Why will no one listen to William Rodriguez's story (more importantly, why did the 9/11 Commission

Uhh...

That's called exaggeration. Figure of speech. Whatever you want to call it. Thought that was obvious.

What about the important part of that post, the puzzles all fitting together?

It's not obvious, it's not even an exaggeration - I'd call it disinformation - the only mention I made of anything to do with secondary explosions was questioning their origin, I did not deny it which is what you were saying.. God knows where the 'high' bit came from..
How many other 'Truth Seeker' facts are 'exaggerations (disinformation)'?

Fair enough...

My fault for putting that on you. Nice try with the disinfo bit, though.

Now that I admitted I was wrong, how about you comment on the real substance from that post. I'll be waiting...

That's alright, but now you see what it's like for me and other people who take a similar stance when every time you try and say something you're called a 'disinfo' person. I'm sure you can admit that what you did can easily be confused as a disinfo tactic...
I did contribute to the discussion, a main point being the my post above yours with regards to the aviation fuel..

ANOK

What has been said was that basically there was no fire proofing on the building and that that allowed the building to collapse.
And the sceptics out there that are comparing the normal melting point of steel to that of the maximum possible heat generated by the fire should think again because the capasity of a steel beam to withstand a load depends on the energy being applied on it.

So imagine what happened, basically the twin towers is a giant truss. say at least 1/3 of the beams were taken out by the plane. Then theres the fire, so there is a much much larger amount of energy being taken by the remaining beams. So for it to stand as long as it did is amazing. Since the buildings were designed to withstand a accidental plane crash (1/2 the size of the plane and 1/2 the speed)

And I am not at all trying to say that the US government were not involved in 911, it is my belieif that the Government knew that the attack was happening and simply 'turned its head' because an attack of that scale would (and was) very good for the Bush administration. As was shown in that new movie about 911, sorry i forgot what it was called, the link for it was in another forum on ATS, most of the US airforce fighter jets were moved away on field excersises or what not on 911.

And by the way, my university is actually a research intensive university that produces most of the Australian Standards used in construction, so Id be willing to bet that my lecturer has had a reaonsably close look at what happened.

Originally posted by d3si1r3
say at least 1/3 of the beams were taken out by the plane.

Not even near accurate. Total overestimate.

Then theres the fire, so there is a much much larger amount of energy being taken by the remaining beams.

Back up "much much larger" with some concrete evidence. Everyone on the official side has utterly failed to do this, and has simply taken it for granted for further theorizing on how a natural collapse could have worked.

So for it to stand as long as it did is amazing. Since the buildings were designed to withstand a accidental plane crash (1/2 the size of the plane and 1/2 the speed)

This is wrong too. A 707 is not half the size of a 767, or anything near it, and 707s also have faster cruise speeds than 767s.

Do your reaserch guys before assuming things. A 707 is not half the size of a 757 in fact it's heavier and only a couple of feet shorter. If the towers could handle multiple 707 hits it should have easily handled one 757...

Boeing 757-200
Empty weight 128,730 lb (58,390 kg)
Max. takeoff weight 255,000 lb (115,680 kg)
Length 155 ft 3 in (47.32 m)
Wingspan 124 ft 10 in (38.05 m)
Tail height 44 ft 6 in (13.56 m)
Power Plant Two Rolls-Royce RB211, Pratt & Whitney PW2037, Pratt
& Whitney PW2040, or Pratt & Whitney PW2043 high-bypass ratio turbofan engines,
rated at 36,600 lbf (163 kN) to 43,500 lbf (193 kN) thrust each

Boeing 707-320B (most commonly used version)
Empty weight 146,400 lb (66,406 kg)
Max. takeoff weight 333,600 lb (151,320 kg)
Length 152 ft 11 in (46.61 m)
Wingspan 145 ft 9 in (44.42 m)
Tail height 42 ft 5 in (12.93 m)
Power Plant Four 80 kN (18,000 lbf) JT3D-3s or four 84.4 kN (19,000 lbf) JT3D-7s.

Frank A. Demartini, on-site construction manager for the World Trade Center, spoke of the resiliance of the towers in an interview recorded on January 25, 2001. "The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door -- this intense grid -- and the jet plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting".

Source for quote:
www.freepressinternational.com...

"I Designed it for a 707 hit"

Building collapse shocks towers engineer, architect

[edit on 16/5/2006 by ANOK]

Yes, screen door type structure of steel netting with pencil holes is an excellent analogy.

This is slightly off topic but Anok's remark brings me to this query...

Are there any sound experts out there? Questions have been raised regarding the multiple low-frequency explosions heard on the 911 Eyewitness tape which precede the collapses. Those were an eye opener for me. Some skeptics argue that those explosions should have been heard more broadly at the scene and recorded on other videotapes which record the collapses from Manhattan rather than from across the bay.

My question is whether those low frequency booms are more likely to be heard and recorded from a greater distance than immediately next to the source location? Sound wave formation and travel regarding specific frequency generated and below ground generation - I'm wondering whether these and other factors might contribute to the phenomenon. One obvious reason for picking the nearly subsonic explosions across the water is the quieter environment there. Comments?

How do people explain the explosion Mr. Rodriguez felt BELOW him in the basement area BEFORE the 1st plane crash in the WTC 1?

This past week I had the great pleasure of meeting William Rodriquez, a humble man from Puerto Rico who worked at the World Trade Center.

Arriving at 8:30 on the morning of 9-11 he went to the maintenance office located on the first sublevel, one of six sub-basements beneath ground level... As he was talking with others, there was a very loud massive explosion which seemed to emanate from between sub-basement B2 and B3. There were twenty-two people on B2 sub-basement who also felt and heard that first explosion.

Just seconds later there was another explosion way above which made the building oscillate momentarily. This, he was later told, was a plane hitting the 90th floor. Upon hearing about the plane, he immediately thought of the people up in the restaurant. Then there were other explosions just above B1 and individuals started heading for the loading dock to escape the explosion's resulting rampant fire. When asked later about those first explosions he said: "I would know if an explosion was from the bottom or the top of the building." He heard explosions both before and after the plane hit the tower.

www.theconservativevoice.com...

Originally posted by AgentSmith
I can't help wonder what would cause a fiery explosion in the basement if not the fuel? And what purpose would it serve in demolishing the towers when it occured at the moment of impact which was much earlier?

algoxy.com...

The two made their way to the parking garage, but found that it, too, was gone. ‘There were no walls, there was rubble on the floor, and you can't see anything’ he said

No walls, NO WALLS!!! When I saw that I knew for certain that I had the explosives located right as I developed multiple theories into the scenario

Rodriguez's story fit perfectly within the C4 coated rebar cast into the concrete, "built to demolish method" of placing explosives and distributing them during constrcution, engineering them in, to achieve the very smooth, uniform appearance and descent.

seattlelaw

Here's some audio analysis from several vantage points. The distinct peaks known from 911eyewitness have been caught elsewhere, but not as clear.

Anyway, check it out.

I'd like to slip in here and just add this list of statements I've compiled that help identify locations of damage/explosions/fires. I'm just including this in case it is helpful to this discussion.

Taken from transcripts listed in the NIST report

8:47 a.m. WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X – “…?… There is a fire on 22.”

8:47 a.m. WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X – “…?… on the 22nd floor a lot of debris.”

8:48 a.m. WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X – “…..Be advised I have two (ATM ?)
workers down here on B2 between the red and the yellow lot. Be advised, I got
two…workers hurt. I need a, ah, EMT down here ASAP.” “Where do you need
assistance for the (ATM?) workers?” “…?… between a the red lot and yellow lot where
the walkway where the (ATM?) office is”

8:49 a.m. WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X – “10-4, S4, I understand there may have been
an explosion on Liberty Street.”

8:50:48 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X – “…?… Be advised, I have two…. workers
down here on B2 between the red and …Be advised I got two…workers I need an EMT
down here ASAP.” “Where do you need assistance for the ….workers?” “B2 between
the red…walkway…”

8:51:12 PAPD Police Desk radio report, PA Channel W –“Four One to WTC” “Go ahead.” “B1
Level ..(garbled).. We had a minor explosion or major explosion. Something happened
down here.”

8:53:23 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X – “…?… Please let me get through the PATH
train. Something is going on at the PATH train. Can you ask somebody…?… make
announcement 310B…people running out of the PATH train. Copy?”

8:54 NYPD – PAPD is notified to shut down all PATH tunnels and trains
All ESU teams advised to respond to Church and Vesey Streets. (NYPD, McKinsey &
Company, 2002)

8:57:27 PAPD Police Desk radio reports, PA Channel W – Unit reports broken water pipes at the
P4 Level.

9:00:07 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X – “…to S4” “Be advised suite 4711 Building
1, there is a report of glass…” “…couldn’t get outside the room. There’re stuck inside

9:10:19 PAPD Police Desk radio report, PA Channel W – “TC …garbled…, Report of burning jet
fuel up on five one, jet fuel on five one, eight, eight. (Response) That was 51st floor,
smell of jet fuel? Negative, burning jet fuel, burning jet fuel, Roger. (Response) Ladder
ten you copy that? FDNY, on the 51st floor, burning jet fuel.

9:13:39 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X - : Building 1 is flooding. Building 1 is
flooding.

9:13:49 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X – “There’s a lot of water in Building 1. It’s
flooding.”

9:20:04 PAPD Police Desk radio report, PA Channel W – “A2Jouilie and A2, ah David ..?.. . Be
advised that the, ah, B4 Levels a negative condition down there. No one’s down there.
Also, be advised there are four additional Path Officers down stairs. Copy?” “Roger”

9:32:05 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X – “Don’t let…Don’t let no body come down
… here. Back em up. Back em up. Back it up all the way up, everybody. Get
everybody back.” “87 to 85” “Where are … back up. …Back up. Go back … back up.
All units back up.”

9:32:12 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X – “Be advised the concourse is flooding,
flooding with water. There is a lot of water in the concourse.” “We are aware of that.
We are aware of that.”

9:40:40 PAPD Police Desk radio report, PA Channel W – “Base…?… We have the stage on fire
at the main plaza. The stage is on fire on the ground level at the main plaza.”

(Engine 219 (post collapse operations, established water supply at West and Liberty
Streets, stretched hoselines and extinguished ground level fires))

9:47:00 FDNY radio communication, PA, WTC Channel 30 repeater: - “Battalion 7 to Battalion
9” “Battalion 9 to Battalion 7” “…?… These stairway walls have been compromised on
73 and 74. No smoke or fire problems, K.” “OK, 10-4”

9:47:44 FDNY radio communications, PA, WTC Channel 30 repeater – “One Five to Battalion 7”
“Go ahead, Ladder One Five” “What do ya got up there Chief?” “I’m standing in Boy
stairway on the 74th floor, no smoke or fire problem. The walls are breached so be
careful.” “Yea, 10-4, I saw that on 68. We’re on 71. We’re coming up behind ya.”
“OK, …? … six more to go.” “Let me know when you see fire.”

9:54:05 FDNY radio communications, PA, WTC Channel 30 repeater – “7 Alpha to Lobby
Command Post. Chief Palmer reports on the 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones. We
got an isolated pocket of fire and need at least two hand lines up there. K”

9:54:40 FDNY radio communication, PA, WTC Channel 30 repeater – “Battalion 7 to Ladder
One Five” “One Five” “I’m gona need your firefighters Adam stairway to knock down
two fires. Get a …?… house line stretched. We can get some water on it and knock it
down. K” “Alright, 10-4, were coming up the stairs. We’re on 77 now on the B stair.
We’ll be right to ya.”

9:55 FDNY radio communications, PA, WTC Channel 30 repeater: Ladder 15 is on 78th floor,
in B stairway, WTC 2, “trapped in here, we’ve got to, ah, put some fire out to get to ya.”

9:56:05 FDNY radio communication, PA, WTC Channel 30 repeater – “Fifteen Roof to Fifteen”
“Go ahead Fifteen Roof” “Recommend that ya go to the South stairs, the A stairs.” “Ah,
10-4, we’re going to knock down some fire over here in the B stairway. We’ll meet up
with ya.” “Get over to the A stair and help Chief Palmer.” “10-4, roof”

10:00 – 10:09 Surviving Chiefs work to recover command and additional units are arriving. WTC 1 - A firefighter, possibly from Ladder 3, reports over the radio a collapse on a
floor in the 60’s. It is the highest floor reported as being reached in the building. (New
York Time, website, timeline)

10:06 Box 1377, location of Alarm Box, Columbia and Woodhull Streets, (FDNY Box Alarm
Dispatch log and CD12/CD15)
Ladder 78 (post collapse operations, Command Post at Broadway and Vesey Streets,
extinguish street level fires on Broadway, supply water to Tower Ladder 15 on Liberty
Street)

10:06:01 10-84, Engine 271/E 6, (left Command Post at West and Vesey streets when WTC 1
collapsed, supplied water to standpipe Siamese at Verizon Building, extinguished fires
around Verizon bldg.) (FDNY Box Alarm Dispatch log and CD12/CD15)

10:06:04 10-84, Engine 282, (stretched and operated hoselines to extinguish debris fires) (FDNY Box Alarm Dispatch log and CD 12/CD15)

10:07 a.m. NYPD helicopters hovering near WTC 1 to check its condition radios, “About 15 floors
down from the top, it looks like its glowing red.” Aviation 14, radioed at 10:07 a.m.
“It’s inevitable.” Seconds later, another pilot (Aviation 6) reported: “I don’t think this
has too much longer to go. I would evacuate all people within the area of that second
building.” (New York Times)
NYPD helicopters: Aviation 6 warns that WTC 1 collapse is likely, and advises
immediate evacuation. (NYPD, McKinsey & Company)

10:19:56 Box 0064-1, location of Alarm Box, Greenwich and Liberty Streets, Deutsche Bank on
22 Floor – Floor Fell
Engine 309 /E 33
Ladder 146 /L 11

10:20 NYPD – Aviation 14 states the WTC 1 is leaning. (NYPD, McKinsey & Company)

10:23:36 10-84, Engine 246 /E235, (post collapse operations 5 WTC, hydrant hookup on
Broadway and Church Streets, water relay to E 503, operated hoseline on street level fires
at Church and Liberty Streets)

10:28:02 10-84, Ladder 78, (post collapse operations, Command Post at Broadway and Vesey
Streets, extinguish street level fires on Broadway, supply water to Tower Ladder 15 on
Liberty Street)

10:42:51 10-84, Engine 157 (Command Post at West Street, stretch hoseline, fight street fires)

11:10:21 10-84, Engine 206, (hooked to serviceable hydrant at Nassau and John Streets, relayed
water to E 221 that was supplying a Tower Ladder, stretched and operated hoselines at
Liberty Street debris fires)

1:40 Box 0300,
Engine 153 (stretched and operated hoselines at fires on Liberty Street, supplied Tower
Ladder 79)

3:20:52 10-84, Engine 236/E15, (responding to scene when WTC 1 collapsed, stretched handlines
from building standpipes and extinguished street level fires)

5:00 Box 8087, location of Alarm Box, WTC 2 lobby at Command Desk,
Ladder 165/18 (reported to West and Vesey Street Command Post, operated at N.Y.
Telephone Building basement fire)

And then follow up with I think there are some areas in the transcipts that are interesting to me.

1. There was significant debris reported on Floor 22 not very long after the plane impact and I'm having hard time with that one, especially since apparently the 22nd floor "fell" at about 10:19.

2. There was enough damage in the basement level (B4 I believe) that it injured workers and trapped workers.

3. The lower portions of the building (I believe basement level) were reporting broken water pipes...that's real hard to explain from an impact over 700 feet above that level.

Anyways, just trying to get the data in the discussion.