have no voice, that is your problem.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Polls are worthless. I could design two 5-question polls that give conflicting results from the same sample of people.

Well, quite a few people around here keep showing polls made to 1,000-3,000 people and claim this is what the entire population of the U.S. thinks...

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
How'd that get in here? (confused) Can you help me understand where that was supposed to go? (I couldn't follow the logic.)

You can't understand the logic that 10 million illegal immigrants have been able to gather more people, who should be more scared than any American citizens becasue they are illegals than the anti-war protestors and those who keep protesting against president Bush?



[edit on 19-5-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by semperfortis
I'm normally in opposition to Grover, but this time I have to take his side. Anytime someone runs for office, they have to expect criticism. Just part of the job.

Look at what we did to Clinton.

Yea, he deserved it, but still "sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander"

What i was trying to convey is that just in the same manner that it is in their right for people to say whatever they think about president Bush, it is also the right of people to say what is in their minds about "the Dixie Chicks"....

I find it ironic that when people criticize president Bush, "it is free speech"...but if people criticize "the Dixie Chicks" it is some sort of "oppresion"....

Now that I think about it, Muaddib. You may be right. We should just forget everything and everybody. I came to a conclusion. Maybe there is some sense that we should follow our leader and be done with it.

Get rid of the terrorists. Get rid of the illegal immigrants. Get rid of everyone that isn't patriotic.

And we should just shut up and let the government tap our phones, mine our personal records and take whatever dignity we have left.

We should not worry or care.

After all, this is a Brave New World. This is a world in which the fist rules and the conquerers win. And the conquered just lie down and take it. Spread eagle. After all, they are cannon fodder. Collateral damage.

And you're right here too. There's no racism. No difference. No different languages. Nothing.

English should only be spoken.

And let's build the wall so that we can show our American pride.

Use the Diebold machines in our elections and don't fight for our rights when they get hacked into. Don't even care about the hanging chads.

There's nothing see or believe in anymore.

After all, it is better to be blind to all the social ills in the world and forget the corruption in government.

I envy your outlook Muaddib. If I had it, I'd probably be blind to the government and learn to the love the bomb just like you.

[edit on 19-5-2006 by ceci2006]