Why Time Travelers, and Not Aliens

Yes, yes, I know that time travel is theoretically unsound (you may even say "impossible"). There's no good positive indications that it is happening, or ever will happen. I understand that.

But when it comes to a alien and UFO reports, a time traveler scenario seems (to me, anyway) much more likely than visits by beings from other planets. Here are a few reasons why:

* We know people exist. That's something we can't say for aliens. Sure, we can assume that there are other intelligent lifeforms out there, but if we're going keep our assumptions to a minimum, it makes a lot more sense to make aliens a secondary choice for an "explanation." We have no radio signals, no bugs, no nothing to suggest there's anybody else out here in the Universe but us. So let's work from there.

* People are good at figuring things out. While time travel might currently be a theoretical impossibility, we have a knack for finding new theories that do allow things to happen. It used to be thought that atoms couldn't be split, too. Give us a few thousand years to play with it, and time travel might not be as hard as is seems.

* Continued lack of convincing physical evidence. UFOs and aliens sure are good at covering their tracks, aside from a few questionable ground traces. And the ground traces the have been found usually don't have much "alien" about them. Well, of course they wouldn't, if they came from Earth in the first place.

* General elusiveness. These aliens and UFOs are sure slippery rascals. The always seem to stay just out of reach, and never quite leave any evidence that could pin them down. Sort of like Gilligan always screwing things up just enough so the castaways don't get off the island. It's ridiculous. As skeptics say, how come, with all the sightings, isn't there even one piece of completely convincing evidence found?

It's a good question. The odds are just too high that so much strange stuff could happen and not one decent piece of evidence is left behind, unless... Unless they had a way of knowing exactly what mistakes were made and what damaging evidence was left behind. But how? Well, if you're from the future, all you have to do is look at your history books to find out just where and when the evidence was left behind, then go back and make sure it wasn't left in the first place, and solve the problem before it happens.

* Humanoid appearance. A lot of aliens are reported as being humanoid. Well, of course they would be if they're our descendants. The chances of an alien species looking like us is even higher than for their actual existence.

* General non-interference. Aliens certainly keep a low profile. They don't land on the White House lawn, and generally do as much as they can to stay out of the history books. The chance of ruining their own future existence might be a good reason why. If you don't buy into the very theoretical notion of "alternate time lines," you can see where significant intervention in our time could be very risky. A few nutty stories or blurry photos is fine. No harm done. But nothing that would cause a huge disruption.

* Technology seeding. As Jacques Vallee noticed in his research, aliens seem to be slowly teaching us to move forward technologically by giving us little glimpses of technology that is only a few decades more advanced than what we currently have. Considering that aliens could be thousands or millions of years more advanced than us, it's too much of a coincidence that they are so close to us, technologically. Unless they already know how much we know at any time. If they we're very subtly moving us forward by showing us glimpses of our near future. Why? I don't know. For some reason, it's important for us to advance and evolve faster than Nature would ordinarily let us.

* Punctuated societal development. Ever notice how human society, from the very first cities and states in the Near East to today, seems to advance in quick bursts, rather than steadily and slowly. Everybody always says how odd it is that the Sumerians seemed to come up with such complex laws seemingly out of nowhere. And many great advances follow spikes of individual and communal insight. The more you look at it, the more it appears that we are being slowly but surely manipulated over the course of thousands of years. Who would be able and motivated to do that? People from our own future would have the necessary perspective to do it. Again, though, I have no idea why. I don't have that perspective, myself.

Anyway, those are just a few of the things that tend to make me think that time travelers, and not outer-space aliens, are the answer to many of the questions arising from the fleeting sightings, odd coincidences, strange anomalies around major historical events, and so on. Space and time are the same thing, though, so these stealthy manipulators might qualify as "alien," but they really aren't. They are different from us, in terms of perspective, and possibly chosen design.

But who else would be as interested in us, other than ourselves? If nothing else, we have no shortage of ego.

Originally posted by Enkidu
* We know people exist. That's something we can't say for aliens.

I'd say that the existence of aliens is more likely than the existence of time travel, though. Simply because aliens don't have to violate any known physics or have HUGE amounts of energy to just exist.

Originally posted by Enkidu
* Continued lack of convincing physical evidence. UFOs and aliens sure are good at covering their tracks

I wouldn't construe this as evidence for anything at all. This would be like saying that unicorns are certainly as magical as we thought, as evidenced by the fact that they manage to hide so effectively. I mean, they must be REALLY powerful!

Originally posted by Enkidu
* General non-interference. ...The chance of ruining their own future existence might be a good reason why.

Not likely.. You mention that them leaving behind only blurry, crappy photos as evidence would leave their timeline intact. It would do no such thing. A few of those photos may be all that is needed for one person in this very forum to CHANGE the direction of their life in a way they thought was minor. Perhaps as a result, they attend a UFO seminar where they meet their future wife. They have kids and the descendents of those kids end up doing major things in the far future. ANYthing a time traveller would do would radically change the far future. Unless timelines split, and then all bets are off as to why they'd even bother.

Originally posted by Sophismata

Originally posted by Enkidu
* We know people exist. That's something we can't say for aliens.

I'd say that the existence of aliens is more likely than the existence of time travel, though. Simply because aliens don't have to violate any known physics or have HUGE amounts of energy to just exist.

If they existed, or exist. On the other other hand, as I said, we already know we exist. We're learing exponentially how to generate energy. Just give us a thousand years. Maybe we'll figure out how to do it without having to use electromagnetic energy. Amplification of "psychic" energy? I don't know.

Originally posted by Enkidu
* Continued lack of convincing physical evidence. UFOs and aliens sure are good at covering their tracks

I wouldn't construe this as evidence for anything at all. This would be like saying that unicorns are certainly as magical as we thought, as evidenced by the fact that they manage to hide so effectively. I mean, they must be REALLY powerful!

I suppose I should have clarified that the lack of good evidence is suspicious in the overall context of UFO sightings, of which there are many and varied. If we saw as many unicorns as we do UFOs, it would be just as suspicious not to find any unicorn poop.

Originally posted by Enkidu
* General non-interference. ...The chance of ruining their own future existence might be a good reason why.

Not likely.. You mention that them leaving behind only blurry, crappy photos as evidence would leave their timeline intact. [...] Unless timelines split, and then all bets are off as to why they'd even bother.

I understand the philosophical reasoning behind the "Butterfly Effect," (not the bad Ashton Kutcher movie), but I've never seen it proven in real life. The opposite effect, something like a "Foundation" effect, or "psychohistory," suggests that smaller, individual actions are influenced or generated by larger social effects and the specifics aren't that consequential. For instance, Alexander Graham Bell and Elisha Gray working separately both went to the US Patent Office on the same day with telephones. Bell got there a few hours before Gray. If you go back in time and kill Hitler's mother before he was born, somebody just like Hitler would probably appear in his place and do the same amount of damage.

So maybe working in the timeline isn't as risky as it first sounds. At least not on an overall, historical level. As to why they would bother, I don't know. Because of the risk, individually big but societally small, I can only assume it's something really important.

Just speculating from what we know already, rather than adding the big, hypothetical "alien" into the mix.

Excellent theory Enkidu. It was kind of a 'duh' moment for me....we're 100% certain we exist.

The grandfather effect, where someone goes back in time and messes up grampa's meeting with gramma, effectively destroying the future, can be avoided by theorizing alternate branches of time and history.

Regardless of what is changed in the past by a timetraveler, this future remains the same. The only effect is a different timeline...co-existing with this one....continuing on.

Originally posted by NotClever
Regardless of what is changed in the past by a timetraveler, this future remains the same. The only effect is a different timeline...co-existing with this one....continuing on.

That's all well and good, in theory. But how come I only consciously experience ONE seemingly relatively consistent life? What about billions of other "mes" floating around?

I'm trying to keep this speculation as based on what I know and experience first-hand, as much as possible. I don't personally know anything about alternate timelines. I do know that I exist in this one, and have no personal knowledge of any others, so for now I'm just going to say that there's only one timeline. And if somebody goes back in time and kills my grandfather, I individually cease to exist. I never existed. However, somebody a lot like me will exist, and type these same kinds of things into this forum.

Actually, I think there's something really wrong with looking at time as a "line," and that it might be more accurate to see it kind of like an electron energy shell. Kind of. If I can even get my brain to wrap around a concept like that.

You need to ask yourself is intellectual life that exist in the Universe with it's seemingly endless galaxies that rare. Think about plant an animal life. Human nature and our technology is a natural process of nature. In only the past 100 years we have jet airplanes and have created craft that go into outer space. If an advanced alien race was observing the planet Earth not wanting to interfere with our development of course they would not reveal themselves to the general population. You would have UFO sightings and government secrecy. People need to realize that a creature similar to our intelligence can also observe the political climate on Earth. They are not dumb animals or "bring me to your leader" sci-fi characters nor do they revolve around us in some covert soap opera like some people have speculated. We may be viewed as primitive and war like. The fact is advanced civilizations that can develop technology to travel space may be rare but not that unusual.

As someone already stated in this thread, time travel into alternate timelines is quite possible, if only theoretically. Some feel that that is the only way that it can be done at all. You can't change your own history or timeline in any way, shape or form.

After the atomic bombs were dropped on Japan in 1945, there was a large UFO flap around US military installations. Abductees reported that their Zetan-alien captors did not want this world to [once again] develop nuclear weapons.

No surprise there. It's hard to run a discreet farm when the animals have the audacity to make weapons that can challenge your subtle (and sometimes not-so-subtle) domination.

Knowing how the Zetans work in taking what they want without asking (including us when they can), it is not much of a stretch that they would change history and prevent the Manhattan Project from happening in the first place if it were in their power to do so

Since the Manhattan Project was not prevented or thwarted in any way, it points to the aliens not having time travel capability.

Which is a good thing considering they are not Service-To-Other (STO) oriented but Service-To-Self (STS) beings.

[edit on 5-5-2006 by Paul_Richard]

It could be that both exist. Certainly, the idea that advanced future humans might be the source of the ufo sightings, etc., has a lot to support it. They may not even need to be timetravellers. What if they are survivors from some multi million year old human race that has learned to become extremely cautious and stealthy in order to maximize their survivability? They could live underground, and the entries could be holographically cloaked to hide them. That technology is almost a reality today, far closer than timetravel. It would explain the thousands of out of place artifacts, (OOParts), as well. It also explains the existence of certain ancient megalithic structures that are so massive, precise, and/or complex as to be beyond the ability of primitive people to design and construct. Humanoid 'aliens' seem more likely to be earth based by their very design.
It is also possible that there are ET's here. There are enough ancient accounts and modern witnesses to at least open the door to that possibility. The Pleiadies, Sirius, Orion, etc. all appear to come up over and over in these accounts.
Reality is stranger than fiction, that is my firm belief. I have had a number of experiences in my own past that eventually convinced me that time is not linear. People can see the future, and linear time does not explain that to my satisfaction. If I had not had precognitive dreams on occasion, I never would have questioned linear time, but half a dozen of them over 35 years forced me to re-evaluated my concept of time. My current theory is that linear time is an arbitrary construct, and in reality, the present moment contains all of time, and is the only time that exists.
Here is a link that I found thought provoking, farfetched as it may sound. It is an interview with a terrestrial reptiloid female, who tells of numerous aliens life forms, and a far longer history of earth habitation than previously imagined. If it is fiction, it is still worth reading.

www.sabon.org...

Originally posted by moog synthesizer
The fact is advanced civilizations that can develop technology to travel space may be rare but not that unusual.

I don't know. As I mentioned in another thread, space is not friendly to life. And our own development came about due to a set of circumstances so peculiar and happenstance that we may, indeed, be the only game in town. Some people use the Drake Equation to estimate a potential 10,000 advanced civilizations in our own galaxy, but even if one of the Drake variables is zero, then the total is zero. Naturally, we have barely begun to explore our cosmic neighborhood, so our sample of available worlds is still relatively small. Even so, we have no evidence of ET life. What we do have, however, is knowledge of our own life and our own cleverness. If I was going to place a bet on what these UFO things and people are, I think it would be better - at this point, anyway - to go with what we know, rather than betting on "aliens," which are a completely unknown and possibly non-existent explanation.

We are natural therefore technology is also natural.
In nature you observe similar traits in animals, insects like two eyes, a mouth, arms and legs.
Homo sapiens began to walk up right as we evolved and became more complex. You can easily rationalize if the Universe is teaming with life because you have many star systems, planets, galaxies that Intellectual life would evolve with a similar humanoid appearance. Of course the gravity on that planet may not be exactly the same nor the atmosphere but intellectual life would have developed with the rise and fall civilizations and they would have adapted to traveling space as they became more advanced with technology. I nature life adapts to a new environment and evolves. Some species become extinct when they fail to evolve and adapt. And here we are polluting the Earth with oil and not rising to our potential.

We went to the moon using primitive technology and a little more than half a century before that considered flight impossible. Now we are delving in to nano technology, super computers, advanced physics. All that would have seemed like witchcraft or magic several hundred years ago. Therefore it is more plausible the Universe is teaming with intellectual life, some more advanced than us. We are viewed as primitive and war like. There is no reason to scare such a population with nuclear weapons that can panic and destroy themselves. So aliens in space ships traveling the cosmos is really not that far fetched. It took a long time for caucasian Europeans to not be afraid of an Africans or American Indians. The same is true for aliens. What we call an ET or an alien is just another aspect of nature. They are not demons, angels, time travelers, or have a biblical agenda because the Universe must revolve around the Human race because from our perspective we are the most important. No, we are just more primitive, modern primates to them. We must look like naked apes that are more complex then a chimpanzee in a process of development.

I LOVE THIS FORUM... IM HOOKED..THISA IS ONE OF MY FAV THREADS..SPARKS THE MIND.

Originally posted by Enkidu
Some people use the Drake Equation to estimate a potential 10,000 advanced civilizations in our own galaxy, but even if one of the Drake variables is zero, then the total is zero.

so that means we cant travel space either right?

sorry bud, i disagree

we are a spacefaring civilization

taking our first steps,yes , but certainly space travelers we are

or what...are you suggesting the whole NASA thing is a hoax?

i beg to differ

No, I think Enkidu is pointing out how the Drake Equation is based on a large set of assumptions. If just one of those assumptions is badly wrong, the results of the equation can just as well turn out to be 'zero', '1', or some other tiny quantity that, considering the size of the known universe, would be the equivalent of an extremely small needle in a gargantuan haystack.

I think you may be stretching the definition of 'spacefaring' a bit. Our tiny steps into the cosmos has none of the ordinariness (I think I just made that word up), of earlier civilizations and their exploitation of the seas for travel. I would submit that a permanently manned outpost on a naturally occuring satellite somewhere in this solar system would qualify our species as 'spacefaring'.

My .02.

i am not stretching the definition of "spacefaring"

Noun 1. spacefaring - a voyage outside the Earth's atmosphere

www.thefreedictionary.com...

looks like your trying to change accepted language definitions to fit your belief that drakes equation can actually equal zero, or that it is sound math to plug a zero into it

has human kind ever left earth's atmosphere?
all it takes is a simple yes / no

looks to me like i have proof the Worst possible outcome of drake's equation is 1
Zero is 100% impossible

hehe

Please, let's not get off track here guys...

In my own way, I agree with you Enkidu. I think that time travel might be one of the strongest possibilities that could explain so many sightings throughout human history. Either that or hyperdimensional beings that want nothing else but to "see" us. Maybe we are to them as ants are to us? Ants are a mysterious bunch, some people stare at anthills for plain curiousity. I'm just thinking out loud here, but my personal belief is that they come from other dimensions/layers ... Are they friendly, foe, neutral? I don't know ... but as long as they don't mess around with us, I don't really care.

As for violating our airspace, KGB reported knocking down some UFOs, didn't they? My memory is foggy. Anyways, great post there, Enkidu.

Farewell

I agree with Enkidu, and other members of ATS. We haven't reached anywhere, interms of timetravel. We have done space travel. You can say, just how Enkidu says; We know for a fact that we exist. Well, we also know for a fact that space travel exists. Not to an extent where we can land on a planet 4 lightyears away(we haven't even landed on mars), but we can do it none the less.
Now, I'm not ruling out Time travel. It may be quite possible. But I haven't ruled out UFO's either. The share size of the universe, indicates that something must be out there, whether it's simple bacteria living on a planet, to a race of intelligent beings bending space to study their universe.
These are all theories, some theories may be entirely wrong, while others hold some truth. Time will tell.

Wow ... that's amazing . I share the exact same thoughts Enkidu . I posted a topic about this once . Also it's funny you mention time travel because yesterday I spent hours reading about Time Travel . Take a look at what Wikipedia has to offer about the topic , great stuff in my opion . Specialy the part about the types of time travel .

Here's the link to anybody interested

TIME TRAVEL TOPICS RULE

You know this thought has passed my mind many times. It would make sense of alot of things that have happened in not just the UFO world but in all the world.

I have read alot about this and I will give my .02cents if you can follow my thought process.

We are speaking of time travlers and how time is but who are we to say what time is and isn't in our reality. We,humans, are in only one of the demintions out of the possible 12 that are out there currently. Think about that every time you do something there is a possible 12 reactions to it. On top of that if there are time travlers it makes sense that the orbs and crafts are not making contact currently. Sending out scouts and then seeing a larger craft is "intellegence" at work. Maybe they are recording our progress for future indevers who knows. Or maybe we are a Zoo for them and the kids are taking pictures of us.

So, if these time travlers have gotten ahold of how to manipulate all demintions of space an/or time then the possiblities of this are endless. But think of this what is time in there reality? Who says they have time at all. ( ort of like does a tree make a nose if it fall with no one around.)

Take time for example. We make time fit to what we do and how we do it and when we do it. We make "time" fit our lives to better organize it. Its what we make of it. Who said, in prehistoric time, " hey bob what time do you have." I would think these primative humans just did things until it got dark out and then came in. Why was or when was time developed is a WHAPOR of a question. Another question is if we had a big enough telescope and looked back into the universe could we see the beginning of time or would we see nothing at all? Would we still see the "big bang" happening still to this day? Amazing stuff to think about.

This is a topic I could just sit here and think about all the " TIME " no pun intended.

Guess I blew you guys away with those thoughts.

I don't believe that any race would be time traveling, and especially not back to the dawn of their own race. Main reason being the only time travel I see posible is time traveling into the future via speed of light as Einstein theororized.

Other reasons would be that if the race were to time travel(if time travel happened to be a reality), then the WHOLE race would have to time travel together being that time travel is only the reality of the one traveling. This means that if 1 or 2 members of the race travel back in time and change it they will never be going back to the same reality they left, the people they knew would be of a different dimmension and reality all together.

You can't just wake up one day and all of a sudden recieve a new technology just because a member of your race handed technology to your ancestors but the travelor would recieve new technology upon traveling back to his time in an ALT dimension now.

So.. I believe that the idea of a member handing out technology to his ancients and then returning to the future is a great theory because upon returning back to the new reality who knows how much more advanced this reality would be compared to the one he left... again thats if time travel were possible.

Edit - I would like to add somthing far out to this theory.

What if the race DID travel back in time together per say. They set a base somwhere close and bring everything they need.

What if upon doing this they also had a technology that could secretly make us smarter? Like I said, this is far out, but what IF they were sending out "ingelligent waves" per say that work just like any other wave but allows humans to pick up the wave unknowingly and helps their brain litterally grow.

Immagine if this were done... it would bring the idea of time travel to a new light.



[edit on 9-5-2006 by Techsnow]