H.R. 4752: Universal National Service Act of 2006

Originally posted by pawnplayer

Perpetual war for perpetual peace. D'oh, the human race has been like that for centuries. What you're saying is nothing new to me.

You think every country should oblige to share resources with other countries for free or super-low prices?

I'm still waiting for my .10 per gallon for gas from Iran, my case of Bordeaux wines and fine cheese from France for free, my package of fine Belgian dark chocolate for $1 and a Japanese Honda Accord for only $100.

I would rather serve and fight for my country for the sake of economic survival and to avoid being subjected to political blackmailing by other countries with valuable resources crucial to our country's economic and political survival. What you are against, sir, is our country's economic survival.

You wanted the USA to be punished for being a powerful, productive and prosperous country for years?

Dude, first off take a pill. Second, I never said anything about countries being obliged to share resources for "super low prices". The point is that we all have to live on this rock together. We claim to have the political, moral, social-economic highground here in the US, but we hardly have the track record to prove it. Maybe if we haven't spent the last 60+ years screwing with other governments and thoroughly pissing off the rest of the world then perhaps we wouldn't be "politically blackmailed" as you say we are. What the hell do you think we do to other countries who dont bow to our every whim??? There are enough resources to go around for EVERYONE on this planet, but we are so damned selfish here we seem to have to hog them all for ourselves.

BTW, what exactly do we (USA) offer the rest of the world? War and entertainment. Dont get me wrong, I love this country and what it used to stand for, I just hate the people in charge, ALL of them.

You sit here and advocate basically the murder of people in other countries so we can "avoid being subjected to political blackmailing by other countries with valuable resources crucial to our country's economic and political survival."

What you are advocating, sir, is morally and ethically wrong on more levels than I can describe.

Originally posted by niteboy82
You know what, I'm 23 years old, and when you show me this "higher cause" and I find it to be a "higher cause" for this country, I'll be the first to take on the gun (though I will be dead, because I refuse to kill anyone). Darwinism at its finest? Oh well.

At least Muslims are far more dedicated and passionate to a higher cause than any of us here.

Originally posted by niteboy82
This country has lost whatever higher cause there was. Left wing, right wing... doesn't matter, both wings are broken, and this bird isn't flying.

I don't care about left-wing, right-wing craps. All I care about is survival of my family, my friends, my community, my faith and my country.

Do you?

At least Muslims are far more dedicated and passionate to a higher cause than any of us here.

I would like to know what higher cause this is exactly? Don't tell me survival of our country, because I don't believe that the Iraqi/Iranian war is truly an issue that needs to be addressed militarily. Maybe the Muslims are more dedicated and passionate because we are unnecessarily invading their land???

I don't care about left-wing, right-wing craps. All I care about is survival of my family, my friends, my community, my faith and my country. Do you?

Answer my first question, and I will have an easier time answering your first one... I will say this: your faith? What about my faith, which is none (athiest)?

Originally posted by LogansRun
Dude, first off take a pill. Second, I never said anything about countries being obliged to share resources for "super low prices". The point is that we all have to live on this rock together. We claim to have the political, moral, social-economic highground here in the US, but we hardly have the track record to prove it. Maybe if we haven't spent the last 60+ years screwing with other governments and thoroughly pissing off the rest of the world then perhaps we wouldn't be "politically blackmailed" as you say we are. What the hell do you think we do to other countries who dont bow to our every whim??? There are enough resources to go around for EVERYONE on this planet, but we are so damned selfish here we seem to have to hog them all for ourselves.

Too bad, either you can be screwed by others or you can screw others. For once, I've never sincerely believe in good intentions from other countries toward the USA. NEVER. It's a farce. When it comes to resources they have, I don't trust the controllers of those resources on political and economic levels - all they demanded are this and that, this and that, this and that. Do you think the United States enjoyed being screwed by other countries on trade issues in the past? No. Read up how China tried to dump too much apparels in the USA which would have drive down the prices and degrade the demand-supply set-up we have with China and other countries for years.

Originally posted by LogansRun
BTW, what exactly do we (USA) offer the rest of the world? War and entertainment. Dont get me wrong, I love this country and what it used to stand for, I just hate the people in charge, ALL of them.

On the first question and your own answer, that's utterly BS. Typical short-sighted BS. The people in charge aren't the problems, it's the system. The whole system we set up to make it work for all of us, including those people in charge. It's not perfect and things always goes horribly wrong, what's the alternative? It's the same system that is founded in every country in the world and people just went along with it because it is there for them.

Put yourself in charge and see how people feel about you.

Originally posted by LogansRun
You sit here and advocate basically the murder of people in other countries so we can "avoid being subjected to political blackmailing by other countries with valuable resources crucial to our country's economic and political survival."

What you are advocating, sir, is morally and ethically wrong on more levels than I can describe.

Aw, that's too bad. Cry me a river. I don't advocate murder but I DO advocate a willingness to survive and that means by any mean necessary. Human history have shown me plenty of reasons that survival matters above all - especially important for my family, friends, my community, my faith and my country, right and wrong.

You think other countries would goes easy and be nice with the USA on every issue? You could be really that naive if you believe in that!

Originally posted by pawnplayer

You think other countries would goes easy and be nice with the USA on every issue?

You could be really that naive if you believe in that!

What is it with people like you that feel that everyone should bow to the USA? Do you not realize that for a population, we are truly nothing, and that we are big bullies? How do you miss this? I really don't understand people like you, but then again, I have a feeling that the only people that do are people that are like you. I bear no ill will against you, I just don't agree with you.

Originally posted by niteboy82

At least Muslims are far more dedicated and passionate to a higher cause than any of us here.

I would like to know what higher cause this is exactly? Don't tell me survival of our country, because I don't believe that the Iraqi/Iranian war is truly an issue that needs to be addressed militarily. Maybe the Muslims are more dedicated and passionate because we are unnecessarily invading their land???

Wow, you are THAT clueless. Sorry, but invading Iraq have very little to do with inflaming the dedication and passion of the Muslims worldwide, other than those who have already been stridently anti-American for YEARS. Actually many Muslims cheered for the invasion and the end of Saddam Hussein, they were so glad to see him gone from power and the resurgence of Shia/Sunni religions under Islam proliferated after the invasion. That's an unfortunate side effect of the invasion - but it is better than no religions in Iraq.

If you could take the time to study the history of the Middle East, you would be surprised that many, many, many times Muslims have attempted to invade or have invaded non-Muslim countries, kingdoms and regions by conquest throughout the history across three continents (Europe, Africa and Asia) for the sake of Islam. Although it was for different circumstances under different eras than today.

The higher cause for Muslims, I'm referring to, is a world under Islam. No liberal or secular democracy, no other religion allowed (many Muslims generally referred Islam as the "one true religion"), no modern/Western ways of life and women are required to wear complete/partial veiling, with their own rights reduced to patronized decrees and everyone is required to read and learn the Qu'ran from birth. This is how Muslims worldwide envisioned in the future - for a higher cause they can aspire to readily and willing.

Originally posted by niteboy82Answer my first question, and I will have an easier time answering your first one... I will say this: your faith? What about my faith, which is none (athiest)?

It's not my say or decision that you cannot be an atheist. That's your own personal choice and beliefs that you are privileged under the First Amendment, assuming you're an American.

Originally posted by pawnplayer
Actually many Muslims cheered for the invasion and the end of Saddam Hussein, they were so glad to see him gone from power and the resurgence of Shia/Sunni religions under Islam proliferated after the invasion. That's an unfortunate side effect of the invasion - but it is better than no religions in Iraq.

Oh, yes, I forget that we were greeted with flowers and candy! How ignorant of me!!! Darnit!

If you could take the time to study the history of the Middle East, you would be surprised that many, many, many times Muslims have attempted to invade or have invaded non-Muslim countries, kingdoms and regions by conquest throughout the history across three continents (Europe, Africa and Asia) for the sake of Islam. Although it was for different circumstances under different eras than today.

So you bring up the point that I need to study the history of Muslim Nations, and then in the last sentence tell me that it is irrelevant because it's different now.

It's not my say or decision that you cannot be an atheist. That's your own personal choice and beliefs that you are privileged under the First Amendment, assuming you're an American.

You brought up your faith, your family, and I don't remember what else to defend why we should do this, now you say that it's my right to be an athiest. So I assume that it's my right to call myself an athiest, but it doesn't really matter, because I should fight to defend your faith, family, and only your god knows what else??

Was I supposed to be enlightened? I must have missed it...


*Edit- Spelling Error*

[edit on 5/18/06 by niteboy82]

Originally posted by niteboy82

Originally posted by pawnplayer

You think other countries would goes easy and be nice with the USA on every issue?

You could be really that naive if you believe in that!

What is it with people like you that feel that everyone should bow to the USA? Do you not realize that for a population, we are truly nothing, and that we are big bullies? How do you miss this? I really don't understand people like you, but then again, I have a feeling that the only people that do are people that are like you. I bear no ill will against you, I just don't agree with you.

That's fine. I don't care. I don't wanted my country to bow down to other countries. We have several times in the past (on trade/economic issues - very complicated, very lengthy to discuss here). We are already bowing down to the EU's diplomatic suggestions toward Iran since 2004! WTF?!

I don't agree with your thinking and your naivete, either. The world isn't all rose-colored and wonderful as you think it is.

Originally posted by pawnplayer

Too bad, either you can be screwed by others or you can screw others. For once, I've never sincerely believe in good intentions from other countries toward the USA. NEVER. It's a farce.

Um, what exactly is your "faith"? Either you can be screwed by others or you can screw others??? What exactly do you worship dude?

Originally posted by pawnplayer
On the first question and your own answer, that's utterly BS. Typical short-sighted BS. The people in charge aren't the problems, it's the system. The whole system we set up to make it work for all of us, including those people in charge. It's not perfect and things always goes horribly wrong, what's the alternative? It's the same system that is founded in every country in the world and people just went along with it because it is there for them.

Ok, I will agree with you on one thing - that the system IS screwed up. It is screwed becuase it is "set up" to work for the ruling elite. If you think this administration or our leaders give one crap about the average american, then it is you who is truly short sighted. You mention your faith quite often, do you honestly think these people in charge are truly men of faith? - only if their god is money....

Originally posted by pawnplayer
Aw, that's too bad. Cry me a river. I don't advocate murder but I DO advocate a willingness to survive and that means by any mean necessary. Human history have shown me plenty of reasons that survival matters above all - especially important for my family, friends, my community, my faith and my country, right and wrong.

You think other countries would goes easy and be nice with the USA on every issue?

You could be really that naive if you believe in that!

Dude, we are all human beings here on this planet. Your "faith" isn't limited to just this country. To think it is, makes you ignorant beyond words. I have a feeling that your "faith" is rooted in Christianity - please correct me if I am wrong. The level of disrespect you show for your fellow man (non american and anyone who disagrees with you) shows your true colors. You are no more a man of faith than the people who run this country. To claim you are defending your home and faith by attacking other countries defeats any message that your "faith" is associated with. And people wonder why the rest of the world is pissed at us.

Most people on this planet want one thing and one thing alone: to live their lives to the fullest, to be happy, freely worship what they want, and to be left the hell alone. Why do you think that they only are out to get you? What a sad point of view......

Originally posted by niteboy82

If you could take the time to study the history of the Middle East, you would be surprised that many, many, many times Muslims have attempted to invade or have invaded non-Muslim countries, kingdoms and regions by conquest throughout the history across three continents (Europe, Africa and Asia) for the sake of Islam. Although it was for different circumstances under different eras than today.

So you bring up the point that I need to study the history of Muslim Nations, and then in the last sentence tell me that it is irrelevant because it's different now.

It is relevant. What I mean different circumstances are political, social and economic reasons and conditions in those different time perioids - in a sense they are all relevant to each other historically but the players and conditions were always different.

It's not my say or decision that you cannot be an atheist. That's your own personal choice and beliefs that you are privileged under the First Amendment, assuming you're an American.

Originally posted by niteboy82
You brought up your faith, your family, and I don't remember what else to defend why we should do this, now you say that it's my right to be an athiest. So I assume that it's my right to call myself an athiest, but it doesn't really matter, because I should fight to defend your faith, family, and only your god knows what else??

Was I supposed to be enlightened? I must have missed it...

I realize you're a young man. People tend to look out for each other should such needs arise. That's why it's called a community, at least on a local level. I have good friends and relatives I can look out for, they have families, too. If people don't look for each other, then we lose "faith" in a community and in ourselves.

Do you believe in all global community or global village stuff?

Originally posted by LogansRun
Ok, I will agree with you on one thing - that the system IS screwed up. It is screwed becuase it is "set up" to work for the ruling elite. If you think this administration or our leaders give one crap about the average american, then it is you who is truly short sighted. You mention your faith quite often, do you honestly think these people in charge are truly men of faith? - only if their god is money....

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Originally posted by LogansRun
Dude, we are all human beings here on this planet. Your "faith" isn't limited to just this country. To think it is, makes you ignorant beyond words. I have a feeling that your "faith" is rooted in Christianity - please correct me if I am wrong. The level of disrespect you show for your fellow man (non american and anyone who disagrees with you) shows your true colors. You are no more a man of faith than the people who run this country. To claim you are defending your home and faith by attacking other countries defeats any message that your "faith" is associated with. And people wonder why the rest of the world is pissed at us.

That is the attitude I most despise from you. Yes, I have shown my true colors and I'm not ashamed of it, bud. If you aren't fighting for this country and for your community, then you are not worth fighting for. Go back to your big vaunted global village, bud.

Originally posted by LogansRun
Most people on this planet want one thing and one thing alone: to live their lives to the fullest, to be happy, freely worship what they want, and to be left the hell alone. Why do you think that they only are out to get you? What a sad point of view......

Wow, you are really that NAIVE. Is that rose-colored glasses you're wearing when you typed that post?

Originally posted by pawnplayer
I realize you're a young man. People tend to look out for each other should such needs arise. That's why it's called a community, at least on a local level. I have good friends and relatives I can look out for, they have families, too. If people don't look for each other, then we lose "faith" in a community and in ourselves.
Do you believe in all global community or global village stuff?

Ok, so faith in a global community is far different from what it seemed you stated. Either way, we're still at a stalemate because of the fact that every other point you brought up I have in some way or another disagreed with you.

Honestly though, I am enjoying this debate with you, and I do appreciate the fact that neither of us have been rude to each other. I wish that this was the general standard for all debates on this forum, and I thank you, Pawn.

Originally posted by pawnplayer

If you could take the time to study the history of the Middle East, you would be surprised that many, many, many times Muslims have attempted to invade or have invaded non-Muslim countries, kingdoms and regions by conquest throughout the history across three continents (Europe, Africa and Asia) for the sake of Islam. Although it was for different circumstances under different eras than today.

If you could take the time to study WORLD history, you might learn a thing or two about the crusades, or the spanish inquisition, the German reformation, the scandinavian reformation, the 1st christian war (1524-1525), the 2nd christian war (1546-1555), the 3rd christian war (1529-1531) - the reformation in switzerland, the 4th (1562-1598) - reformation in France, the reformation in France, reformation in England, reformation in Scotland..................I could go on and on. ALL of these were christians killing non christians (and other christians, ironically) in the "name of God". So what exactly is your point of singling out the history of the Middle East? Human history is bloody on all sides - we as Americans are doing our damndest to keep it that way...........

Originally posted by LogansRun

If you could take the time to study WORLD history, you might learn a thing or two about the crusades, or the spanish inquisition, the German reformation, the scandinavian reformation, the 1st christian war (1524-1525), the 2nd christian war (1546-1555), the 3rd christian war (1529-1531) - the reformation in switzerland, the 4th (1562-1598) - reformation in France, the reformation in France, reformation in England, reformation in Scotland..................I could go on and on. ALL of these were christians killing non christians (and other christians, ironically) in the "name of God". So what exactly is your point of singling out the history of the Middle East? Human history is bloody on all sides - we as Americans are doing our damndest to keep it that way...........

Can I get an AMEN?

Seriously though, I do feel as though this argument is quite weak (PawnPlayer's). I pulled in my landlord, who holds a doctorate in European History, and he chuckled. Still a professor after 35 years, I hold that for something.

*Edit - Made more specific whose argument I was referring to. Sorry, I'm in the middle of cooking dinner! *

[edit on 5/18/06 by niteboy82]

Originally posted by niteboy82
Ok, so faith in a global community is far different from what it seemed you stated. Either way, we're still at a stalemate because of the fact that every other point you brought up I have in some way or another disagreed with you.

Honestly though, I am enjoying this debate with you, and I do appreciate the fact that neither of us have been rude to each other. I wish that this was the general standard for all debates on this forum, and I thank you, Pawn.

Niteboy, I have very, very different views on everything, even views that many others would feel really uncomfortable, because of that, I have to be blunt and truthfully.

I don't believe in global village, "we-are-the-world" baloney. I don't wanted to get along with everybody in the world, just the people closest to me. That's matter the most to me. If the community/country needed to do what they would have to take to survive, they have to rely and have faith in each other.

Globalization sucks. In order to defend my community and my country, I have to be a player, not a pawn to some global community supporters thousands miles away.

Originally posted by pawnplayer

That is the attitude I most despise from you. Yes, I have shown my true colors and I'm not ashamed of it, bud. If you aren't fighting for this country and for your community, then you are not worth fighting for. Go back to your big vaunted global village, bud.

Ok...........so let me get this straight......American christian that agrees with you, good. Anything else, bad?

Originally posted by pawnplayer
Wow, you are really that NAIVE. Is that rose-colored glasses you're wearing when you typed that post?

The aware for being naive is your honor alone my friend. I am not wearing rose colored glasses, I merely speak the truth. How many people do you personally know from other countries? I happen to be quite well informed with many people in this global community. And YES we are a global village. You forget that EVERY person living here in the states (with the exception of native americans) have their history in one of those "other countries" that are out to "destroy us". I really am not going to waste my time debating you any more as I have far more productive things to do like advocating a global community and doing as much as possible to enlighten peolple with your point of view. I hope for your sake, and the sake of those around you, that you educate yourself and become more of a positive person as living amongst 5% of the population (US) and thinking ther other 95% (rest of world) wants you dead must be a very sad life. Good luck to you.

Originally posted by LogansRun
If you could take the time to study WORLD history, you might learn a thing or two about the crusades, or the spanish inquisition, the German reformation, the scandinavian reformation, the 1st christian war (1524-1525), the 2nd christian war (1546-1555), the 3rd christian war (1529-1531) - the reformation in switzerland, the 4th (1562-1598) - reformation in France, the reformation in France, reformation in England, reformation in Scotland..................I could go on and on. ALL of these were christians killing non christians (and other christians, ironically) in the "name of God". So what exactly is your point of singling out the history of the Middle East? Human history is bloody on all sides - we as Americans are doing our damndest to keep it that way...........

That's exactly my point. The only reason I picked out the Middle East was to respond to niteboy's inquiry about a higher cause for Muslims. The higher cause I suggested is a world under Islam and there are many Muslims who are willing to do whatever it takes to accomplish that, that's why they are far more dedicated and passionate to THAT higher cause than any of us can do for freedom.

I, for one, do not wanted a world under "one true religion" with our heads bowed down facing Mecca.

Originally posted by pawnplayer

I, for one, do not wanted a world under "one true religion" with our heads bowed down facing Mecca.

Nor do I my friend, believe me. Nor do I want to be forced to bow down to a cross - which history has shown many people attempt to make this happen.

Originally posted by LogansRun

Originally posted by pawnplayer

That is the attitude I most despise from you. Yes, I have shown my true colors and I'm not ashamed of it, bud. If you aren't fighting for this country and for your community, then you are not worth fighting for. Go back to your big vaunted global village, bud.

Ok...........so let me get this straight......American christian that agrees with you, good. Anything else, bad?

You know what's your problem? You keep assuming and assuming. Bad habit you have?

Originally posted by LogansRunThe aware for being naive is your honor alone my friend. I am not wearing rose colored glasses, I merely speak the truth. How many people do you personally know from other countries? I happen to be quite well informed with many people in this global community. And YES we are a global village. You forget that EVERY person living here in the states (with the exception of native americans) have their history in one of those "other countries" that are out to "destroy us". I really am not going to waste my time debating you any more as I have far more productive things to do like advocating a global community and doing as much as possible to enlighten peolple with your point of view. I hope for your sake, and the sake of those around you, that you educate yourself and become more of a positive person as living amongst 5% of the population (US) and thinking ther other 95% (rest of world) wants you dead must be a very sad life. Good luck to you.

Assuming, assuming, assuming.... stupid bad habit you have already, you know?

Global community sucks Local community rules. I hope for your sake, you will wake up someday what a really big scam all global village really is.

Originally posted by LogansRun

Originally posted by pawnplayer

I, for one, do not wanted a world under "one true religion" with our heads bowed down facing Mecca.

Nor do I my friend, believe me. Nor do I want to be forced to bow down to a cross - which history has shown many people attempt to make this happen.

Yes, that was a big mistake for Christianity in general in the past, but you have to remember a lot of politics and economic factors played the Christian sides in order to gain some strategic advantages. Even Christians fought against other Christians on difficult theological and political grounds.

You should not be forced to bow down before a cross or a crescent. You should follow your own spiritual matters on your own terms.