What do you think is the REAL reason for Australias involvment in the War on Terror?

As an Aussie, I am interested to get the opinions of the rest of the world as to why Australia is always so quick to jump into any conflict that America asks it to?
Is it a justification for having a military or a real attempt at destroying terrorism.
We have the largest Muslim country a stones throw from us in Indonesia and sometimes there are tensions there (especially during the East Timor issue a few years back).
As our Prime Minister is visiting the U.S. at the moment I am interested in the forums views.
Basically I just hope the world doesn't think we are just a big "Suck Up"

[edit on 15-5-2006 by ADVISOR]

Honestly, I believe its John Howards mental issues dating back to primary and highschool when he had no friends and was a loner.

He's now being invited to the whitehouse,
invited to secretary rummsfields residence and to have dinner with chenney.

His name is being echoed around the oval office..

He was as giddy as a school girl in the weeks leading up to the invasion. Just checkout some photo shoots.

He's grinning from ear to ear and basically hagning on every word bush says.
I dont know wether little johnny actually THOUGHT it through, or just took everything word for word the way the US president wanted it to sound.

I mean honestly,

what evidence did Johnny, Aussie and ASIO have to backup the US claims, and dubb it concrete enough to follow them into IRAQ.

More than likely, bush told johnny the same rhetoric CRAP he gave the rest of the world, and johnny accepted it as gospel.

Possibly "Small Man Syndrome"
The whole Iraq thing is pretty unpopular back home for him so I don't know what hold the Coalition of the Willing thing has over deploying Australian troops.
It will be interesting to see if there is a conflict over Iraq what will happen then. Are we heading for the WMD scenario or something else as a justification?
It appears to me, IMO, that the Indonesians especially are seeing this as a form of Crusade against Muslim states and this should send danger signals to us here in Australia as we are a LONG way away from support AND our troops are on the other side of the world - Iraq/Afghanistan.

[edit on 15-5-2006 by ADVISOR]

Or maybe it is in Australias best interest to support an ally during war time?

Think about this - 10 years down the track, religious extremists go nuts in Indonesia / Malaysia and start threatening Australia.

Australia turns to America and says "Hey we helped you out back in Iraq Afghanistan, now were calling in that favor!"

Frankly I think JH did the right thing by Australians by supporting the US. I dont feel sorry for the Defense force personell that are serving there because thats what they should expect when joining the defense force.

Of course it goes without saying that I have nothing but the utmost respect for them for defending our country and our ideals.

Originally posted by Slaine01
Possibly "Small Man Syndrome"

The whole Iraq thing is pretty unpopular back home for him so I don't know what hold the Coalition of the Willing thing has over deploying Australian troops.
It will be interesting to see if there is a conflict over Iraq what will happen then. Are we heading for the WMD scenario or something else as a justification?
It appears to me, IMO, that the Indonesians especially are seeing this as a form of Crusade against Muslim states and this should send danger signals to us here in Australia as we are a LONG way away from support AND our troops are on the other side of the world - Iraq/Afghanistan.

Interesting thread

Hmmm, i will think about this some, but at the initial moment of reading this i must ask.
"would u want to be on unfriendly terms with the US?"
I know that might come across as abit wrong but as we know the US is powerfull and the man that is in charge of all this power fits something into the concept of a child playing with his fathers gun, if u will permit me to speak freely.
I dont know though i will give this some thought , once again.
Nice thread

Omega

Oh, and live training, hands on sort of stuff. Those Aussies are always diggin in ways to one up the SAS and Yank outfits. Setting their kit up so it's even more low drag, the usual.

Good training, I said that..hmm. They get to add the history to Aussie unit experience. They believe in the war "against" terrorists. Eh, some downunda can oh whoop arse is nice now and then. You can't honestly expect them to sit down there, on the bottom of this planet, while the biggest military event since Nam happens, can you?

Any one who is any one, wants to be in on the action. Rome didn't build an empire, just to sit around the colosseum.

How is that, close or no cigar?

I think that post 9/11 one of the main reasons Australia is so quick to deploy forces is because of Pine Gap.

You have to reward the country that essentially gives us an 'insurance policy' against invasion.

Also U.S. bases in Guam are a nice back-up.

Personally I think that the U.S. would be happy to support our boys here in Australia if there was a conflict with Indonesia.
A) Because of global stability.
and (more importantly)
B) Bondi Beach in Sydney has the best Topless sunbathing in the world


[edit on 15-5-2006 by ADVISOR]

Hmm some good responses except for a couple of morons at the beginning.

One of my best friends has recently joined the Army after leaving a very high paying job at Mcquarie Bank, he's 30. He joined because he believes what we are doing is right. I also believe what we are doing is right. NOw he isn't some know nothing never been out the country commentator. He's been to the middle east, backpacked through it - he has been able to make an informed judgement about the way the world there is.
JH is a very smart man, who can see teh bigger picture. One of the recent trade offs we've had is a Free Trade AGreement with the US, which has been and will continue to be a boost to the Australian economy.
I can't think of any other country in the world ( maybe Canada) which shares such a similiar culture with America as Australia does.

There are several reasons for Australian troops in Iraq/Afghanistan. To list a few:

1. Repayment for US assistance in WWII

2. For assistance in future pacific wars (if they happen). Possibly with Indonesia, China or North Korea.

3. Because the USA is a genuine ally and big brother to Australia.

4. Because the Australian people don't stand for terrorism and oppression.

If the Indonesians tried to attack Australia USAF air support would be a crucial factor is propelling the enemy.

As for the comment about John Howard's high school years - completley stupid and false. This country NEEDS the support of the USA to deter and possibly defend against our neighbours to the north. John Howard has done the right thing by sticking with the USA for the interests of Australia.

The USA also has Nuclear missile silo's in Australia so don't you think having them so close means you need to keep good relations?

Besides, no Australian troops have died in The War on Terror so far (even though we are fighing in some pretty tough area's alongside US delta force and Marine units) - except the SAS troop who offed himself 'cleaning his gun'. So it's good experience for our boys and strengthens our relations with the USA.

It has nothing to do personally with Prime Minister Howard.

And besides - who here would honestly rather have voted for the Labour part now?

"This just in - Prime Minister Latham has just cut off all ties with the USA".

Minutes later Mr Latham had a mental breakdown and ran away. He then broke a camera at a Hungry Jacks restaurant. (That actually happened lol!)

My 2 cents (AKA 1244 characters)

America is a powerful country and has maintained relations with various nations to keep them in "sock puppet" status to a greater or lesser extent. It interferes, clandestinely, to destabilise the left wing in many countries and the UK and Australia are no exception.

For example, Gough Whitlam's government was proving less than compliant, so he had to go. The US funded opposition parties and using its extensive media contacts and eavesdropping technology, stirred up quite a few scandals in Whitlam's cabinet. One of the reasons for getting rid of him, by the way, was that the lease on Pine Gap was up for review and the indications were he wanted the US listening station out of the country. The CIA were very perturbed about this and ASIO, who have extensive ties with them, were too.

At any rate, GW got hold of a list of opposition MPs who were being 'run' by the US and committed a grievous tactical error. He went into Parliament on a Friday afternoon and said that on the following Monday he would reveal who these MPs were and how much they'd been paid. Oops. Should have gone with it then and there, mate.

Over the weekend, the Governor-General, who was a British appointee of Her Maj, using one of those arcane powers nobody remembers until it's used, removed GW. It turns out that the GG (whose name I forget, sorry) was something of a creature of the CIA, who published his books through front agencies and arranged lecture tours for him. Result: a coup d'etat arranged by the CIA.

This is all detailed in a wonderful book called The Crimes of Patriots by ex-Wall Street Journal writer Jonathan Kwitney. The meat of the book is about the Nugan Hand Bank, which allowed the CIA to launder Far Eastern (mainly Thai-sourced) drug money and was also the front for an investment scam ripping off US servicemen. Kwitney demonstrates a thoroughly corrupt web of intrigue: the Australian partner of the bank committed suicide, while the US/CIA guy (who I think, from memory, was called Frank Hand) disappeared with a chunk of cash.

On an interesting side note, I worked with a guy who had been in Aussie Army Intelligence. He really wasn't keen on the Americans, which arose from when he'd had to work with them on joint training exercises and they'd lived up to their stereotype of being gung-ho and trigger-happy. He told me one interesting fact: installations, like Pine Gap (and I would think Menwith Hill in the UK, although this is extrapolation) which contain extremely sensitive equipment, have nukes pointed at them 24/7. If those installations fall into the 'wrong hands', however defined, they will be taken out without a thought.

So it turns out that one of the hidden benefits of being an ally of the US is that you have nukes pointed at you. How cool is that? (*sarcasm*)

On an interesting side note, I worked with a guy who had been in Aussie Army Intelligence. He really wasn't keen on the Americans, which arose from when he'd had to work with them on joint training exercises and they'd lived up to their stereotype of being gung-ho and trigger-happy. He told me one interesting fact: installations, like Pine Gap (and I would think Menwith Hill in the UK, although this is extrapolation) which contain extremely sensitive equipment, have nukes pointed at them 24/7. If those installations fall into the 'wrong hands', however defined, they will be taken out without a thought.

Do you really think that they 'if' that were the case they would tell people like your friend who obviously isnt very good at keeping secrets?

There would be a HUGE public outcry in Aus if anyone really thought that was the case!

G'day all,

Great topic - love it! I reckon Shane McBain has hit it on the head with the bit about the US have nuclear missile silo's here in Australia - no-one knew about Pine Gap being built other than two or three ministers in parliament so whats to say anyone else know about the missile silo's? True this is speculation but it wouldn't surprise me and I would be all for it.

Australia was, don't forget on of the leading nations in nuclear technology and our scientists were regarded as one of the best until the Federal Government took the no-nuclear route back in the early seventies. I did hear somewhere, possibly 60mins, that the main reason Australia has the "scientific" reactor at Lucas Heights is so that we maintain nuclear know-how in the unforseen circumstance that Indonesia goes nuclear, we would have an extremely efficient deterent within a short amount of time(and also, have you heard about them building a larger replacement reactor to the current one?).

As for the Ozzies supporting the US, I think that the US would have been buggered in Afghanistan if it wasn't for our SAS getting in deep behind enemy lines and pin-pointing bombing drops on the Taliban (and even with the exact co-ordinates the Yanks still managed to stuff up some bombing runs).

I would not be surprised as the stories Ive heard that the US has special forces already inside Iran for a year now, training the rebel forces there, if they were actually Aussie SAS.

Now a predicament that Australia could find itself in in the near future would be in regards to us selling our Uranium to China! Big mistake strategically! Hows this for a possible scenario -

"Australia sells huge quantities of Uranium to China, makes heaps of money in the process. China invades Taiwan and threatens Japan, South Korea and USA if they get involved. USA pushes Australia to sanction China by halting all exports of Uranium. Australia complies. China threatens to take Australias Uranium by force if sanctions are not withdrawn. Australia calls its bluff and sticks to it's guns, thus pleasing the US. China retaliates by launching it's armed forces towards Australia
in a VERY BIG WAY, followed by tankers and ships of miners and workers. "

What happens now? Will the USA come in to protect Australia's sovereignty and it's own interests there? Or will it sacrifice our partnership because it's forces are so stretched all over the globe? Dont forget that this sort of action would require almost all the USA armed forces to repel the Chinese and possibly NATO aswell.

Or does Australia, withdraw it's sanctions and please China and it's future earnings potential and shaft the USA?

Tricky predicament that could very well eventuate!

Just quickly, with Irans Ahmadinejad visiting Indonesia recently and also stating he will withdraw from the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, doesn't that sound like to you that he is planing on arming the Indonesian with nuclear know how, thus threatening Australia in 10 years time?

C'mon Aussie c'mon c'mon.......

Melbourne_Militia

Originally posted by Melbourne_Militia
G'day all,

Great topic - love it! I reckon Shane McBain has hit it on the head with the bit about the US have nuclear missile silo's here in Australia - no-one knew about Pine Gap being built other than two or three ministers in parliament so whats to say anyone else know about the missile silo's? True this is speculation but it wouldn't surprise me and I would be all for it.

Erm, why would we have silos here ? The US can hit any point in the world from CONUS, not to mention their submarines.

I did hear somewhere, possibly 60mins, that the main reason Australia has the "scientific" reactor at Lucas Heights is so that we maintain nuclear know-how in the unforseen circumstance that Indonesia goes nuclear, we would have an extremely efficient deterent within a short amount of time(and also, have you heard about them building a larger replacement reactor to the current one?).

Lucas Heights is primarily used for making radioactive isotopes for medicine and science. It is tiny and isn't capable of producing any weaons grade material. The new one is only slightly bigger and cannot be used to make nuclear weapons.

The main reason we didn't build nuclear weapons was because the US vetoed the idea, due to the infiltration of the KGB in Australia. The British wanted to give us the bomb, hence why we allowed the nuclear testing here. ANU ( which I attended ) was set up by an act of talent specifically to pool Australia's talent to start a nuclear program.

As for the Ozzies supporting the US, I think that the US would have been buggered in Afghanistan if it wasn't for our SAS getting in deep behind enemy lines and pin-pointing bombing drops on the Taliban (and even with the exact co-ordinates the Yanks still managed to stuff up some bombing runs).

Hmm well, Australias SASR contribution was tiny compared to the US special forces. So you can expect a few more mistakes from teh AUstralians. DOn't forget the AUstralian SASR also killed 6 villagers who were not Taliban or Al Qaeda in gun battles.

I would not be surprised as the stories Ive heard that the US has special forces already inside Iran for a year now, training the rebel forces there, if they were actually Aussie SAS.

Highly unlikely.

"Australia sells huge quantities of Uranium to China, makes heaps of money in the process. China invades Taiwan and threatens Japan, South Korea and USA if they get involved. USA pushes Australia to sanction China by halting all exports of Uranium. Australia complies. China threatens to take Australias Uranium by force if sanctions are not withdrawn. Australia calls its bluff and sticks to it's guns, thus pleasing the US. China retaliates by launching it's armed forces towards Australia
in a VERY BIG WAY, followed by tankers and ships of miners and workers. "

LOL, next time look at a map, look where Australia is and where CHina is. Next read about the Chinese military capability. Quite frankly, it wouldn't happen. China would movce into Siberia before they cam down here.

Just quickly, with Irans Ahmadinejad visiting Indonesia recently and also stating he will withdraw from the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, doesn't that sound like to you that he is planing on arming the Indonesian with nuclear know how, thus threatening Australia in 10 years time?

Only if we give them urnaium LOL.

Originally posted by Melbourne_Militia
G'day all,



"Australia sells huge quantities of Uranium to China, makes heaps of money in the process. China invades Taiwan and threatens Japan, South Korea and USA if they get involved. USA pushes Australia to sanction China by halting all exports of Uranium. Australia complies. China threatens to take Australias Uranium by force if sanctions are not withdrawn. Australia calls its bluff and sticks to it's guns, thus pleasing the US. China retaliates by launching it's armed forces towards Australia
in a VERY BIG WAY, followed by tankers and ships of miners and workers. "

What happens now? Will the USA come in to protect Australia's sovereignty and it's own interests there? Or will it sacrifice our partnership because it's forces are so stretched all over the globe? Dont forget that this sort of action would require almost all the USA armed forces to repel the Chinese and possibly NATO aswell.

Or does Australia, withdraw it's sanctions and please China and it's future earnings potential and shaft the USA?

Tricky predicament that could very well eventuate!

Just quickly, with Irans Ahmadinejad visiting Indonesia recently and also stating he will withdraw from the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, doesn't that sound like to you that he is planing on arming the Indonesian with nuclear know how, thus threatening Australia in 10 years time?


Melbourne_Militia

Given where the uranium mines ARE in Australia how are they going to get to them? And once they get to them then what? Walk the stuff out?

Pine Gap is certainly a reason but not the definitive.As we are the only stable western nation in the southern hemisphere it is in Australia's interests to support the US,not because they are the global superpower but because they embrace our way of life.

Terrorism cannot be tolerated by any free thinking nation.

Besides who would actually help us if we needed military aid...the UK...not bloody likely.just the good old US of A.

China has always covertly tried to obtain a powerbase in southeast Asia..just look at the recent Soloman Islands events...a President bought buy chinese money...so the
populace goes on the rampage against chinese interests and called for their leaders resignation....Australia sent in troops to keep order,so without the backing of the US Indonesia would walk into this country.

Unfortunately I think the sale of uranium to China is inappropriate,although good for the economy,I wonder how it will come back to us....bit like Menzies..good ol' pig iron bob.

Australia has lost personnel in the recent conflicts. SGT Andrew Russell, SAS, was killed in Afghanistan. WO2 David Nary (SAS) was killed in Kuwait while undertaking mission rehearsal, and Private Jake Kovco (3RAR, not SAS) was recently killed in Iraq (the circumstances of his death are still being investigated. Stating that he "offed himself" when that simply isn't known (and it has been categorically denied) is quite frankly offensive. I suggest before people start spruiking on about things they obviously have no knowledge of, they should do some basic research first.

As for the Army Int Corps insider, a bigger load of rubbish I have not heard. Anything that is sensitive can be zeroised in seconds. And if it was that much of problem, I'm sure a strike mission with a couple of 2000lb bombs on F/A-18's from Tindal would be just as effective (and a little less catastrophic) as having a nuke fired into the facility, and with a little less fallout (both physically and metaphorically).

The turning point for Australia will be when we start taking "Battle" casualities.
Visions of our troops coming home in body bags tends to polarise a nation - either one way or the other.
It appears to me that, IMO, the insurgents don't appear to be targeting Australian troops to the extent that they are targeting US and internal Police Forces in country.
Is this because of the Australian attitude towards the local populase or better intel that our body count has been minimal? Or are we posted to more "Safe Zone" areas than our US counterparts?
I seriously doubt that Australia has any "hidden" Nukes as our Media and Independant Politicians would get a sniff eventually and...... not to mention the Aboriginal land rights issues that would arise from a "Secret" installation being built with out consultation.
Although our Media isn't (quite) as bad as the British tabloids (although we are getting there) 60 Minutes would dine out on this story for years.

Ive been saying this for for years...Australia needs a massive missile silo base in central Australia. Half nuclear and half conventional so when Bang Bang Sumoliono or what ever the $%^& his name is today can begin to treat us here with some respect. Point in matter is when a few weeks back he withdrew his diplot in Canberra because we gave political assylum to some Papuan's, although at the same time over 120 of his illegal fishing boats were caught in our northwest red handed with shark fins even though he commited to stopping them from coming. I say these people with no respect for western law need to be treated with contempt and they only understand the law of the gun (sad and sorry) and until they can commit to peaceful honest dealings in the world missile tests over Christmas Island would be a good deterant.