Conspiracists who don't know they are

Is it even possible to be a conspiracist without being aware you are in a conspiracy? How would one advise such a one?

There are Christians who have joined a conspiracy of sorts who proclaim their belief in the Bible as being God's Word yet hold out on believing in it, in whatever parts and spots suits them best....for instance, the parts that say things like "...my help comes from the Lord" (Ps 121:2) but who are seeking help from doctors for "medical problems", and from mortgage companies to "lower our bills", (what a joke!) and from "better paying jobs" for that second car, and larger house.

What is the problem with any of the above? I don't know, what do you think?

Originally posted by happness
Is it even possible to be a conspiracist without being aware you are in a conspiracy?

Indeed! The biggest conspiracy we've ever been victim of is one of our own ignorant device!

How would one advise such a one?

It's impossible. One cannot see when they are blind. And when their sight is restored, they can see. You can't lend your sight or restore that of someone else--only God can remove the scales from our eyes.

There are Christians who have joined a conspiracy of sorts

and from "better paying jobs" for that second car, and larger house.

What a joke, I agree! Although it's not funny, really--it is rather ludicrous. I get e-mails all the time about 'christian debt consolidation' and stuff like that. Those are things of the world--and the bible says, plainly enough, that any soul seeking to serve in God's army can not concern himself with these sort of things--there is no need and no true profit in worldly riches.

It really doesn't say that God is going to materially reward anyone in their mortal lifetime--our time on Earth, if we truly keep our eyes upon God, is not promising as a pleasurable duration. We can't serve two masters--and serving God means serving our brothers and sisters, not ourselves and our never-ending desire for acquisition.

When do you hear anyone promoting these verses in their christian sales-pitches for christianity?

[color=#993399]...Take no thought for your life, what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor yet for your body, what you shall put on...

...provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat...

...sell all that you have, and distribute unto the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me...

...that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful...

...how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God...

...he that lays up treasure for himself is not rich toward God...

...godliness with contentment is great gain...

...we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out...

...having food and raiment let us be therewith content...

What is the problem with any of the above? I don't know, what do you think?

Because (they) say, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
(~Revelation 3:17 KJV)

Great response Queenannie---

Good to know someone else is of the mind that something is off in the "kingdom" of Christianity.

NOw let me test your tolerance a little further:

Did Jesus say that if who believes in Him will 'NEVER die"?

Why then is it taught that "we all have to die".? And why are morticians and funeral homes some small Bible belt towns biggest money makers?

Hmmm. Just my thoughts

Originally posted by happness
for instance, the parts that say things like "...my help comes from the Lord" (Ps 121:2) but who are seeking help from doctors for "medical problems", and from mortgage companies to "lower our bills", (what a joke!) and from "better paying jobs" for that second car, and larger house.

What is the problem with any of the above? I don't know, what do you think?

God can work through Drs. if He chooses to or He can bring a cure without using them.

Christians are not to build up treasures on the earth. Not all of them succeed in this.

Not really a problem here.

Originally posted by happness
NOw let me test your tolerance a little further:

Did Jesus say that if who believes in Him will 'NEVER die"?

Why then is it taught that "we all have to die".? And why are morticians and funeral homes some small Bible belt towns biggest money makers?

What that verse means is this. Everyone has to die once(but Paul lets us in on a mystery revealed to him from God. Those believers alive when Jesus returns will never die).

Hell/Lake of Fire is viewed as the 2nd DEATH. If someone accepts Christ then they will never experience the 2nd death which is a permanent everlasting one. And it's not a state of nonexistance, it's an existance seperated from God for all eternity.

Originally posted by happness
Did Jesus say that if who believes in Him will 'NEVER die"?

Yes- John 11:26. The 'believes' is more accurately translated as 'trusts' or 'puts credit in.'

Why then is it taught that "we all have to die".?

Well, we do. Physically, that is. The 'never die' Jesus was speaking about is the soul, not the physical body.

And why are morticians and funeral homes some small Bible belt towns biggest money makers?

In all towns, I would think. After all, the law makes it a necessity and so the prices seem unnecessarily jacked up.

Personally, I don't want to be pickled, placed in a box, and buried in some extravagantly wasted area of green grass and marble memorabilia. I would be most pleased if my body were allowed to re-enter the natural food chain in a timely manner. Ashes to ashes and dust to dust, you know.

Originally posted by dbrandt
What that verse means is this. Everyone has to die once(but Paul lets us in on a mystery revealed to him from God. Those believers alive when Jesus returns will never die).

You're contradicting yourself (and Paul). Either everyone has to die, or some will and some won't.

Hell/Lake of Fire is viewed as the 2nd DEATH.

'Viewed', indeed--by those who have succumbed to modern christian indoctrination. That doesn't mean that's what St. John the Revelator actually meant to convey.

First Birth: Adam was created a 'living soul.'
First Death: Adam and Eve were clothed in skin, thrown out of the garden, and their days were officially numbered. They died spiritually--no longer were they 'living souls.' They were 'dead souls' because their souls were imprisoned in bodies that were inevitably bound to die.
First Resurrection: (aka being 'reborn') which is quickening by the Holy Spirit. Once again, man becomes a 'living soul.'
Second death: Bodily death. Something we must all endure, but not all will be 'hurt' by it.

Hence:

'Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power' from Rev 20:6

If someone accepts Christ then they will never experience the 2nd death which is a permanent everlasting one. And it's not a state of nonexistance, it's an existance seperated from God for all eternity.

None of that is in the bible. It does not say, in any scripture whatsoever, that we must 'accept' Christ. Christ died so God would accept us.

We are born in this lifetime separated from God, already--we are born in the grave, so to speak--born dead souls, all of us, without exception.

And likewise, we have all, without exception, been given the gift of resurrection. Not of the body, but of the soul/spirit.

What the bible (and Paul) do say is this:

External source: KJV, Public Domain
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

(~1 Corinthians 15:20-23 KJV)

Some great stuff here, queenannie. Wish we'd get a more heavily peopled thread going on the subject.

One thing I'd like to have considered: When Scripture says "it is appointed to man once to die and then the judgment", does it mean physical death?

It is, after all, also written that in Christ we all havedied, apparently by baptism into His death.

Just my thoughts....

Originally posted by queenannie38
Personally, I don't want to be pickled, placed in a box, and buried in some extravagantly wasted area of green grass and marble memorabilia. I would be most pleased if my body were allowed to re-enter the natural food chain in a timely manner. Ashes to ashes and dust to dust, you know.

If you are serious, you can donate your body to the body farm. There it will be studied as it decomposes furthering the studies in forensic science.

Originally posted by darkelfIf you are serious, you can donate your body to the body farm. There it will be studied as it decomposes furthering the studies in forensic science.

Thanks, darkelf! I am serious, and so I truly appreciate the link. Something I hadn't thought of before but will consider now.

Originally posted by happness Wish we'd get a more heavily peopled thread going on the subject.

Without me droning on, you just might. But the bible is my favorite subject...

One thing I'd like to have considered: When Scripture says "it is appointed to man once to die and then the judgment", does it mean physical death?

I think it is the spirit/soul death, here, as well.

There are several Greek words translated 'die' in the NT--the particular one here means a dying that is a sort of separation, departure, or reversal.

Also, Paul says 'appointed man,' not 'appointed a man' or 'each man is appointed.' It
sounds like a more general 'mankind,' and so that would mean he is referring to the death of all through Adam. 'Man' is frequently used in a more higher sense than just a mortal human--somewhat of a more ethereal entity, angelic sorts, perhaps. See Revelation 21:17.

It is, after all, also written that in Christ we all havedied, apparently by baptism into His death.

Just my thoughts....

We've all died--and we shall all live. However, 'every man in his own order' (from 1Co 15:23)

Originally posted by queenannie38


None of that is in the bible. It does not say, in any scripture whatsoever, that we must 'accept' Christ.

Of course it does. We have been through this before. You are choosing to ignore this fact. This isn't about one little word accept either.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by queenannie38


None of that is in the bible. It does not say, in any scripture whatsoever, that we must 'accept' Christ.

Of course it does. We have been through this before. You are choosing to ignore this fact. This isn't about one little word accept either.

Actually you are both correct. While the Bible does not say we must accept Christ, it is suggested that we do to achieve eternal life.

Romans 6
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The gift of God was the death, burial and ressurection of Christ. We must accept this gift to achieve eternal life.

There are several Greek words translated 'die' in the NT--the particular one here means a dying that is a sort of separation, departure, or reversal.

Also, Paul says 'appointed man,' not 'appointed a man' or 'each man is appointed.' It
sounds like a more general 'mankind,' and so that would mean he is referring to the death of all through Adam. 'Man' is frequently used in a more higher sense than just a mortal human--somewhat of a more ethereal entity, angelic sorts, perhaps. See Revelation 21:17.

We've all died--and we shall all live. However, 'every man in his own order' (from 1Co 15:23)

Great points, queenannie, and I disagree witht he poster who said the Bible does say we have to "accept" Christ. It doesn't. It says "whosoever believeth in Him...". It is just that in order to believe, one must accept that He is and is Who He says He is. Else there is nothing and no one to believe in. So we in Christianity say "have you accepted Christ as your personal Savior" or words to that effect without thinking that we are implying it is a choice that is made by man rather than a "free gift of God" that we can believe into if we humble ourselves to do so.

Originally posted by happness
I disagree witht he poster who said the Bible does say we have to "accept" Christ. It doesn't. .

ac·cept ( P ) Pronunciation Key (k-spt)
v. ac·cept·ed, ac·cept·ing, ac·cepts
v. tr.
To receive (something offered), especially with gladness or approval: accepted a glass of water; accepted their contract.

John 1:11-12
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as RECEIVED him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


Also a synonym for received is accepted. The Strong's concordance also has accept as a meaning. We need to quit quibbling over accept and receive. Not all receive/accept the truth about the salvation found ONLY in Jesus Christ. Just as above with the glass of water used by the dictionary.as an example.

If your dying of thirst and a glass of water is placed before you, the water will do you absolutely no good until you decide to receive it into your body.

The same is true for Christ. Each of us is dying because of sins we have commtted. Jesus died for our sin, but the salvation he has secured must be accpted/received/ have faith in that fact or it will do absolutely no good for removing sin.

God will not override our free will and force salvation on us. If we reject Christ that choice will decide our eternal destiny.

Point taken. Still, accepting something or someone is not equivalent to believing in him/it unconditionally.

Originally posted by happness
Point taken. Still, accepting something or someone is not equivalent to believing in him/it unconditionally.

The reason I get stirred up about this point is because it's very, very dangerous. If it doesn't matter if a person places their faith in /receives/accepts the completed work of Christ, because everybody is going to make it to eternity with God, then nothing matters. Why, bother to take note of the sins a person committs,(and I am in no way saying we earn heaven and eternal life) and change how we view sin. I mean after all look at what Hitler(and Hitler is part of everybody) did, and if he can do that and make it to heaven and eternity with God, then I'm certainly going to make it with the few minor sins I've done. Shoot, even the anti-Christ will be there. So I can pretty much sin and get away with it right up until the moment I die, because I'm going to heaven anyway.

Now I certainly don't believe that the Bible teaches that. So that is dangerous because, a person will die in their sins if they believe this, and the moment after they die they will realize that it's too late to come to Christ and they will spend eternity seperated from God in yes, hell. That will be in a place of torment as described in the Bible. That torment could be different things, and that can be debated somewhere else, but it is torment that is eternal and everlasting.




[edit on 8-5-2006 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by dbrandt If it doesn't matter if a person places their faith in /receives/accepts the completed work of Christ, because everybody is going to make it to eternity with God, then nothing matters. Why, bother to take note of the sins a person committs,(and I am in no way saying we earn heaven and eternal life) and change how we view sin. I mean after all look at what Hitler(and Hitler is part of everybody) did, and if he can do that and make it to heaven and eternity with God, then I'm certainly going to make it with the few minor sins I've done. Shoot, even the anti-Christ will be there. So I can pretty much sin and get away with it right up until the moment I die, because I'm going to heaven anyway.....[edit on 8-5-2006 by dbrandt]

You are right in your statements and it certainly does matter Who we believe in and what we view and understand as sin.

However, my point was that the Bible doesn't say we must ACCEPT Jesus, as if He were a subject up for discussion, but BELIEVE IN(TO) Him, as One Who is and was and is to come.

It is my view that as Christians we use old worn out phrases which have little or no meaning to the non-Christian and so project things that are not at all to the point.

For instance, "Have you accepted Christ as your personal Savior"? How arrogant can that sound? My person needs salvation but it is the Savior of the world I must believe in, or else I have a friendly little "alien" that wants to save me, just little ol' me.

We have far too many primadonna Christians already and don't need to make of proselytes even more.

These are my views and you are certainly free to disagree.

God is great and greatly to be praised. Man is man and will always NEED God, though God has no actual need of any single human. Yet He loves us, His creation, and to paraphrase what David wrote "What are we that He is mindful of us?"

Excellent valid points, happness!

Originally posted by happness
as if He were a subject up for discussion, but BELIEVE IN(TO) Him, as One Who is and was and is to come.

For instance, "Have you accepted Christ as your personal Savior"? How arrogant can that sound? My person needs salvation but it is the Savior of the world I must believe in, or else I have a friendly little "alien" that wants to save me, just little ol' me.

I am missing the point on what you have written here. Could you rephrase it?