The US is a superpower?

Luda:

The US is the largest player in the global economy, what would happen if the US hit another depression, it would go global, and no other country can afford to see it happen than the US herself can, its not arrogance, its a simple fact
The US is the largest player in the global economy, what would happen if the US hit another depression, it would go global, and no other country can afford to see it happen than the US herself can, its not arrogance, its a simple fact.

? If the USA goes into a depression the world will be just fine. Already the US economy has been shrinking, and India’s and China’s have been growing really fast.

The US consumes FAR more than it produces, and the biggest problem would be that some countries would end up having a lot of surplus (things that they normally sell to the US). It might impact their economies in the short-term, but long-term, not much impact.

I’d give the USA MAYBE 50 years more as a superpower, then China and India will eclipse it.


[edit on 10-5-2006 by Jakomo]

Im not sure what you are talking about when you say 12 million people killed mushroom, but about our asses getting "handed" too us i dont think that is that right. In korea, vietnam and iraq we were fighting a so-called real army, practicing normal combat. If the US decided to go total war and just dominate the country, yeah insurgency is over, but i do not think they would do that because of the reprocussions they will face. And i think if the kill ratio of a country is over 3:1, i dont think we got our asses handed to us

You'll see, when we finally vote a democrat in there 2 years from now and get our surplus back, you'll see some good ole fashion Superpowerin!!!!!

posted by magicmushroom

Hello Don
Do you believe the US is a superpower? The US was brought to a standstill in Korea. You were thrashed in Vietnam, both supplied by the Chinese. Iraq is ½ US, ½ Brits and others so where is this rubbish we did it our way . . don’t say you won WW1 or WW2 because you did not. [Edited by Don W]

1) Korea. The War started in June, and by November, we were standing on the Yalu River. NK was done as a military power. China’s entry was unexpected and in large numbers. America was willing to accept a return to the pre-June border.
2) Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh epitomized the nationalistic spirit of the Vietnamese people. America mistakenly took up the defeated French cause thinking a Communist Vietnam would threaten SE Asia. Hindsight showed that theory was wrong.
3) War 1 had stalemated because both sides had suffered horrendous losses of young men of their respective countries. 1/3rd of marriageable age Frenchmen died in War 1. The arrival of 1.2 million Americans and more coming, showed the Cental Powers they were finished. Without the Americans, the war might have dragged on for years before everyone just quit.
4) Over half of the warplanes produced in the world from 1941 to 1945 were made in the US. The US built enough transport ships to supply the Allies around the world. We built more warships than existed in the world in 1941. We built more tanks than the Axis powers combined. We supplied the USSR with much needed food, clothes, medicines, transport equipment and munitions from 1942 to 1945. We sent a significant number - 6,000 - of P39 and P63 aircraft. The US built 3 atom bombs, tested 1 and used 2.

America did in fact WIN the WW2.

The trouble with some Americans is your comments show you think killing and robbing people can be a just cause. America is a global terrorist and will be made to pay for its actions. Your country is teetering on the edge of a financial abyss. China, even the EU is outstripping you globally.

The US GDP is $14T. China’s is $6T. Japan, #3, is about $4T. China’s population is 1.3 B. 4 X + ours at 300 M. The EU constitution vote failed last year. China has reported over 46,000 civil disturbances, mainly in the interior which is not sharing the prosperity of the coastal region. China has its own troubles. The EU is facing a crisis and add Turkey into the mix, they will be busy with their problems. Putin is becoming the strongman of the Russian Republic. Not a Stalin but also, not a Gorbachev.

There is a difference between capability and competence . . remember that ghost the Vietnam war. You were a superpower then and were trying to stem the spread of communism and you failed miserably.

M/M, you overlooked the 1989-1991 time frame when the old USSR dissolved. The US was certainly a major factor in the failure of that system.

Oh and by the way before you mention 9/11, the alleged highjackers were Saudis so why did you invade Iraq and not Saudi Arabia.

I’m unusual in that I do not see the Nine Eleven Event as a watershed incident. Tragic, yes, serious, no. It was ballyhooed all out of proportion by a president desperate to save his failing presidency. War trumps Economy. It worked for him. In 2002 and 2005. Now Iran is being puffed up for the 2006 election. We will get over it, in a few more years.

And mentioning Iraq maybe you will believe it you know like that idiot Bush telling you Iraq was responsible for 9/11.

No, not all Americans ever believed that. I posted elsewhere there were No WMDs from day 1. No connection to al Qaeda. But that’s me. The Bush GWOT ought to be a lesson for everyone how important selecting good leaders really is and how luck plays a large role. America was lucky to have FDR in 1941, but unlucky to have Geo W Bush in 2001. We are suffering and have more to come.

God help you when the Chinese start with you, then you can sing I did it my way all the way to your bomb shelter. Wake up Don and all similar thinkers . .

I’ve posted here that China is not an aggressing country. Their PLA is for internal order. Not external adventures. It is unfortunately a truism that if you have it, you’re likely to use it. China has warned the US that it will, in due time, recover Taiwan. I believe that. I hope our leaders will go peacefully in the night when China comes.

Life is about peace and harmony . . they send the cannon fodder to do their dirty work . . Is another major war going to may you happy, richer, feel better or superior?

No.



[edit on 5/10/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Furthermore, Paul Craig Roberts is a columnist and far from an International Relations expert or scholar, thus IMHO, making his assertions simply meaningless and apart of an agenda, which when one looks at the articles that he has written, becomes glaringly apparent.

I know this is not germane to the topic, however...you could hardly be further from the truth, seekerof. Now that I've laughed hysterically for the last ten minutes and have calmed down, I will give you some information to chew on. Paul Craig Roberts is an internationally known scholar and political economist. He's listed in the Who's Who, and is a Senior Research Fellow at the Hoover Institute at Stanford University.

excerpt:
He was Distinguished Fellow at the Cato Institute from 1993 to 1996. From 1982 through 1993, he held the William E. Simon Chair in Political Economy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. During 1981-82 he served as Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy. President Reagan and Treasury Secretary Regan credited him with a major role in the Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981, and he was awarded the Treasury Department’s Meritorious Service Award for "his outstanding contributions to the formulation of United States economic policy." From 1975 to 1978, Dr. Roberts served on the congressional staff where he drafted the Kemp-Roth bill and played a leading role in developing bipartisan supportfor a supply-side economic policy...

(italics are mine)
more from same source:
Dr. Roberts was educated at the Georgia Institute of Technology (B.S.), the University of Virginia (Ph.D.), the University of California at Berkeley and Oxford University where he was a member of Merton College.

He is listed in Who’s Who in America, Who’s Who in the World, The Dictionary of International Biography, Outstanding People of the Twentieth Century, and 1000 Leaders of World Influence.

www.vdare.com...

He is a serious heavyweight who has helped to develop economic policies that have had international impact. He probably knows more about international relations and more to the point, economics (which is what this discussion is about, mostly, right?) than most people alive in America today.

Now, as to the topic at hand - I have to agree with PCR. The Iranian Bourse just opened a few weeks ago and already the dollar is falling rapidly due to oil being bought in Euros. China holds so much of our debt, that they have already started to dump alot of dollars, something like 15% to 25% ? (I think that's the right amount) of their dollars have been dumped.

Every empire comes to an end sooner or later...

You guys seriously have got to be kidding me if you actualyl think the U.S. is in decline as a superpower. People have been saying that for decades. The United States economy sent the world into a depression when the Great Depression happened. When 9/11 happened, it sent the world economy into a downward spiral for awhile. If the U.S. economy went into a serious depression, it would have serious repercussions worldwide.

As for China, I do not know why people seem to think the U.S. is at the mercy of the Chinese. Without the United States, the Chiense economy would collapse. Without the Chinese, the U.S. economy would keep going, but be damaged severely.

I would give the U.S. a heck of a lot longer than 50 years. China has a looooong way to go before eclipsing the U.S. China is not as spick-and-span as the media would like you to believe, there is a lot of internal turmoil going on in China at the moment.

As for the U.S. being a superpower, more like super-super power is the term. Never before in history has a nation been so influential and powerful militarily, economically, politically, and culturally. American culture affects the world over, people in other countries complain about their kids learning American English even. The U.S. economy affects the world. The U.S. gov't will intervene with other nations' affairs if they affect the welfare of the U.S., not the other way around.

And then there's the U.S. military, the very symbol of the true power of this nation. The U.S. military costs more than all of the other militaries in the world combined, YET, the U.S. pours about 1% of its GDP into the military at most. The U.S. still has the best health care worldwide, the health care SYSTEM I am not sure, it was very good before Hilary Clinton tried to socialize the healthcare system and turned over the the healthcare from the medical industry to the business industry, which has screwed up a lot of things. This country, with a population of 200+ million, has better healthcare then all other nations with much smaller populations.

The U.S. economy changes around, it is highly adaptable. I would not worry, back in the 1970s people were predicting gloom-and-doom, back in the 1980s, people were predicting it, now people are predicting it again.

In 50 years, people will again be predicting the fall of the U.S. As for China, they just need to focus on feeding their people properly and cleanly. When the catering service for the movie Mission Impossible III went to China, they had to import all of the food because the conditions in China were so filthy. That country is making strides, but they have a while to go before they will ever be able to stand side-by-side with the United States. Same thing with India.

As for the U.S. economy collapsing, if that happens, the world economy collapses.

Originally posted by Mdv2
It is a superpower, but as soon as its economy collapses (which is likely to happen) it's a superpower like Russia. Then, China will take over the position of leading superpower.

Well, Russia is the only country in the world which has budget sufficit.
And a emergency special fund too.

Originally posted by Masisoar
It's just the front runner of the A-typical Super Power however the U.S. does have military supierority and a rather high GNP as compared to most of the world, its economy is growing ever so weak, with the incoming of immigrants, more jobs going overseas, more inflation, things aren't looking good.

"its economy is growing ever so weak"?

What in the hell are you taking about? Q1 US GDP came in at almost 5%. The eu will struggle to make 1% growth this year. Do you have ANY idea what you are talking about?

America has more growth (3X), a more productive work force and a lower debt burden that the eu.

Seriously, get a clue.


[edit on 11-5-2006 by El Tiante]

[edit on 11-5-2006 by El Tiante]

[edit on 11-5-2006 by El Tiante]

Originally posted by El Tiante

America has more growth (3X), a more productive work force and a lower debt burden that the eu.

Seriously, get a clue
[edit on 11-5-2006 by El Tiante]

The U.S. does not have a lower debt burden than Europe, wherever did you hear that? We are the largest debtor nation on the planet. China has already started dumping dollars now that the Iranian bourse is going and is accepting Euros which looks like it is going to become the main currency for oil. The US no longer backs our dollars with gold or silver, but oil. This is not a good sign for us. And you better believe that the rest of the world would like to see the U.S. become a non-superpower.

Originally posted by forestlady

The U.S. does not have a lower debt burden than Europe, wherever did you hear that? We are the largest debtor nation on the planet. China has already started dumping dollars now that the Iranian bourse is going and is accepting Euros which looks like it is going to become the main currency for oil. The US no longer backs our dollars with gold or silver, but oil. This is not a good sign for us. And you better believe that the rest of the world would like to see the U.S. become a non-superpower.

While America has the largest debt it also has the LARGEST GDP (and is growing at > 3x the rate of the eu's) and thus has a lower debt burden. By any commonly except measure of economic health (growth, per capita GDP, worker productivity, hours worked, etc...) America is shoveling dirt on the eu.

To be a Superpower, you need a Super economy. America has one, the eu doesn't.

Please get a clue.




Regarding the Oil Bourse, I posted this last week:]Analysts Skeptical of Iran Oil Plan but course no one replied because it's not keeping with the party line around here.


[edit on 12-5-2006 by El Tiante]



[edit on 12-5-2006 by El Tiante]

[edit on 12-5-2006 by El Tiante]

El Tiante, thank you for explaining your statement, I didn't read it that way the first time, some resource citation would ahve been helpful to make it more clear. However, there is more to being a superpower than what you are saying. We DO have the largest debt burden in the world, that is an important fact to remember.
Also, when you consider what the earmarks of a failing empire are, the U.S. has quite a few. Let's compare it to the fall of the Roman Empire for example:

-outsourcing our work/jobs to foreigners.
-Declining economic power
-Growing governmental corruption.
-Growing social chaos.
-A growing dependence on other countries for resources, i.e. oil, etc.
-Currency becoming increasingly worthless (U.S. not backed by gold/silver)
-Arrogance about being a superpower which keeps citizens/government from seeing what's actually happening.
I'm sure there were alot of Romans who thought that the empire will never fall.

And thank you very much, I do have a clue. I just see things differently from you.
Just because I don't agree with you doesnt mean I'm clueless.

Originally posted by forestlady
We DO have the largest debt burden in the world, that is an important fact to remember.
Also, when you consider what the earmarks of a failing empire are, the U.S. has quite a few. Let's compare it to the fall of the Roman Empire for example:

-outsourcing our work/jobs to foreigners.
-Declining economic power
-Growing governmental corruption.
-Growing social chaos.
-A growing dependence on other countries for resources, i.e. oil, etc.
-Currency becoming increasingly worthless (U.S. not backed by gold/silver)
-Arrogance about being a superpower which keeps citizens/government from seeing what's actually happening.
I'm sure there were alot of Romans who thought that the empire will never fall.

Ok, with regards to your reply, I’m faced with two unflattering conclusions. One, despite my clear and simple graph, you still don’t have an understanding of what a debt burden is or you cannot read a simple graph.

What is debt burden? It is NOT a country’s debt as measured in raw dollars. It IS the debt as a PERCENTAGE OF GDP. If you believe otherwise, you are wrong.

As the graph I posed clearly shows, America’s debt burden is rather low and completely manageable. In fact the present debt burden is barely half of the post WWII peak of 120% of GDP.

With regards to the rest; as of Q1 2006 America has the best performing industrial economy ON EARTH. Manufacturing as a percentage of GDP is near records. Unemployment is less that HALF of the eu.

Growing social chaos? What are you taking about? Crime rates have been headed downward for more than a decade and unemployment is near record lows.

You have not idea what you are talking about; please spend some time learning about economics an America’s economic performance before you reply.



[edit on 18-5-2006 by El Tiante]

They are capable of wiping out all life on earth.......if that doesnt make you a superpower....I dont know what does. Look at russia....they are still a power to be reckoned with and they are falling apart....no insult to the russians..they are some of the toughest people on earth.

Originally posted by Amuk
They are capable of wiping out all life on earth.......if that doesnt make you a superpower....I dont know what does. Look at russia....they are still a power to be reckoned with and they are falling apart....no insult to the russians..they are some of the toughest people on earth.

Sorry to say but we were felling apart but not anymore. Hoever superpowers like US, Russia and China will never stop being superpowers. These countries may have their peaks and downs but they never to be considered to be out of the game.

[edit on 18-5-2006 by Russian Boy]

Originally posted by Jakomo
The US consumes FAR more than it produces, and the biggest problem would be that some countries would end up having a lot of surplus (things that they normally sell to the US). It might impact their economies in the short-term, but long-term, not much impact.

Exactly the Chinese and Indians produce and we consum. We are the buyer of first and last resort. However if we were not consuming I can assure you China, India and even Europe would not be producing nearly as much. Are consumer based economy is the main reason China and India are doing so well my friend (that is outside of their own internal market reforms). We are the only ones willing to buy such large amounts of clothing, electronics or anything else anyone is willing to sell us. And believe me it would be a big deal to all those companies with all that extra inventory (i.e supply) which coupled with the drop in demand would send the prices of everything the US buys from abroad in great quantities into a tail spin. Which in turn would send the commodities market plunging into the great abyss.

This little economic effect is know as Deflation. Basically it means that the prices on goods are so low that you can't make a profit on them so you have to reduce the amount you make which means you need less material. So with you making less product you have to let people go. And since your making less your also using less material so that means the mines (coal, copper etc.) the farms (cotton for producing textiles) are also hit which means they have to layoff a significant part of their workforce. Which means you have alot of people on the streets who are hungry and probably more than a little pissed off.

In short this is now a highly inter-connected world with the US playing a central role. I know with whats been going on around the world you'd take a great deal of satisfaction seeing the US collapsing to its knees begging for forgiveness. Unfortunately my friend you may not like this but if we fall you fall. All you'd get out of a US collapse would be a rise of extremism from the left and the right throughout the world. We'd be looking at a situation similar to that faced in the thirties. Only we now have much more destructive weapons.

Originally posted by Jakomo
I’d give the USA MAYBE 50 years more as a superpower, then China and India will eclipse it.

Look everybody another Nostradamus. My friend we are a resiliant people. We've had the world highest standards of living Pre-War of Independence we lost it because of the cost of the war only to regain it within a generation. We lost it again during the Civil War only again to regain it within a generation. We lost it during the Great Depression this time we rose out if it fought a war and became the most dominant nation on the face of the earth. Believe me we have alot more staying power than you think.

Oh, cast your predictions great foreseer of the future! Just don't expect any of us Yanks to listen. We've heard it all before. Kruschev said he would bury us but as we all know now history turned out quite differently. I think a great future lies ahead and America's best days have yet too come.

Originally posted by Jakomo
Superpowers take over countries, they don't get their asses handed to them by insurgents.

Twice. East Asia or the Middle East, you call it.

Insurgents??

Please the Korean war was Insurgents Try a huge chunk of the Red army of China. N Korea alone got its butt kicked only China stepping in with huge numbers created a stalmate.

In Vietnam the VC (which were clearly a army) had the backing of a super power. They didnt have Migs and state of the art SAMs for nothing.

The Soviets lost to goat herders armed with stingers compared to forces faced in Vietnam.

And finally Iraq we aint lost and are killing way more of them then they are of us, we aint going anywhere anytime soon.. The combined death toll since the invasion began is very low compared to pretty much any real war.

[edit on 18-5-2006 by ShadowXIX]

No, because shes too dependant on almost everything from all over the Earth. If the rest of the world imposed sanctions and ceased all trade, Americans would go without bigtime and in a hard way in 3-2-1 pow.


In terms of the military, they are a force for sure but you know something, these stinking camel jockeys are proving to be a power too. They are crafty and catching allied troops with their pants down all the time. Also, China, Russia, France individually could have gone into Iraq and the results would likely parallel what we are seeing now.

Sence the invention of nuclear weapons, anyone who has them is a superpower, in a military sense. France's yeild is enough to turn all life on earth into heat and light.

I believe the true measure of a superpower is a nation who can effectivly defend themselves from an invading force and remain 100% self sustained in all facets.

By my definition there are no superpowers anymore. Just radical and very very dangerous and unstable nations

Originally posted by forestlady
I know this is not germane to the topic, however...you could hardly be further from the truth, seekerof. Now that I've laughed hysterically for the last ten minutes and have calmed down, I will give you some information to chew on. Paul Craig Roberts is an internationally known scholar and political economist. He's listed in the Who's Who, and is a Senior Research Fellow at the Hoover Institute at Stanford University.

Umm, yeah, okie dokie, well, after I stopped "hysterically" laughing "for the last ten minutes," in all your attempt to refute what I mentioned, I noticed that you failed to comprehend what I did mention, soooooooo, lets try this again, shall we? This (quoted below) is what I mentioned, perhaps this time around you will catch what type expert or scholar I was referencing, you think? And, just for you to chew on, I am also listed in "Who's Who," so basically, mentioning such was redundant, to me anyhow, for it is not hard to make "Who's Who" when one is in and among academia.

Originally quoted by seekerof
Furthermore, Paul Craig Roberts is a columnist and far from an International Relations expert or scholar, thus IMHO, making his assertions simply meaningless and apart of an agenda, which when one looks at the articles that he has written, becomes glaringly apparent.

So, forestlady, despite your misunderstanding haste to refute my mention, is Mr. Paul Craig Roberts an International Relations expert or scholar? Can you recheck your sources and let me know?


Btw, well said danwild6.






seekerof

[edit on 18-5-2006 by Seekerof]