The Israile/palastinian conflict

The Israile/palastinian conflict...

What do you guys hink about it...personally i think, if only they could SHARE the land, it would be great, but on both "sides" there have been terrible atrocities comitted. The suicide bombings and mortar attacks are terrible, as are the bulldozing of homes, the shooting of children ect....

Personally i think that the israiles have their heads up their own asses in some respects...if only they gave Hamas a chance then, ya' never know, some good might come of it.

Please bear in mind that, before the whole "its the jews holy land" issue comed up, that i am of jewish decent (my father was jewish), and ALL the jews i know, think that the land should be shared and although terrible things have hapenned, that all grievences be forgivven and forgotten, and a peace plan set out from there, sure there will be packets of terrorist/militia groups on both sides, but with the co-operation of "isreal" and "palastine", i think it could work out....

What do yall' think?

Hello Crackity Jones

I am sorry, but I have another individual that requested the following be posted in here, and I do not wish to loose your premise of a question. I ensure you both my and my adversary, will remain polite and be addressing facts within your topic. I think in the grand scheme of things, we will be getting this back to your point in a timely fashion

The points that follow, was in a result of sheer frustration in seeing responses of uneducated individuals assumng the matter of the Palestinians and Israel is and always was, as is played out in the Media.

Posted in a volitile page by Shane and moved here as requested.

This Elitist Liberal Dribble is becoming quite amusing. Enlightened, Knowledgeable, and Wishing to not knowingly spread false information. Ha! I guess that was thrown out the window in this Topic.

Lets for one dismiss this notion that Israel uprooted masses of peoples.

Is a guy named Mark Twain known to any of you? Mark Twain visited Jerusalem and the area in the 1860's and wrote in his book "The Innocents Abroad". Buy his book and read it.

His remarks, of the region?

"A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds"

"hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country."

"a silent mournful expanse"

"we never saw a human being on the whole route"

"a desolation"

Masses of Arab's? Funny In the 1900's, the area had a population totaling 120000 Arabs, that covered Israel Proper, and 600000 Arabs if including the West Bank and Jordan (According to the Ottomans). Most of which did not even live in Palestine, but in other areas. The Land was purchased from these Migrant Owners, and at a premium rate. The influx of wandering Arab's started to arrive once the Balfour Declaration was in it's infancy, and just prior to the State or Israel. They were seeking Medical Assistance and Opportunities for Advancment. Israel was clearing Swamp Land, and began agricultural farming, bringing more Arab's into the area. All these poor displaced people, we forget never lived there anyways

Oh, and this is good to. Are their any Arabs Speaking people here who would wish to confirm or deny this. Exactly what does the Word Palestine mean? All Arab words have meanings and most are based from the Koran. Where did this word ever come from?? Certainly not Arabs.

And to that matter, the Arab States had generally regarded Palestine as part of Syria, until late the last century.

But who gave this area this name?? The Romans and it was as an Insult against the Jew's who stood against the Holy Roman Empire. The word actually derived from Israel's worst Enemy, the Philistines, but evenually changed to Palaistaina, and further to become Palestine.

To further this premise try this:

Exactly who ran the Palestine Post for all those years?
Exactly who played in the Palestine Orchestra?
And I wonder who made up the Palestine Brigade Regiment?

Arab's? Well surprise, it was the our Jewish Brother.

Until this century, Palestine was a word which refered to the Jews.

And this is just a Tipped of FACT in respects to this matter.

It doesn't even account for Jews have always lives in Israel since it 1st became a nation.
It doesn't even account they have a Kingdom Claim dating back 3500 Years.
It doesn't even account the Original inhabitants are all long dead and buried cultures. (Philistines, Phoencians, Canaanites and none where Arabs)

Anyone who wishes, I'd be pleased to educate you on this, in it's own Topic.

But you are being fed a line of crap from Revisionist Historians and the MSM, and unfortunately, you seem to be enjoying the meal.

Ignorance is Bliss is a better term to use for the degenerating topic. This in a site that the emphasis is on, Ignorance Denied. Strange how that works isn't it.

And Agian, to the Topic, do none of you care that a Terrorist State and a Sponsor of Terrorists, will be getting Nukes? Wakeup people. Get your heads out of the Fuzzy Speak, and use some common sense.

Ciao

Shane

Back to the Now, and as I noted Crackity, is was a Volitile Topic originally discussing the Iran Nukem, Israel Nukem aspects of political life. That's back to the point of the last line noted. The topic, unfortunately degenerated into a free for all.

I expect my friend should arrive at some point, and please feel free to jump in and offer your thoughts as they may arise, or direct us, if we seem to be incorrect on matters.

Of course, others are also welcomed, but be civil. I have no problem with my Arab Cousins, and I have no problems with my Jewish brothers. It's the BS that is the Problem.

Ciao

Shane

some intresting stuff there...

i understand what youy are saying, and please do not get me wrong when i say this but, wether or not the land was used/cultivated/ect., i still was where people lived, and i think both sides of theis conflict have jumped the gun so many times that it has escelated into a massive thing, where inevitabley, one side has been victorious...

I dont wish to look back to the past too much, im more concerned with what happens now, as the simple saying goes.."wipe the slate clean, and do it better this time", if only we can do this concerning this conflict, i summise that ALOT of the problems will ber resolved...

Crackity

Originally posted by Crackity_Jones
if only they gave Hamas a chance then, ya' never know, some good might come of it.

Hamas has openly and repeatedly stated that their mission is to destroy isreal.

Why the HECK should israel "give them a chance"????

Israel give the palestinians a chance every single day, a chance to stop bominb israeli citizens and agree to peace. Each and every day, they reject it.

that all grievences be forgivven and forgotten, and a peace plan set out from there,

Sure, it should. And the yehudis offered peace, many times. Its been rejected, every time. The only thing that the palestinians ever came close to accepting was complete autonomy in their own state, a reversion of israel to the original borders, and control of at least half of Jerusalem to boot. That wasunder arafat, after a lifetime of fighting and getting nowhere. Now they want the whole thing, they want the state of israel simply detroyed and replaced by an arab government.

Its simply not going to happen. And the palestinians can do nothing about it, except target and kill civilians. That's their future. The 'ball', as for the past few generations, is 'in their court'; they can call for peace and stop fighting, or continue to live under occupation.


I agree, we can simply chalk the entire past up to a terrible nightmare, and simply look at the present and future. The present is that the territory is under isreali occupation, and they simply aren't going to leave, so long as there are attacks against them coming out of it and within it.

Originally posted by Crackity_Jones
.... and i think both sides of theis conflict have jumped the gun so many times that it has escelated into a massive thing, where inevitabley, one side has been victorious...

I dont wish to look back to the past too much, im more concerned with what happens now, as the simple saying goes.."wipe the slate clean, and do it better this time", if only we can do this concerning this conflict, i summise that ALOT of the problems will ber resolved...

Crackity

An excellent Opinion, and one that I respectfully agreed with in respects to your Post.

But, when the Arguement starts, I trust it will be dealing with the Revisionist Aspect.

As I noted, I have no difficulties with either the Jews or Arabs in my Homeland.
Israel is truthfully a much bigger thing than just these two groups living there today.

But since you are here, and asking, I'll offer this.

The two State Solution will NEVER BECOME A REALITY until the Jerusalem matter is finalized in Stone, Blood or Text.

The rabit frothings of the Extremeist in both parties, (The Jews have the Hawks, and the Palestinians have the Terrorist), will never settle anything until the City of Jerusalem becomes the Capital of the World, and is Governed outside of what will become the State of Plaestine and the State of Israel.

The EU, in it's infancy support this concept in 48, but the Hawk's and Arab Radicals refused it outright. Peres himself has noted this makes sense and was willing to further this, if for nothing else but to stop the bloodshed (Peres was generally the Dovish Type). There are even indications of UN representatives from the Palestinians in the last few years that, this will be the only solution aside from making the City of Jerusalem the World Capital for Islam.

I was going through the U.N. Resolutions and Assembly texts, and well as the Meeting reports (which are listed and verbatim in the U.N.'s Site under the Middle East Peace topic, and this has been implied as a solution, but currently, they have made the choice to stay the course and follow the Quartets Road map to Peace, which resemble much more of a Mouse Trap (Do you recall that game?) to chaos. Even if completed, it still does nothing to address Jerusalem. That's still on the U.N. Backburner.

And to add to this list, it is not beyond any sort of realm of reality to suggest the Vatican also would welcome this. Nothing todate is out in the Open, but the Vatican has always wish to intercede in respects to the Holy City.

Then of course, we have the parties, (and there are many) that W/S eludes to in several of his posts, and that being those Secretive Societies that frankly are the driving forces behind ALL the Chaos in the Middle East today, with grand schemes to seat their god like puppet in the Holy Temple. They are the only people truthfully responsible for the events we see playout on the Media outlets they own or read about in the Print they own. They are the ones who have given the Palestinians monies that they know would be used against Israel, They also Play Israel in a similiar manner. Dark vs White Majik. But here, this is nothing new, and frankly it is the OLDEST plan still being worked on in the History of Man (Upright man). The Abomination of Desolation standing where he ot not.

Of course, this is my opinion on the reality we face when considering this matter.

I love Israel.
I have been to Israel.
I was detained by Israeli Police for inticing roits in the West Bank.
I was threatened by Arab's when asked about their newly elected Terrorist Chairman Arafat.
I was faced by Automatic Weapons in Tiberius, when approached by the IDF, and questioned about discussions I was having with suspected Radical Arabs.

But I stil love the place.

Ciao

Shane

sorry if any of my views are a bit..Niave...and also if my history aint great, after all, im only 13

Originally posted by Crackity_Jones
sorry if any of my views are a bit..Niave...and also if my history aint great, after all, im only 13

You were right on target with everything.

The people answering your posts are Zionist Extremists who know nothing more than the lies, and propaganda fed to them every day of their lives.

There was a nation called Palestine, and it existed right where Israel is today.

Always ask 'If not Palestine what was the land called between WWI and WWII'?

Maps that tell all

The history of the last 80+ years is rather complex, but I think I can condense it down to a small volume.

Before WWI the land was part of the Islamic Ottoman Empire which was defeated by the allied powers.

The Brits and French divided it up into smaller nations including Palestine which occupied the same space as Israel, and Palestine today.

The Brits allowed tens of thousands of Jews to immigrate every year swelling their numbers from 11% of the population under the Ottomans to almost a majority by 1947.

Against the will of all Mid-East nations in 1947 the UN began drawing up a plan to divide Palestine into two separate nations; one Jewish the other not.

The Jews of Israel declared independence in 1948, and the Arab nations attacked soon after.

Israels established borders after this was is called THE GREEN LINE.

In 1967 Israel launched a sneak attack against its neighbors and occupied Arab lands.

The problem is that in taking the land Israel did not accept the people.

Today there are more than four million Palestinians living under Illegal Israeli millitary occupation, and it has been going on for almost 40 years.

No where else in the world have so many people been denied sovereignty for so long.



Keep on looking and you will see past the lies the Zionists promote as history.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Hamas has openly and repeatedly stated that their mission is to destroy isreal.

Why the HECK should israel "give them a chance"????

Israel give the palestinians a chance every single day, a chance to stop bominb israeli citizens and agree to peace. Each and every day, they reject it.

Hamas has said they will recognize Israel and end all hostilities in exchange for a withdraw to the 1967 pre-war borders.

They ask nothing more than for Israel to give back what they took when they invaded in a sneak attack.

The Hamas cease-fire has been unbroken for over 18 months.

PLEASE show where Hamas has claimed resoponsibility for a terrorist attack in that time frame.

Sure, it should. And the yehudis offered peace, many times. Its been rejected, every time.

This is an outright lie. The Palestinians have always offered peace, and Israen NEVER has offered to withdraw from all the occupied lands, or Sovereignty for the people.

If you think different PLEASE show me where so that I can debunk the propaganda you read.

it is permissible to lie for the sake of the Land of Israel

By: Yitzhak Yizernitzky

Commentary: This remark by Shamir was quoted by Akiva Eldar in an article about Israeli lies to cover up the atrocities committed by their armed forces.

student.cs.ucc.ie...

Don't ever forget that they will lie, and lie even with a smile on their face, but when the light of the truth shines on them they shrink away like vampires.

And the reason for it is simple.

The two hardest things for people to admit is that they have been duped by the people they trusted most, or that their compartiots could be in the wrong in any way.

Originally posted by Malichai
There was a nation called Palestine, and it existed right where Israel is today.

Hello Malichai

So, let first deal with your misconception. 'A nation/people called Palestine'

I had believed the Historical accounts, (NOT FABRICATIONS OF A ZIONIST) were quite easy to follow.

But alas.....

Israel was a Nation made up of 12 Families that was given this land, by the God of Israel, and the God of Ishmael, who is the father of the Arab Peoples.

This took place shortly (40 Years) after the Exodus, and Israel has been a Nation from this time, until about 720 BC when divisions took place and ten of the Familes disappeared. The remaining 2 families, made up of mainly of our brothers Judeah and Levi and the area became known as Judeah.

They (the Jews) remained inorder to keep the covenant with God, and the Levi's of course where the tenders to the Holy Temple constructed by David (King David, King of Israel).

From my Dating, Israel became a Nation in and around 1300 BC, predating Islam by some 2000 Years.

Around 580 BC, a Babylonian King, by the name of Nebuchadnezzar, captured the land of the Jews, (Judea), and destroyed the Temple on the Temple Mount.

While it is clear, many of the Population where exiled to Babylon or slaughter, many where infact allowed to remain in Judea, and over the course of time, rebuilt Israel and The Temple a second time.

Then came the Romans, and the second destruction of the Temple, and the much misconceptive moniker, Palestine. This was Titus's label for the Jews. The Origin was arrived at by consulting historians of the time to seek the most vicious enemy of Israel, and Titus was told that was the Philistines, and thus Palaistina, became the name for Judea and named so, for the Jews.

From this point of time, Palestine, a slanderous name for the Jews, has been a protectorate.

First the Romans, and thru history until as you note, the Ottoman and lastly British.

So, the Palestinian people, (The Jews) have had a presence in what is known as Israel today, for about the last 3500 Years. Either as a Nation and/or State or under occupation detailed as a protectorate.

No Arab can claim this. This is Historial Fact. This is nothing of some Zionist invention. (We'll deal with them later OK?)

We just need to at least find the common things that are Factual Malaichia inorder to present this great debate to enlighten eachother and the masses wishing to consider this.

BABY STEPS, we will need to do this in BABY STEPS.

So with this said, Am I wrong?????

Awaiting your reply to this.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Malichai
Hamas has said they will recognize Israel and end all hostilities in exchange for a withdraw to the 1967 pre-war borders.

Unacceptable. Peace for Peace, or nothing. The yehudis are not so stupid as to think that if the occupation were over that the arabs woulnd't use it for yet another war to try to wipe them out. Hamas and the palestinians can have the current PLO areas in exchange for peace, or they can remain in occupation in perpetuity. They have no ability to throw out the yehudis, so thats simply how its going to be.

They ask nothing more than for Israel to give back what they took when they invaded in a sneak attack.

They will not be given it. No matter how many civilians and children they blow up.

The Hamas cease-fire has been unbroken for over 18 months.

Irrelevant.

The Palestinians have always offered peace, and Israen NEVER has offered to withdraw from all the occupied lands,

Nor should they, ever. The palestinains have used the little amount of land that they were granted by the yehudis to wage war.
The palestinians will never give up their war for their land, thus, there will never be peace, and the yehudis will simply remain in perpetual occupation.



All sideline arguements are entirely irelevant. It doesn't matter if the yehudi claim is legit, or if the palestinian cliam is legit.

The yehudis have complete military dominance over the palestinians. They occupy their territory. No one can force them out. The yehudis are scared that the palestinians will fight a guerilla war against them, even if they returned to the original borders of israel. If the palestinians want to end the occupation, they have to convince the yehudis that they won't do that. Period. No arab army ever assembled has been able to defeat the yehudis wholesale, and now, with their advanced nukes, no one ever will be able to do so.

Originally posted by Shane

Originally posted by Malichai
There was a nation called Palestine, and it existed right where Israel is today.

Hello Malichai

So, let first deal with your misconception. 'A nation/people called Palestine'

I had believed the Historical accounts, (NOT FABRICATIONS OF A ZIONIST) were quite easy to follow.

If there was no nation called Palestine what was the land called from after WWI until 1948?

It was called PALESTINE!

And here is just one link to a Jewish run Website to prove it.

www.factsofisrael.com...

First the Romans, and thru history until as you note, the Ottoman and lastly British.

The ancient history you seem to understand well enough, but the last 1500 years or so seem to be a mystery to you.

For 1300 years the land was under Muslim Rule.

A very long page here[not written by Muslims], but well worth it for the maps alone.

www.friesian.com...

Please try to read this, or at least look at all of the maps....

So, the Palestinian people, (The Jews) have had a presence in what is known as Israel today, for about the last 3500 Years. Either as a Nation and/or State or under occupation detailed as a protectorate.

Or as part of an Islamic nation. It was not 'occupation' for the 1300 years Muslims ruled the land. It was possession. Jews were a minority, but recognized as citizens of the different Islamic Empires that ruled. Second class citizens yes, but not under military rule.

No Arab can claim this. This is Historial Fact. This is nothing of some Zionist invention. (We'll deal with them later OK?)

Every Arab can claim this because of 1300 years of possession. The Jews cannot claim it to be their own and no one elses.

Both have claim, but the Jewish claim is ancient, and there is debate on whether or not all Jews are deceded from Israel.

Religion and Race are not the same.

We just need to at least find the common things that are Factual Malaichia inorder to present this great debate to enlighten eachother and the masses wishing to consider this.

BABY STEPS, we will need to do this in BABY STEPS.

So with this said, Am I wrong?????

Everything I said was true. You did not address anything I said.

Yes, you were wrong.

Try to quote my words when you reply because I think you may not be understanding it all.

[edit on 15-5-2006 by Malichai]

Originally posted by Nygdan

Irrelevant.

It was relevant as a reply to the falsehoods you posted.

I think you even know what you said was not true when you wrote it.

Opportunity was provided for you to prove what you said, and if it was true it would be easy.

No one can force them out.

I'll bet America could...

The rest of your post is so hate filled, biased, and unrelated to what I said that there will be no reply for it.

[edit on 15-5-2006 by Malichai]

Originally posted by Malichai
It was relevant as a reply to the falsehoods you posted.

What falsehoods?

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by Malichai
It was relevant as a reply to the falsehoods you posted.

What falsehoods?

Try looking back to my reply to you.

The one big one is that Israel has offered peace.

By the leagal implications of the words, Israel has not ever offered peace to the Palestinian people.

Peace includes sovereignty.

They have been offered that, just not for all the territory that they'd like to have.

Originally posted by Nygdan
They have been offered that, just not for all the territory that they'd like to have.

They were not offered Sovereignty.

Israel would not make a formal pacific settlement.

The Camp David offer gave Israel control of their borders, the right to re-ocupy, an effective veto in their government, and of course the Dome of the Rock.

That was not a Peace offer, that was attempted Armed Robbery.

You know something.....In a year from now we will all be debating over how long it will take the Earth to heal herself and for greenery to grow again in that entire regoin of the world. Sure Isreal has offered a olive branch from time to time, albiet a posioned one and sure Hamas is in the drivers seat and are hell bent on the distruction of Isreal but we all know Palestine is all bark. Iran one way or another is going to give everyone in Isreal a free pass to cafe noir and in return Isreal will turn everything in the region into heat and light and thats that. The writing is on the wall guys.


Alot of self fofulling prophecy going on here.


And sence when were 2nd generation Russian Jews allowed to squat on that land and tell everyone who has lived there for 5000 years, how it is. The imbalance is due to an abrasive nation of powerfull squatters who really dont belonge there. Someone should have gave them a midwestern state. They run America anyways...right?



[edit on 15-5-2006 by Census]

Crackity
Have a look at this document it is quite long. I am only about halfway through it myself but it details a lot of what transpired before the establishment of Israel.

From among the several authorities of international law who have questioned the validity of the Mandate, the views of Professor Henry Cattan may be quoted:

"The Palestine Mandate was invalid on three grounds set out hereinafter.

"1. The first ground of invalidity of the Mandate is that by endorsing the Balfour Declaration and accepting the concept of the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine it violated the sovereignty of the people of Palestine and their natural rights of independence and self-determination. Palestine was the national home of the Palestinians from time immemorial. The establishment of a national home for an alien people in that country was a violation of the legitimate and fundamental rights of the inhabitants. The League of Nations did not possess the power, any more than the British Government did, to dispose of Palestine, or to grant to the Jews any political or territorial rights in that country. In so far as the Mandate purported to recognize any rights for alien Jews in Palestine, it was null and void.

"2. The second ground of invalidity of the Mandate is that it violated, in spirit and in letter, Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, under the authority of which it purported to be made. The Mandate violated Article 22 in three respects:

"(a) The Covenant had envisaged the Mandate as the best method of achieving its basic objective of ensuring the well-being and development of the peoples inhabiting the Mandated Territories.

"Was the Palestine Mandate conceived for the well-being and development of the inhabitants of Palestine? The answer is found in the provisions of the Mandate itself. The Mandate sought the establishment in Palestine of a national home for another people, contrary to the rights and wishes of the Palestinians ... It required the Mandatory to place the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as would secure the establishment of a Jewish national home. It required the Mandatory to facilitate Jewish immigration into Palestine. It provided that a foreign body known as the Zionist Organization should be recognized as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in matters affecting the establishment of the Jewish national home. It is clear that, although the Mandates System was conceived in the interest of the inhabitants of the Mandated Territory, the Palestine Mandate was conceived in the interest of an alien people originating from outside Palestine, and ran counter to the basic concept of mandates. As Lord Islington observed when he opposed the inclusion of the Balfour Declaration in the Palestine Mandate: "The Palestine Mandate is a real distortion of the mandatory system". The same distinguished Lord added:

"When one sees in Article 22 ... that the well-being and development of such peoples should form a sacred trust of civilization, and when one takes that as the note of the mandatory system, I think your Lordships will see that we are straying down a very far path when we are postponing self-government in Palestine until such time as the population is flooded with an alien race."

"(b) The Palestine Mandate also ran counter to the specific concept of mandates envisaged by Article 22 for countries detached from Turkey at the end of the First World War. In the case of those countries, the intention was to limit the Mandate to the rendering of temporary advice and assistance. It is doubtful whether the people of Palestine, as also other Arab peoples detached from Turkey, were in need of administrative advice and assistance from a Mandatory. Their level of culture was not inferior to that existing at the time in many of the nations that were Members of the League of Nations. Such Arab communities had actively participated with the Turks in the government of their country. Their political maturity and administrative experience were comparable to the political maturity and administrative experience of the Turks, who were left to stand alone.

"Be that as it may, the framers of the Palestine Mandate did not restrict the Mandatory's role to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance, but granted the Mandatory 'full powers of legislation and administration' (Article 1). Such 'full powers of legislation and administration' were not laid down in the interest of the inhabitants, but were intended to be used, and in fact were used, to establish by force the Jewish national home in Palestine. Clearly this was an abuse of the purpose of the Mandate under the Covenant and a perversion of its raison d'être.

Source

Hello Malaichai

Seems like the Dust is lifting off of this thread, and it is enticing responses.

One thing I need to note this a second, or third, time is it?

You noted

The ancient history you seem to understand well enough, but the last 1500 years or so seem to be a mystery to you.

For 1300 years the land was under Muslim Rule.

What did I say for your comment to insinuate otherwise.

I noted quite clearly.

First the Romans, and thru history until as you note, the Ottoman and lastly British.

I am not arguing this. As you have noted, so I trust we are both on the same page in respects to this. I'd hate to think your arguement is based solely on the basis of arguement for the sake of it. Facts man, we need the Facts.

The point we are still reaching for is that Palestine was a Nation.

Did it have it's own form of governement, legal system, taxation system, educations system, Hopistal system, Roads and infastructure development, and all those other thing associaited with running a country, not to forget the required capital. NOOOOoooooo!

None of these have been inplace during those 'years' you are discussing.

And thanks for confirming my side of the story, by producing that British Protectorate map. Thats the sort of assistance we both need to provide to clear this mess up and solving this problem for the world.

Ciao

Shane






[edit on 15-5-2006 by Shane]