The Great Africa HIV/AIDS Joke

Not sure exactly where this thread fits in, 'cause it's both social, political and medical of sorts... So if a mod thinks of a better place, please move it.

I’d like to share joke currently playing out in the South African courts. This is to highlight exactly how uneducated people are, and how the pending HIV/AIDS crisis is becoming more and more inevitable.

South Africa’s ex-deputy president Jacob Zuma is currently in court – charged with raping a family friend. Now if you’re wondering why he’s the ex-president, it’s because he was released of his duties last year when it came out that he is smack in the middle of a huge fraud case, millions of Rands and a controversial "arms deal" has been described as "the betrayal of the struggle against apartheid" and as "the litmus test of South Africa's commitment to democracy and good governance". The scandal has become the millstone around President Thabo Mbeki's presidency.

For more background on the case you can read countless newspaper reports:
www.thestar.co.za...

It basically comes down to this: A family friend (lady) visited Jacob Zuma at his home. They talked and later moved their conversation to his bedroom where he supposedly raped her. During the court proceedings it came out that the woman is HIV positive. Zuma denies being HIV positive (even after the sex). Also keep in mind that Zuma is a married man.
Now here are the funny parts:
1. Nowhere did anyone – not in a single SA newspaper point out the fact that Zuma committed adultery. Zuma never denied having sex with the woman. But no one questions his sexual relations outside of the marriage.
2. Zuma stated that a male that has sex with a HIV positive female stands little chance of getting infected.
3. After the sexual act Zuma took a shower to “reduce” his chances of being infected.
4. According to Zuma, he had sex with the woman without a condom, because when he realized that she “was ready for sex” he knew he couldn’t leave her like “that”. (It’s a popular believe in certain black cultures that if you don’t finish a sexual act with a woman she’ll accuse you of rape.)
5. Zuma also stated that he immediately knew the woman “wanted” sex with him because she arrived at his home with a short skirt. He believes that a short skirt is an invitation for sex. She also usually wears shorts/pants and the mere fact that she wore a skirt was an invitation.

And on thicken the HIV/AIDS plot. South Africa’s minister of Health Tshabalala-Msimang said that AIDS is not deadly, i.e. doesn’t cause death. She went further by saying that HIV/AIDS can be cured or prevented by a healthy diet. Such a diet should include garlic, fresh vegetables and olive oil.

President Thabo Mbeki once said that there is no HIV/AIDS threat. He supposedly doesn’t have a friend or family member with HIV/AIDS.

I ask you, if the leaders of South Africa have this sort of ignorant approach, is it really that strange that 1 out of 9 people are infected. Can a complete catastrophe be averted? And the scary part is that the ANC (the ruling political party of SA) wants Zuma to be the next president! These are sad days in South Africa.

Edit:Sp

[edit on 3-5-2006 by Gemwolf]

That's one of the tragedies of all this, the part that ignorance has taken. I suppose though, there's some things that people would rather not face. And the scope of AIDS/HIV in South Africa is overwheming. I read that it's much more than 1 in 9, being somewhere between 16.2 and 20 percent, depending on the study, DHS or UN. And wow, Botswana. 35 to 38.8 percent of the population is infected. It's heartbreaking. The good news is, they say things are stablizing abit. Let's hope.

When you read this about the native South Africans it's not surprising at all....
....stone-age mentality, stupidity and denial at it's finest.

umm, you realize that lots of people outside of africa, especially in teh US when Aids first broke out, were saying the same thigns no? Are they all 'stupid stone-age' people?

Originally posted by Nygdan
umm, you realize that lots of people outside of africa, especially in teh US when Aids first broke out, were saying the same thigns no? Are they all 'stupid stone-age' people?

I don't recall that. I remember us recognizing it as a sexually transmitted disease, first and foremost, after the first couple cases popped up in 1981. I remember we were worried about the way it was transmitted, before we knew condoms could help prevent the spread. We also knew it was deadly and brought about death. We knew diet had nothing to do with it. We knew it was a huge threat. We recognized it and dove into how to avoid it (not that it did any good). The world has known for 25 years that AIDS kills and it's sexually transmitted. At this point in time if you don't believe this then you are living under a rock.

I don't recall that. I remember us recognizing it as a sexually transmitted disease, first and foremost, after the first couple cases popped up in 1981. I remember we were worried about the way it was transmitted, before we knew condoms could help prevent the spread. We also knew it was deadly and brought about death. We knew diet had nothing to do with it. We knew it was a huge threat. We recognized it and dove into how to avoid it (not that it did any good). The world has known for 25 years that AIDS kills and it's sexually transmitted. At this point in time if you don't believe this then you are living under a rock.

Really? I don't recall that. I recall it being treated as a homosexual disease that us heterosexuals don't need to worry about, thus we could keep having unprotected sex.

Sounds to me like zerotolerance just has an axe to grind against blacks and/or Africa.

~Mariella

[edit on 5/3/2006 by bsl4doc]

Put your race card away. I don't care if they're purple, pink or zebra-striped people living in Africa, the North Pole or the Yucatan. They've chosen to ignore the facts, plain and simple. I recall reading that it was a disease that first reared itself in the gay community. Remember when it first hit they called it ARC and even GRID, not AIDS. Yes, it was thought to be exclusively homosexual, but that was because they were the only people in the US who had it rampantly popping up among their culture (a direct result of high promiscuity rates). You gonna tell me I have an axe to grind against gays too? I don't. These Africans have been told a thousand times, time and again, how to avoid catching this, but do they listen? No. So they die. There is a huge trend in the gay community to ignore the worry and enjoy "barebacking" again (sex without condoms). This is stupidity. This is suicide. This is tempting your fate and risking death. Again, stupidity ("I'm willing to risk my life for an orgasm"). I don't care if you're gay, straight, African or American...ignoring what the medical community has found out to avoid transmission is sheer lunacy, whatever color you are.

mod edit: removed quote from previous post

[edit on 4-5-2006 by sanctum]

Put your race card away. I don't care if they're purple, pink or zebra-striped people living in Africa, the North Pole or the Yucatan. They've chosen to ignore the facts, plain and simple.

You're right, all those children born with AIDS due to their mother's mistakes are being ignorant. Considering tey make up the majority of new AIDS cases, how could those unborn children be so stupid?? /sarcasm

I recall reading that it was a disease that first reared itself in the gay community. Remember when it first hit they called it ARC and even GRID, not AIDS. Yes, it was thought to be exclusively homosexual, but that was because they were the only people in the US who had it rampantly popping up among their culture (a direct result of high promiscuity rates). You gonna tell me I have an axe to grind against gays too? I don't.

There is a plethora of information now that shows AIDS cases were pretty much all over the place PRIOR to the explosion of AIDS in the gay community. There were many documented cases in the 1960s and 70s due to IV drug use that, due to pathology, are now known to be AIDS.

These Africans have been told a thousand times, time and again, how to avoid catching this, but do they listen? No. So they die.

Do you realize that we over here in the EU have been telling the AMA and other American docs to push lower calorie diets and more exercise in your country, and I know for a fact that have put ads out to this effect as well as doctor recommendations, and yet you continue to eat yourself to a diabetes and heart disease epidemic. So, do you see now how hard it is to change something ingrained into a culture? You can't just tell someone "Your culture is wrong, be more like us, NOW!" I mean, how has that worked for you guys over in Iraq?

There is a huge trend in the gay community to ignore the worry and enjoy "barebacking" again (sex without condoms). This is stupidity. This is suicide. This is tempting your fate and risking death. Again, stupidity ("I'm willing to risk my life for an orgasm").

Really? Several of my colleagues are gay, and I highly doubt they do this. I may even ask them about it frankly and see. I think you're just blowing anecdotal hot air.

~Mariella

Originally posted by bsl4doc

There is a huge trend in the gay community to ignore the worry and enjoy "barebacking" again (sex without condoms). This is stupidity. This is suicide. This is tempting your fate and risking death. Again, stupidity ("I'm willing to risk my life for an orgasm").

Really? Several of my colleagues are gay, and I highly doubt they do this. I may even ask them about it frankly and see. I think you're just blowing anecdotal hot air.

I can vouch for that. (And I don't want to turn this into another gay-bashing-thread). I'm gay myself, and have a long list of gay friends. Not a single gay person I personally know would ever risk their lives for sex. If you think homosexual people are that stupid or shallow to "risk life for an orgasm", you're gravely mistaken.

Back to the topic at hand - we can argue that it’s all culture based... But our minister of Health (and Safety) Tshabalala-Msimang is a (supposed) medical doctor... If you look at her academic qualifications:

BA degree, University of Fort Hare (1959 - 1961).
First Leningrad Medical Institute, Union of Soviet Socialist Republic (USSR) (1962 - 1969).
Diploma in Obstetrics and Gynaecology, University of Dar Es Salaam Medical School, Tanzania (1972).
Masters degree in Public Health, University of Antwerp, Belgium (1980).


One would expect that she's educated well enough not to make such ridiculous statements or that her scientific background will force her to look beyond her culture. Yet, she's just as uninformed as the rest.

Alas, ignorance and disinformation about HIV and AIDS are by no means confined to the African continent. They are right here on ATS, on this thread and elsewhere.

Denying ignorance is one thing; eradicating it is quite another.

I find it funny how still some think HIV cannot turn into AIDS. I just happen to know a guy who got HIV from a lady which later developed into AIDS after about 3 years. The guy takes like a pile of pills multiple times a day and his immune system is giving out.

HIV does not cause AIDS it mutates into AIDS. Men can get it from women to say anything less is being foolish.

Originally posted by Astyanax
You mean vitamin supplements and greens won't cure 'em?
Alas, ignorance and disinformation about HIV and AIDS are by no means confined to the African continent. They are right here on ATS, on this thread and elsewhere.

Denying ignorance is one thing; eradicating it is quite another.

*sighs* You tell me how people are supposed to take their drug cocktail without clean water and regular healthy food? I noticed you didnt mention the antibiotics bit

The World Health Organization and Unicef are altering their drug advice in line with the Lancet study.

I dont understand, do you believe that a healthy diet with clean water and access to appropiate medication, for instance antibiotics, is NOT going to help people? Thats a bit mad that is.

Deny ignorance indeed, seems you have some catching up to do, WHO and Unicef have altered their drug advice, you should too ^^

Originally posted by bsl4doc
You're right, all those children born with AIDS due to their mother's mistakes are being ignorant. Considering tey make up the majority of new AIDS cases, how could those unborn children be so stupid?? /sarcasm

Get a grip and quit throwing "spin" my way. The mother's mistakes (yes, mistakes) are ignorant, NOT the children. And unfortunately the children suffer the consequence of the mothers' ignorance, lack of responsibilty, and self-centeredness. I call it unfortunate "collateral damage". If a parent passes it on to a kid it's the parents fault. Period.

Originally posted by bsl4doc
Do you realize that we over here in the EU have been telling the AMA and other American docs to push lower calorie diets and more exercise in your country, and I know for a fact that have put ads out to this effect as well as doctor recommendations, and yet you continue to eat yourself to a diabetes and heart disease epidemic.

You're not talking to me here. I'm at Bally's 4 days a week after work. I'm 6', 180 lbs, zero bodyfat, I don't eat junk food and have been bodybuilding since 1988. If you want to sit around and eat junk food and be a couch potato go for it....but don't cry to me when you stroke or heart attack. I know better. And I didn't need the EU to tell me how to live.

Originally posted by bsl4doc
Really? Several of my colleagues are gay, and I highly doubt they do this. I may even ask them about it frankly and see. I think you're just blowing anecdotal hot air.

If they do they'll never admit it to you.....trust me, I'm gay!

Originally posted by Gemwolf
Not a single gay person I personally know would ever risk their lives for sex. If you think homosexual people are that stupid or shallow to "risk life for an orgasm", you're gravely mistaken.

Gimme a break. Certain sectors of the gay community this is more prevalent: especially the leather community. They are the biggest whores in the gay community and you and I know it. I'm not bashing, I'm one of you (just a tad more enlightened). I'm gay too, bud! Came out at 19 (I'm 42 now). Are you in denial? Living under a rock? I can give you lists of men's names that died of AIDS because they couldn't resist an orgasm if it meant saving their lives. I know lot's of guys who are willing to settle with HIV+ partners knowing they are putting themselves at risk (condom or no condom) but do it anyway because they're caught up in the rush of lust and infatuation ("I'm in love."...yeah right, at least until the sexual fires burn down and then it's on to a new man). Yes, I am gay. Yes, I know many foolish, stupid, shallow gay men who are willing to put their lives on the line for and "risk life for an orgasm". many of them are dead or dying now. And it was their choice. Stupid choice. No, I am not gravely mistaken. You are in denial like so many others befre you who are dead. I've been to enough gay parties, bars, benefits, social get togethers, pride festivals, raves, etc. and met every kind of gay man from every walk of life. I've found it doesn't matter if you're a doctor, a judge, a construction worker, a trash collector, an artist of any age. Irresponsibility runs rampant among gay men as does promiscuity. You're just anoher gay man who can't handle the truth about his own community and won't admit it's shortcomings.

Any gay man that comes down with an HIV+ status in this day and age, knowing full well how to avoid catching the virus is an irresponsible idiot IMHO. This is the truth and you cannot refute it.

Here: read all the dumb, lame, selfish, inexcusable reasons gay men bareback knowing they could risk HIV infection. Keep in mind every single gay man that ever died of AIDS (who was in a relationship) "trusted" his partner. So much for trust..... without trust love cannot exist...without love, why get involved?

www.thebody.com...

quote: Originally posted by bsl4doc
Do you realize that we over here in the EU have been telling the AMA and other American docs to push lower calorie diets and more exercise in your country, and I know for a fact that have put ads out to this effect as well as doctor recommendations, and yet you continue to eat yourself to a diabetes and heart disease epidemic.


You're not talking to me here. I'm at Bally's 4 days a week after work. I'm 6', 180 lbs, zero bodyfat, I don't eat junk food and have been bodybuilding since 1988. If you want to sit around and eat junk food and be a couch potato go for it....but don't cry to me when you stroke or heart attack. I know better. And I didn't need the EU to tell me how to live.

Please refer to the recent CNN study showing the Americans have a higher rate of diabetes and obesity related health issues.

Gimme a break. Certain sectors of the gay community this is more prevalent: especially the leather community. They are the biggest whores in the gay community and you and I know it.

Ok, so you're taking a VERY small percentage of the gay community, and then saying that what they do is a "significant trend" in the gay community? Wow, you must take your spin skills from Bill O'Reilly.

~Mariella

Originally posted by Astyanax
Alas, ignorance and disinformation about HIV and AIDS are by no means confined to the African continent. They are right here on ATS, on this thread and elsewhere.

Denying ignorance is one thing; eradicating it is quite another.

What a Laughable non-sequitur, doubting the cause of AIDS doesn't mean denying the existance of AIDS, of course saying this will greatly limit your show value, so you chose the flashy way. do you honestly believe people posting in one thread won't read anything else?

Originally posted by bsl4doc
Please refer to the recent CNN study showing the Americans have a higher rate of diabetes and obesity related health issues.

Yeah, so what?
CNN??? Don't you mean the National Enquirer of network news?
And even if it's true (and I wouldn't doubt it). They're not talking about me.
And, who cares?????? What's your point?

Originally posted by bsl4doc
Ok, so you're taking a VERY small percentage of the gay community, and then saying that what they do is a "significant trend" in the gay community? Wow, you must take your spin skills from Bill O'Reilly.

You didn't read my link, did you? Not a small percentage at all. Did you follow my link? Cause it will blow your mind if you do. This site covers all gay men dealing with this issue (all), not just one sector. It's a gay sponsored site for crying out loud. You have no idea because your not gay and you haven't a clue to what's going on in the gay community. As far as I'm concerned you speak from ignorance on this subject. You need to follow my link. This is what is going on today in the gay community. This trend is seeping into every subsector of gay culture. I happened to notice it mainly in the leather culture because these are the guys who are gravitating towards this practice the most....they are also the sector that AIDS devastated the most. Why? Because the vast majority of them will sleep with anything that has a hole, pole and a heartbeat....they lack virtue, discretion, self-control, and embrace the "do it if it feels good/sexual excess lifestyle"....which leads to their self-destruction.

P.S. - No, I am not an angel.....but at 42 I've seen alot....let me tell you.

Originally posted by zerotolerance

Originally posted by bsl4doc
Please refer to the recent CNN study showing the Americans have a higher rate of diabetes and obesity related health issues.

Yeah, so what?
CNN??? Don't you mean the National Enquirer of network news?
And even if it's true (and I wouldn't doubt it). They're not talking about me.
And, who cares?????? What's your point?

I was pointing out how trying to change the entire American eating culture is just as impossible as changing the entire African culture. That point was obviously beyond you.

You didn't read my link, did you?

Yes, I did read it, and I browsed the site in general. No where on it does it give a number, statistic, or even a hint of a figure about how many men engage in this activity or if it is as prevalent as you say it is.

This site covers all gay men dealing with this issue (all), not just one sector.

It covers all gay men? Every single one in every nation? Wow, that's quite a feat. And also incorrect.

It's a gay sponsored site for crying out loud. You have no idea because your not gay and you haven't a clue to what's going on in the gay community. As far as I'm concerned you speak from ignorance on this subject.

Ah, I love this argument. I can't make a judgement because I'm not part of the community. Well, tell you what, from now on, you are no longer allowed to vote in anything regarding abortion or women's rights, because you are not a woman. You are also not allowed to vote in anything that is regarding schools because you have no children, and you are also not allowed to have any say in anything medical related on this board because you are not a medical student/doctor, as I am. See how ridiculous your logic is here?

~Mariella

Originally posted by bsl4doc
That point was obviously beyond you.

LOL!

Originally posted by bsl4doc
........I browsed the site in general. No where on it does it give a number, statistic, or even a hint of a figure about how many men engage in this activity or if it is as prevalent as you say it is.

Browsed....that's what I assumed. Why do you need figures, numbers, statistics? Well, it'll never be accurate anyway because most gay men who live sexual lifestyles like this won't admit it to the world. To their buddies they'll admit it, but not to you, your Mom or some guy taking a poll.

Originally posted by bsl4doc
It covers all gay men? Every single one in every nation? Wow, that's quite a feat. And also incorrect.

The vast majority....do you know what the word majority means?

It's a gay sponsored site for crying out loud. You have no idea because your not gay and you haven't a clue to what's going on in the gay community. As far as I'm concerned you speak from ignorance on this subject.

Originally posted by bsl4doc
Ah, I love this argument. I can't make a judgement because I'm not part of the community.

No, you can make a judgement, but because you don't live that life your opinion is nil based on lack of constant exposure and experience in dealing with many gay men of every shape and size.
Sorry, but for lack of a better word, you are "inexperienced" in that lifestyle..

Originally posted by bsl4doc
Well, tell you what, from now on, you are no longer allowed to vote in anything regarding abortion or women's rights, because you are not a woman. You are also not allowed to vote in anything that is regarding schools because you have no children, and you are also not allowed to have any say in anything medical related on this board because you are not a medical student/doctor, as I am. See how ridiculous your logic is here?

You're absolutely right. Finally! I truly have no valued opinion on abortion, medicine, women's rights, schools (although I went for 16 years - I think I deserve the right here). These are things I know very little about so I know it's best to be wise and keep my mouth shut....just as you should regarding gay men and their lifestyles. Stick to what you know and I'll stick to what I know.

You're absolutely right. Finally! I truly have no valued opinion on abortion, medicine, women's rights, schools (although I went for 16 years - I think I deserve the right here). These are things I know very little about so I know it's best to be wise and keep my mouth shut....just as you should regarding gay men and their lifestyles. Stick to what you know and I'll stick to what I know.

Not a problem at all. Since I am not gay, I won't address that topic anymore. But, I DO work in a public health hospital, and worked with many HIV+ patients, and am 6 months (!!) from being an MD, whereas you are not. So, if you would kindly refrain from making any statements whatsoever regarding medicine or public health, I assume we'll both be even.

~Mariella