I Once Dreamed of Liberty (Op/Ed)

You two should just get a room and be done with it.

What a stroke fest.

semperfortis:

It's my opinion that the best way to defeat evil is through being a good example, as that leads others to follow in the same footsteps. We're not making a good example out of this little "war" over there. We're making a mockery of the very values that we Americans hold so dear.

Now don't get me wrong, I like what we've accomplished for the Iraqi people, but if they throw it back in our faces no matter what, who are we to force them to live the way we do? That's the dilemma I find myself in every day when I wake up, and the last one I have when I go to sleep. "Freedom is never free". That phrase will always ring loud and true for me. However, for the purposes of making a point, I would like to add to that statement by saying that it's never free unless someone else comes and does it for you. If we continue to allow those people that profit off of these wars to do so, there will be no end to war. It has to stop somewhere. Where and when are the main questions.

When will the US Presidential Administration realize that it will never defeat all evil, and instead narrow the field a bit, to a more local standpoint? They can't even keep corrupt politicians out of their own ranks, let alone stop the evils of terrorist organizations worldwide. They're so messed up that they can't even figure out what sounds good anymore. They've lost touch with reality and with the American People. As long as humans exist, so will evil. We need to stay vigilant in our offensive against it, but we must make more of an effort to not become the very evil we're trying to destroy.

TheBorg

[edit on 13-6-2006 by TheBorg]

Originally posted by semperfortis
I believe that evil needs to be hunted out where ever it lies in hiding and destroyed. I do not believe we should wait for it to come knocking here before we act.

With that in mind, how would you react to the overwhelming body of circumstantial and some overt evidence that this U.S. administration is engaged in what many consider "evil"? There are certainly enough discussions about horrible tactics of the U.S. government on sites like ATS to warrant raised eyebrows among even the staunchest mainstreamers.

There comes a time when the strong must act, simply because the weak will not.

Noble ideals... following in the tradition of "If not us... then who? If not now... then when?"

Rewinding back to the beginning of this thread, and many of the supportive responses... there is a trend among many of the more serious "conspiracy theorists" that the freedoms and liberties paid for with the blood of heros are being eroded by a system of government that has long forgotten it's republic birth. The "government" would have us aspire to standards of conduct it itself cannot keep. We're told the sacrifice of failed ethics are for the good of protecting our safety. We're told the sacrifice of failed ethics are for the good of awarding "freedom" to a select few. We're told the sacrifice of failed ethics is at the discretion of the chief.

Originally posted on page one of this thread
I can still feel the exuberance of discovery. That moment of clarity that revealed to me the powerful dreams of unimaginably brave people who dared to set forth a new nation. With brilliant strokes of a mighty pen, a nation based on self-evident truths and liberty sprung into extraordinary life. The genius of the words and the sacrifice of their champions resonate with undeniable power throughout history.

I want to have pride in this country again. I want to see the rest of the world look to us with admiration. I want to stop speculating on the myriad of conspiracy rumors inspired by a corrupt system. I want my children and your children to live in a world where someone is an unqualified example of freedom, ethics, and nobility. I want people like yourself to stop needing to be on the defensive in regard to the policies of the US government. I want the reasons for ATS's popularity to cease.



So I'd like to modify your quote and bring it into the 21st century: "All it takes for evil to triumph, is for good men to fail to recognize they have been deceived."

Original quote by SkepticOverlord
So I'd like to modify your quote and bring it into the 21st century: "All it takes for evil to triumph, is for good men to fail to recognize they have been deceived."

This is a wonderful adaptation of an already brilliant quote

I hope you dont mind but im going to put your quote(with credit) in my sig

Our country has always been, and still is, a beacon to others throoughout the world. Why else would people risk all they have in order to get here? Cuban refugee's risking death by drowning, by shark, and not least, death by Cuban police to get here. Mexican, and other Central American people, risking everything to reach the dream that we represent. Asians of all sorts risk deathe to get here. Why? Because we still represent a dream to them...freedoms they do not have in their own homelands.

We who live here, and have all our lives, know the reality. We aren't perfect, not by most any measure, no. The streets aren't golden, or even in some places, paved. It's the dream that this country represents that draws them here through so much danger.

It's our responsibility as the guardians of that dream to at least try to live up to that ideal, and most importantly, to protect it. It is our own apathy that is the greatest risk to that dream.

The dream that brings all these brave people here is as real as those people. This can't be repeated often enough: It is up to us to protect it, the dream, from abuse or death at the hands of people who would have it otherwise, no matter who they are, or where they are.

Our methods are up to debate, without a doubt. I've disagreed with many of those methods, as have we all, but never the end.

I think we can all agree on the end. The continuation of the dream, and what it represents to so very many people in the world. The world would be much, much poorer should we fail in our responsibility to not only ourselves, but those whom we will never meet and don't know. They know us, however. Or at least what we, as America, represent to all those multitudes.

Your implication, Seagull, that because many of the poorest people in the world (you reference Cubans and Asians) seek a new life here where they can work for poverty wages and (hopefully) not face overt political oppression leads to a necessary conclusion that US of A must still be an awesome country, is a weak argument.

The premise to your conclusion rather supports another quite different conclusion, that the 'bottom line' ethic of all transnational corporations which continues to flee to the cheapest labor sources available to increase profits causes a 'race to the bottom' where considerations such as employee safety, housing, and overall health are simply left out of the equation so as to lure those businesses with cheaper labor. The predation of those desperate enough to work for slave wages leads to this immigration you speak of.

The fact that there are those escaping one level of poverty to graduate to another in the US isn't much to brag about.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

With that in mind, how would you react to the overwhelming body of circumstantial and some overt evidence that this U.S. administration is engaged in what many consider "evil"? There are certainly enough discussions about horrible tactics of the U.S. government on sites like ATS to warrant raised eyebrows among even the staunchest mainstreamers.

There comes a time when the strong must act, simply because the weak will not.

Noble ideals... following in the tradition of "If not us... then who? If not now... then when?"

Rewinding back to the beginning of this thread, and many of the supportive responses... there is a trend among many of the more serious "conspiracy theorists" that the freedoms and liberties paid for with the blood of heros are being eroded by a system of government that has long forgotten it's republic birth. The "government" would have us aspire to standards of conduct it itself cannot keep. We're told the sacrifice of failed ethics are for the good of protecting our safety. We're told the sacrifice of failed ethics are for the good of awarding "freedom" to a select few. We're told the sacrifice of failed ethics is at the discretion of the chief.





So I'd like to modify your quote and bring it into the 21st century: "All it takes for evil to triumph, is for good men to fail to recognize they have been deceived."

First, Your "Overwhelming" body of evidence is believed by many Bush haters, I would expect that. It does not however in anyway make me believe the fabricated stories, out of context quotes and negative spins many are putting on much of what is said by the President. Point of fact, I see the exact opposite from him in particular. There are corrupt politicians as there are corrupt truck drivers, I just don't fall over the lemming ledge that everyone else does in convicting President Bush for speculation and personal feelings.

To use your own quote, a "conspiracy theorist" is not conclusive to the facts. Theory being the operative word. I prefer to make up my own mind and not be swayed by anyone's personal agenda or opinion. Where you see evil, I see a man standing for his convictions against incredible odds. Where you see corruption, I see staunch resolve and a faith in the country I have not seen after Regan.

I am old enough that I do not feel gullible applies to me. I have fought for this country and even managed to reveal some corruption in my line of work, (The subjects now doing time) so I feel I have some small experience in that matter. I do not automatically hate, dislike or look to slander anyone based solely on my feelings or any other persons observations based on suppositions and conjecture. The same can not be said for all conspiracy theorists sadly.

Why is it when someone is strong enough and dedicated enough to this country and the ideals on which it stands, that you automatically assume they are deceived? Many great statesmen, diplomats and educators are/were former military men. Were they all deceived as well? All of those brave souls were wrong and you right?

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis
Why is it when someone is strong enough and dedicated enough to this country and the ideals on which it stands, that you automatically assume they are deceived? Many great statesmen, diplomats and educators are/were former military men. Were they all deceived as well? All of those brave souls were wrong and you right?

Semper

I'm pretty sure this paragraph was directed at SO, but I feel that I should toss in my views on it as well. I think there are people with different viewpoints on which way this country should be taken politically. We can't agree all of the time, but we all should be able to come together and make some sort of compromise on the issues that are ever so important to us. Each person has a certain opinion about everything, whether they like it or not. It's just human nature. As it pertains to this though, I'm one of those people that's "strong enough and dedicated enough to this country and the ideals on which it stands" to fight for what I believe is good and right for my people. I don't think I've been decieved. Rather, I feel I was liberated by my ancestors to be allowed to think as I choose, and to be a protector of the ideals that they set for us.

I simply think that there's more to the story that we're not being told. I want to know, since as a citizen of these United States, I have a right to know why things are the way they are. The government shouldn't hide anything from we people that put them there. They have no right to do anything of the kind. War on Terror or not, we're still citizens of this country, and we still have the obligation to know why our government does what it does. I understand National Security and all, but that's long been used and abused as a means to keep secret those things that they don't want the general public to know. That, to me, is the first sign of a government gone awry.

You're right in stating that many politicians are/were at one point in the military. I'm not saying that all of them have been decieved. I simply think that some are either directly involved with the deception, or they're completely ignorant of the situation altogether. People like to live in their own little worlds, where they don't pay attention to the most fundamental of things.

I know this from retail experience, where I'm currently stationed (sigh). People will not even go so far as to pay any attention to what's going on right in front of them, let alone what someone is saying to them. This goes for a majority of the American population. The question now is why?

As for all of them being wrong, and him right, I know that one was directed at him, so I'll leave that one to him to answer.

I know by now that you know that I'm as patriotic a person as the next man, and that I'd do anything to insure that I continue to stay free, whatever the cost. Tyranny cannot be tolerated at any level, regardless of whom it may include. I just want everyone reading these words, and this thread to know that to prevent this tyranny, we'll all need to keep our eyes out for the subtle nuances that indicate such a thing is taking place, and not to get too complacent to the ideals that we as a nation stand for.

Now I know I may not be the most eloquent speaker around, and I may find it difficult at times to convey my ideas to you all in a timely and orderly fashion, and I apologize for that. I tend to have lengthy monologues, such as this one, where I run all over the place. I'm just trying to cover a day's worth of posts in about 2 hours, in one post. So many things to cover in so little time. I thank you all for listening, and once again, semper and SO, thanks for the mental exercise. You guys keep me mentally fit.

TheBorg

Originally posted by semperfortis
First, Your "Overwhelming" body of evidence is believed by many Bush haters, I would expect that.

I think you misunderstand. The "body of conspiratorial evidence" has been gathered up over a period of years, and includes a systematic progression toward our current policies across a spectrum of White House administrations. Your generalization of "Bush haters" only marginally applies as the typical long-term conspiracy theorist has a natural distaste for any administration.

There are corrupt politicians as there are corrupt truck drivers, I just don't fall over the lemming ledge that everyone else does in convicting President Bush for speculation and personal feelings.

Again, please step back and attempt to drop the focus from Bush. We're talking about the near 50-year history of conspiracy theory research. Certainly, maintaining a fine-focus on Bush offers one the opportunity to dismiss theories of "police state", "lost liberty", and "terrorism complicity" as hate-mongering targeting one administration. But when stepping back to listen to all movements of the long-running "conspiracy symphony" we remember that our government devised a plan to sponsor terrorist attacks on US citizens as a pretext for war (Project Northwoods) and later colluded with terrorists to aid military action (Iran Contra). Two simple factual examples from the myriad of known conspiracies that combine to cause significant concern about current events.

To use your own quote, a "conspiracy theorist" is not conclusive to the facts. Theory being the operative word.

See above. Two examples that show factual representations of conspiracy speculation. If the US government had once planned to coerce terrorists to hijack commercial airlines and fly them into civilian buildings as a pretext to invade a foreign country, we can assume such plans were developed for a reason. If our government once cooperated with a terrorist state holding our citizens hostage, we can assume those tendencies still exist. Theories without basis in proven facts are indeed not worth the words in which they are composed. However, as I mentioned, there is a massive body of conspiracy research that has not only resulted in documented facts, but has predicted the evolution to our current situation with startling accuracy.

Where you see evil, I see a man standing for his convictions against incredible odds.

I understand how you can feel that way. And believe me... I want to feel that way too. I love nothing more than for all the conspiracy speculation we engage in here on ATS to be proven wrong and the core reason for this site's existence fade away into nothing more than a memory.

And don't get me wrong... I don't necessarily see Bush as evil, he's a man of his times shaped by the pressures, dependancies, and sponsors that got him to where he is now. The system, of which Bush is a major part, promotes deeds and actions that can be viewed as evil by many.

Where you see corruption, I see staunch resolve and a faith in the country I have not seen after Regan.

I see staunch resolve also. The same staunch resolve that caused the Regan administration to secretly negotiate arms deals with terrorists holding our citizens (in the months before he was sworn in). This has been documented. Have you not paid attention to history?

I am old enough that I do not feel gullible applies to me

No offense... but in the spirit of helping you see where the "body of conspiratorial evidence" comes from, you really should spend more time with the facts of Iran Contra... and how many of the shady characters that where involved then are involved now (such as... big surprise... Colin Powell).

Why is it when someone is strong enough and dedicated enough to this country and the ideals on which it stands, that you automatically assume they are deceived?

Excellent question... but first... don't think for a moment that I (and others who consider themselves aficionados of conspiracy) are not dedicated to this country and the ideas on which it stands. Re-read my first post. I have a deep and lasting reverence for the brilliant inspiration that birthed a country that has aspirations for eye-watering greatness. Despite the machinations of those who are the targets of our conspiracy speculations, we see regular hints of greatness slip through from time to time. One wonders how much more there could be.

Deception today is rampant. Spin and counter-spin is the nature of the game. News is no longer a factual representation of the days events but finely crafted event-inspired entertainment designed to attract the most viewers and earn the most advertising revenue. Critical thinkers need to expend an effort to dig beyond the news and discover the reality of events... energy that is most often lacking in today's hyper-accelerated society.

Many great statesmen, diplomats and educators are/were former military men. Were they all deceived as well? All of those brave souls were wrong and you right?

I make no claims at "being right". And certainly, modern conspiracy theory is an ugly mess of half-brained theories, unethical profiteers, and the deranged. But bravery has no monopoly on correctness either. While those who choose to sacrifice their time (and potentially lives) to defend the ideals of our constitution have my deepest heart-felt respect, it's not a de-facto justification of the government they serve.

We live in increasingly troubling times. Thankfully, we have a method of engaging each other in dialogue. Nothing is solved without cooperation and collaboration... thanks for the valuable exchange.

This esoteric exchange fails to acknowledge the true horrors and war crimes inflicted by THIS administration from Haditha to Fallujah, where innocent men, women and children were bombed, sniped and burned alive without purpose or meaning. The "free fire zone" orders which encouraged our military to completely destroy Fallujah and its inhabitants is exemplary of the "leadership" of our military in this fiasco called Iraq.

I do hold Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Condi, Powell, and the generals, majors, colonels, captains, sgts., and grunts responsible for the TERRORISM they have created in Iraq. THIS administration and military is responsible for THEIR decisions and actions. Is this the first time the US has intentionally brutalized thousands of innocents? No. But that does nothing to excuse what is HAPPENING TODAY in Iraq.

Personally, I am embarassed and HORRIFIED by what we as a nation are doing abroad today. It is INEXCUSABLE and CRIMINAL and we are as bad as the NAZIS were. And failing to acknowldge that TRUTH makes you ACCOMPLICES.

Originally posted by TheBorg

Originally posted by semperfortis
Why is it when someone is strong enough and dedicated enough to this country and the ideals on which it stands, that you automatically assume they are deceived? Many great statesmen, diplomats and educators are/were former military men. Were they all deceived as well? All of those brave souls were wrong and you right?

Semper

I simply think that there's more to the story that we're not being told. I want to know, since as a citizen of these United States, I have a right to know why things are the way they are. The government shouldn't hide anything from we people that put them there. They have no right to do anything of the kind. War on Terror or not, we're still citizens of this country, and we still have the obligation to know why our government does what it does. I understand National Security and all, but that's long been used and abused as a means to keep secret those things that they don't want the general public to know. That, to me, is the first sign of a government gone awry.

You're right in stating that many politicians are/were at one point in the military. I'm not saying that all of them have been decieved. I simply think that some are either directly involved with the deception, or they're completely ignorant of the situation altogether. People like to live in their own little worlds, where they don't pay attention to the most fundamental of things.

TheBorg

Before I say this Borg, let me assure you that I in NO WAY endorse the repression of the media or free speech as it stands.

My question to you Borg is how much should the public know? After getting to know you, I have no problem with someone like you knowing even sensitive things, yet you are not the norm. Not by a long shot. Should the media be advised of our preemptive attacks so that they can broadcast them prior to our moving on an objective? Of course not you will say, and yet that in and of itself is the repression of information. It is simply a matter of extent.
For the Government to function, there must be secrets. I mean come on! Look at some of the posts on here and tell me you would trust them with military secrets and the lives of our men and women. There really is no way to say something like this and not sound like Hoover, but reading SO's comments about Iran Contra and the assumption that perhaps some of us are lacking in information in that regard, something must be said. I have heard it said that a government operates on it's secrets. While I do not completely subscribe to that foundation, I fully understand the danger of a media that will release the attack date and time for major military operations in order to increase their ratings. (I would gladly vote for Colonel North for President by the way)

There are truths, other truths and the understanding of truth. I still stand by my statement that just because someone obtains information from the news, the web and the library, uses that information to form an opinion and then allows that opinion to fester into a full blown conspiracy theory, does not make them correct in any way.
You are correct in that we do not know everything, we can't. Basic common sense tells us that, we are not responsible and can not be trusted with that information as a whole. That is why you vote, to put people you trust in the position of trust for you. If you begin to distrust them., vote them out.

Those that want to know everything are admirable, but disillusioned. Their "fairy tale" world of complete open and honest discourse to all citizens is a wonderful dream, but only that, a dream. I hate to break it to the rest of ATS, but there are people out there that want to cut your throat on live cam and let the rest of the world watch. And by out there, I mean here in the US. So we stop all government secrets, do away with the NSA, the CIA ETC, what do we have left? The end of life as we know it.

Now before you all get your hackles up, I know you are not talking about the abolishment of all secrets, but who decides which to be released and which not? Any of you? I am personally not comfortable with that!! But who? No matter who you pick, they will release some that make some happy, and not release some that will make others angry. Again, just what is happening now, some are angry, some are not. It is ridiculous to assume that any us posting on here, are capable of making those life and death decisions for an entire country. Even President Bush does not hear about them all, that is why he has advisors and a staff.

Semper

semper:

before I begin, I'd like to apologize for my recent absence. I've been sick these past few days, and have been recuperating. Anyway, that was a good response, and I have a few questions to fire back. So, without further adieu, let's begin...

Originally posted by semperfortis

Before I say this Borg, let me assure you that I in NO WAY endorse the repression of the media or free speech as it stands.

My question to you Borg is how much should the public know? After getting to know you, I have no problem with someone like you knowing even sensitive things, yet you are not the norm. Not by a long shot. Should the media be advised of our preemptive attacks so that they can broadcast them prior to our moving on an objective? Of course not you will say, and yet that in and of itself is the repression of information. It is simply a matter of extent.

Wow, that's a big topic there. To be totally honest, I don't think we should have to know everything that's been decided by our government; just the more pertinent things; those things that affect us and our's directly. When it comes to things like attacks and dates/times, I think that those should be kept secret until they have been completed, and then the specifics should be released into the media.

For the Government to function, there must be secrets. I mean come on! Look at some of the posts on here and tell me you would trust them with military secrets and the lives of our men and women. There really is no way to say something like this and not sound like Hoover, but reading SO's comments about Iran Contra and the assumption that perhaps some of us are lacking in information in that regard, something must be said. I have heard it said that a government operates on it's secrets. While I do not completely subscribe to that foundation, I fully understand the danger of a media that will release the attack date and time for major military operations in order to increase their ratings. (I would gladly vote for Colonel North for President by the way)

And I also understand the danger of the government withholding information that could prevent untold destruction and death, e.g. the Iraqi WMD debate currently raging not only on these forums, but on the mainstream news. It's simply not just to make blanket rules for things that should and should not be released to the public. Who decides if the information is right for the mass' consumption? You got it, the upper levels of the government.

I think the point that should be garnered most from this is that the government is SOLELY responsible for the actions of this country, not We the People, as it should be. We no longer have the say that we need to decide what's just and right for our people to do. Who does the government send off to fight wars? We the People. Do their children go to fight? Nope, not a chance. Why is that? Because they make sure that they don't go, by way of some political means. Now tell me, how fair is it that they can send us to go fight, and yet they themselves generally don't have what it takes to do so?

There are truths, other truths and the understanding of truth. I still stand by my statement that just because someone obtains information from the news, the web and the library, uses that information to form an opinion and then allows that opinion to fester into a full blown conspiracy theory, does not make them correct in any way.
You are correct in that we do not know everything, we can't. Basic common sense tells us that, we are not responsible and can not be trusted with that information as a whole. That is why you vote, to put people you trust in the position of trust for you. If you begin to distrust them., vote them out.

And this I have to partially disagree with. When you get that OP/ED posted, I'll post my thoughts on the voting part there... be prepared for a heated one is all I know. I tend to be adamant about a few things. This is one of them. Just suffice it to say for the time being that I think the voting system is broken, almost to the point of being unrepairable. As for the truth part, I totally agree with that statement; it makes logical sense to think that way, and that's the way everyone should approach everything. It's too bad more people don't.

Those that want to know everything are admirable, but disillusioned. Their "fairy tale" world of complete open and honest discourse to all citizens is a wonderful dream, but only that, a dream. I hate to break it to the rest of ATS, but there are people out there that want to cut your throat on live cam and let the rest of the world watch. And by out there, I mean here in the US. So we stop all government secrets, do away with the NSA, the CIA ETC, what do we have left? The end of life as we know it.

I'm not sure what to make of this honestly. Yes there are people everywhere that dislike someone for some reason, which is yet another reason why this whole War on Terror, hereby known as the War Of Terror, is based on a faulty premise. It can't help but fail, and I feel sorry for the poor soul(s) that's going to have to deal with the fallout in the next presidential term. There's going to be some hellish political backlash from this one, let me assure you.

Oh, you said there are people here in the US that want to cut our throats on live TV. Could you please tell me where they are? better yet, call Homeland Security. I'm sure they'll pay them a visit. Next stop, Gitmo.

Now before you all get your hackles up, I know you are not talking about the abolishment of all secrets, but who decides which to be released and which not? Any of you? I am personally not comfortable with that!! But who? No matter who you pick, they will release some that make some happy, and not release some that will make others angry. Again, just what is happening now, some are angry, some are not. It is ridiculous to assume that any us posting on here, are capable of making those life and death decisions for an entire country. Even President Bush does not hear about them all, that is why he has advisors and a staff.

Semper

Again, I think that there should be a limit on what gets released immediately, and what gets released over time. It's my hope that everything would be released in a timely manner. Take for example the Roswell documents. Why is it that they are still being held secret after 60 years? Is there any logical reason for that aside from Alien Contact? Not only that, why is there a blatant disregard for the public's outcry for information on the Iraqi WMD debacle? It's just now coming to light that the WMD excuse for war was a dud. I understand that some say it wasn't the main reason for going, but if you look at the mass media coverage, it's the only one that got notable airtime. And it's the only one anyone pays any attention to.

Not only that, when questioned with these lies, those that said them lie again to the American People by saying that they didn't say them, when we have them on TAPE saying just what we asked them about. I cease to be amazed at the lunacy I see sometimes. It's genuinely my hope that one day, people will know how much a lie can hurt people. One lie is all it takes to start a nosedive that can't be recovered in any other way than coming completely clean. Maybe those in power will one day. I hope I live to see it.

Again, I apologize for the long post y'all, but this is catchup day for me.

TheBorg

Given some current events, it seems appropriate to revive an old thread...

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
I can feel the slow build of dreaded discovery. A moment of bitter clarity that reveals the shocking maneuverings of unimaginably audacious people who dare to set back a great nation. With ingenious strokes of a powerful pen, a nation falls backward into fear and treachery. An insult to our founding words and the sacrifice of our champions, these deeds will resonate with undeniable loathing throughout history.

White House Staff E-Mail Illegally Deleted



Bush Advisers Use Of Republican National Committee Email Accounts Draws Fire



White House: We screwed up on deleted e-mails



Countless White House E-Mails Deleted

Thanks for reviving this one SO. There's one question that I have right now, Who do you think is ultimately responsible for these misdeeds? Someone must be doing all of these things intentionally, as I seriously doubt that our officials are that inept. The problem for me, and I'm sure it's the same for all of us that are studying this, is that we are so limited in what resources we have at our disposal to piece the puzzle together.

However, to use a famous movie quote, "Investigation is implied in our mandate." - Anakin Skywalker, Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

So now other questions arise. What's the next move? Do we dig deeper to find out the truth about who's behind these actions? And if we do find out, would anyone really want to know? Would it do the world any good to know? How would the world handle the realization? Would they act to stop it, or would they just go about their normal lives, as if nothing had happened?

TheBorg

[Edited for content/clarity.]

[edit on 13-4-2007 by TheBorg]

My company has a permanent retention policy. That means that everything is stored on backup tapes. We incur a huge bill for offsite storage, but we have to do it because it's the law. If we failed to produce tapes from even one day, we would have to pay HUGE fines, and possible jail time. Why aren't the people responsible for this placed under the same standards?

This is a great thread. I'm glad (but sad and sickened) to see it here again.

Key to "Lost" Emails is "who"

"Lost" is not what happens to White House information when someone "screwed up." "Lost" is what happens when the orders of someone with power are carried out successfully, when the plan of someone with power is followed. And when the information is "lost," that person with power does not say to him- or herself,"Oh, no. I screwed up." That person with power says, "Good job. Thanks for taking care of that."

I'm more disillusioned than I can say about this because I'm just sure that no one will pay for blatantly breaking the law and being above reproach.

Again.

More and more the corruption in our government is starting to show up for the American people to make their judgment.

But sadly this is not limited to one side, but all sides of the political arena.

Never trust any politician or any given administration, government was mean to be transparent for the people, not secretive.

When governments become secretive it means corruption.

Originally posted by jsobecky
My dreams are not shattered. My faith in the present and the future of our country is not filled with fear, and I have never been accused of being apathetic.

I have great confidence in the strength of the American people and the spirit that made this country great. We are living in trying times, and these are made more dificult as much because of the complacency of the past as thee deeds of the present. We have never been tested as a nation as we are today; our nation had become weak while we fooled ourselves by thinking we were invincible.

The way that we handle the adversity - with feelings or with actions, will determine our future. I will continue to be on the front line.

Very well said. jsobecky; I couldn't agree with you more. The only way our precious freedoms will be taken from us is if we allow them to be taken. I for one am not going to give up on those dreams that SO was speaking of and I am confident that the citizens of this country will not sit idly by while their freedoms are stripped away.

It's good that you want to stop such a thing from coming about. The only problem is that it's almost here, we're just now catching up. We're so behind on the REAL history of this country that those in true control aren't really worried that we'll ever be able to catch them at anything. And even if we did, they have their hands so firmly entrenched in everything that nothing would come of the ensuing trials.

What we need is mass education, something that makes everyone, and I mean everyone think about what's truly happening. The simplest way is to show them a way that it affects them individually, such as their pocketbook. Money is the driving force of this country now, not the freedoms we used to so espouse. It's time for a paradigm shift again, back to an old understanding, one that actually worked.

TheBorg

Thank you for bumping this thread Skeptic, great OP, great thinking.

I read all the way to page 4 before I noticed it was an old thread getting bumped. Which in no way is a discredit, it swallowed me up immediately, and as it was from before my time it was all new and fresh to me. And the subject of the discussion is forever young.

No written deal is any better than the brains trying to circumvent it. Be the brains who created it the brightest minds of'm all, its weekness will be in the moral high ground the drafters are standing upon. Something like it takes a thief to think like a thief.

I don't know how much there is to the story of Dubaya calling the Constitution "just a piece of paper", but he do like to joke with law ("international law! I better call my lawyers"). Something there must be, openly expressing himself in such a demeaning manner.

When you have smart lawyers and strategists, masters of spin, and same time in reallity controlls the two of the three powers through an office getting more and more open to redefining itself through executuve orders and interpretations of the commander-in-chief role, any deal is bound to go down. No principles can stand further than the morality of those left to uphold them. Like Marg said, "corrupt".

Question is if any principle can stand the change of time and morals and concepts. That's why you have the amendment system, I know. And most countries' constitutions are rewritten through time, like ones in a century. But some places they can write constitutions every 5 or 10 years, but they never get it right anyhow.

Think about that! Where I stay they are writing on the 18th constitution in 75 years, and should they come to write a 100, they'll never get it right anyway, cause you can't write a constitution against corruption.