IRAN & SYRIA Next: Terror for Oil & Israel

Arabs and Jews lived side by side until Israel was given statehood. This is a political problem, not the blood feud some you claim it to be, and it can only have a political solution. Israel's defense would be better served by the pen. This is in the best interest of that whole region. To support anything else is to support the continuation of the conflict. The right to defend yourself is not exclusive to reactionary violence. The best self-defense for Israel is a thriving democratic Palestine. Peace should be the goal and it's obvious it won't be attained by killing innocent people.

Originally posted by Saphronia
Arabs and Jews lived side by side until Israel was given statehood. This is a political problem, not the blood feud some you claim it to be, and it can only have a political solution. Israel's defense would be better served by the pen. This is in the best interest of that whole region. To support anything else is to support the continuation of the conflict. The right to defend yourself is not exclusive to reactionary violence. The best self-defense for Israel is a thriving democratic Palestine. Peace should be the goal and it's obvious it won't be attained by killing innocent people.

jews and arabs live in peace cause the jews didnt fight for freedom. arabs ruled jews until jews got a country and then they united and stood for their country.

History lesson please. Even in the times of Muhammad the jews lived peacefully with muslims. There were Jews living in Palestine that were pushed out right along side of the Palestinians when the state of Israel was created and the European Jews started to pour in.

But, none of this is even relevant anymore. The Palestinians can't be assimilated into Israel and they can't be physically removed from the land--that's text book genocide--the fighting and killing is pointless because Israel is fighting an enemy that grows with each air strike. It's illegal to kill them all, and the violence is the oposite of a deterent.

Israel has no other choice and the longer they prolong the inevitable the dumber they seem. No one is gaining any ground--not the terrorist and certainly not israel. If you really wanted peace you would support a Palestinian state anyone with any sense knows this is the only solution. Hell, Bush has no sense and he even knows it's the only solution.

As ever Saphronia talks alot of sense.

There are no alternatives for any with a brain.

The trouble as ever is Jerusalem.

Another problem is that stinkin Wall, too.

www.khilafah.com...

"12,000 need permits to live in their own homes: Israel serves notice to Palestinians

uploaded 29 Oct 2003


By Chris McGreal

AL QUDS: The Israeli military has ordered thousands of Palestinians living near the steel and concrete "security fence" throughout the West Bank to obtain special permits to live in their own homes.

Palestinian officials said the order breached a pledge by Israel to the UN security council a fortnight ago that the barrier would not change the legal status of those who live near it, and claimed it was another step toward the annexation of tens of thousands of hectares of Palestinian land.

The order, signed by the Israeli army's commander in the West Bank, Major General Moshe Kaplinski, said Palestinian land between the fence and the 1967 border, known as the green line, was to be a "closed military zone".

Any Palestinian who lived in the area would be defined by a new category of "long-term resident" and everyone over the age of 12 would be required to obtain a permit to live in their own homes and travel beyond their villages.

The order said that only Israelis and Jews could enter the designated areas without a pass. Michael Tarazi, a legal adviser to the Palestinian leadership said: "It is just the latest step in Zionism's long-standing strategy of taking Palestinian land while ridding that land of the Palestinian population."

Welcome to Nazi Germany.


jakomo

Its a damn shame that the "wall" cannot be a Berlin Wall or the Great Wall or maybe even the freakin' Maginot Line!!!

"Welcome to Nazi Germany"......give me a break......


regards
seekerof

Seekerof: How does Israel intend to pay for this wall...seeing as how it was reported in the Jerusalem Post that they were having trouble finding the funds...while their looking for these funds...it was also reported that over 1.3 million Israeli's are living below the poverty line.

I have a problem with my tax dollars being abused by my damn government, but it really pisses me off when others are allowed to misuse my ends. They need to stop building the wall and wasting their money on a war they will never win. Their enemy is so under matched that its a waste to even drop a bomb. The PA needs to get the job done by cracking down on the terrorist, no doubt, but it's hard to convince folk when they have million dollar bombs falling on their head.

It was also reported today that Sharon is talking to the PA, maybe these investigations of corruption have him starting to come to his senses.

As a tax-payer myself......I don't have a problem with the wall.....its all a matter of opinion, isn't it?
What you or anyone else sees the "wall" as does not, in no way, mean that I or anyone will see the same way.

Here's some questions for you:
Palestinian wants peace with Israel?
Israel wants peace with Palestine?
If and when Palestine becomes an Arab state, will the violence stop or continue...wall or no wall?
In all my searching around the internet and some libraries.......I have yet to see where Israel is mandating or decreeing the destruction of any Arab nation, to include the Palestinians....is this true?
If so....why is Hamas.....the militant arm of the PLO/PA/Arafat STILL mandating the total unconditional destruction of Israel and Jews???!

Might want to read this:
"HAMAS charter"
Link:
www.mideastweb.org...

Excerpt:
"The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

Seems a certain Pharoah issued a similar decree....to what avail?
BTW: you are aware that the PLO/PA charter states the very same thing????!
You see, my point and has always been my point, is that whether it is the Palestinian issue or Syrian or Eygptian, etc......it doe NOT matter. Why? Cause Islam mandates and dictates the destruction of Jews and the nation of Israel. I hear and read folks here talk of how Jews and Arabs co-existed peaceful prior and to now. Explain why Mohommed butchered and slaughtered Jews when they rejected! him as the "one true prophet"...example..Medina in 622.

How about explain this too:
"When a 'Terrorist' Is a 'Militant' and Why"
Link:
foi.missouri.edu...


So, let me see.......
According to you (?) and to some others here...those people who blow up innocent civilians are regarded as terrorists and barbarians, EXCEPT where and when they target and murder innocent Jews. But in that case, they are "activists," "militants," people with legitimate grievances, people whose demands must be met and with whom a deal must be struck?
You see, I have been claiming and saying all along that media is "biased".....just as recorded history is "biased."
In such, much of the world's media, especially the BBC and CNN, evidently have biased ironclad policies where Arabs who commit mass murder against Jews must never be described as "terrorists". Instead, they are called "activists," as if they are raising money for dolphins, or called "militants," like people marching in gay/lesbian pride parades or, as the case in Iran, people marching for freedom and governmental changes...... moreover, when a suicide bomber murders 10 Jews, for example, many reporters and much of the media report that "eleven people died in the incident," adding the killer/suicide bomber to the body count, just to let TV viewers know how "justified" the attack was....and this I presume you (?) and others here agree with and also consider justifiable?

Try looking up the political meaning and definition of "terrorist" and "terrorism."

Here, try this site too.............:
"Tracking The Threat"
Link:
www.trackingthethreat.com...

You (?) guys keep defending "terrorism" and continue calling it "justified killing" for whatever the reasons....be it Palestinian this or Arab that....makes no difference....its all one in the same.
Israel will do what Israel must to maintain its sovereignty and secure its populance.....no matter what the world thinks, says, rules, etc.
The "root cause" of this problem stems from more than a "wall".....
Though I can agree, somewhat, with what you say....I find that "Israel" remains an issue to many.....


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 30-10-2003 by Seekerof]

Thank you for that Seekerof--It would have been real interesting if I hadn't heard it all before. IMO, a movement is only a movement when people support it in large numbers. Without any alternative--no hope for any type of economic future in sight because of the constant destruction of property and businesses in the Palestinian controlled areas the so called Jihad doesn't need webpages and commercials. Israel does all the advertising they will ever need.

Now I would like you to take some time to read something about OUR tax dollars.

First, since 1982, U.S. aid to Israel has been transferred in one lump sum at the beginning of each fiscal year, which immediately begins to collect interest in U.S. banks. Aid that goes to other countries is disbursed throughout the year in quarterly installments.

Second, Israel is not required to account for specific purchases. Most countries receive aid for very specific purposes and must account for how it is spent. Israel is allowed to place US aid into its general fund, effectively eliminating any distinctions between types of aid.

Therefore, U.S. tax-payers are helping to fund an illegal occupation, the expansion of colonial-settlement projects, and gross human rights violations against the Palestinian civilian population.

A third difference is the sheer amount of aid the U.S. gives to Israel, unparalleled in the history of U.S. foreign policy. Israel usually receives roughly one third of the entire foreign aid budget, despite the fact that Israel comprises less than .001 of the world�s population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. In other words, Israel, a country of approximately 6 million people, is currently receiving more U.S. aid than all of Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean combined when you take out Egypt and Colombia.

This year, the U.S. Congress approved $2.76 billion in its annual aid package for Israel. The total amount of direct U.S. aid to Israel has been constant, at around $3 billion (usually 60% military and 40% economic) per year for the last quarter century. A new plan was recently implemented to phase out all economic aid and provide corresponding increases in military aid by 2008. This year Israel is receiving $2.04 billion in military aid and $720 million in economic aid there is only military aid.

In addition to nearly $3 billion in direct aid, Israel usually gets another $3 billion or so in indirect aid: military support from the defense budget, forgiven loans, and special grants. While some of the indirect aid is difficult to measure precisely, it is safe to say that Israel�s total aid
(direct and indirect) amounts to at least five billion dollars annually.

On top of all of this aid, a team from Israel�s finance ministry is slated to meet with U.S. government officials this month about an additional $800 million aid package which the Clinton administration promised Israel (and the Bush administration later froze) as compensation for the costs of its withdrawal from Lebanon. The U.S. also managed to find another $28 million in the 2001 Pentagon budget to give Israel to purchase "counter terrorism equipment."

link

...and we can't even fund our own homeland security projects. american tax dollars for americans, cousin, this is so close to treason that I can't take it anymore I have to leave this thread immediately before I say things about my government that will have me on the FBI terrorist watch list...please read the whole article.

Saphronia,
In your continued insistance that "we" need to withdrawal "our" US tax dollars from Israel, one absolute question comes to mind: why?
1.9 Billion, I believe, was withdrawn this year.

Then you ask me to "read" more on this reasoning and "justification" as to amounts.....
Questions....
Did you read the PLO/PA/Hamas Charter?
Have you researched Isreal's budget numbers and found 'exactly' how much "our" US tax dollars are going to the "wall" or to remote controlled Catepillar tractors and the such?
Why did you not even answer any of the questions I asked you?

But.......you asked and out of respect....I read it.
Informative article.....

It seems apparent to me and to others that this ("our" US tax dollars) is a matter of US Foreign Policy.
This same foreign policy equates to foreign aid packages. You know this right? Anyhow, in your continued drum beating to "end" Israel US aid and funding.......why are you not beating the very same drum wanting "our" US tax dollars to be withdrawn from all or many nations at the same time? Why just Israel? Note: It is also aparent that with or without "our" US foreign aid, Israel would be doing as she is today....defending her national sovereignty and sustaining national security.

This might help, as your advocating the removal of US funding from Israel:
"U.S. Foreign Aid...."
Link:
new.heritage.org...

Roughly 130+ nations receive "our" US tax dollars but Israel is "prime suspect" for having foreign aid removed....I see....

You then give your 'IMO' and say:
"a movement is only a movement when people support it in large numbers. Without any alternative--no hope for any type of economic future in sight because of the constant destruction of property and businesses in the Palestinian controlled areas the so called Jihad doesn't need webpages and commercials. Israel does all the advertising they will ever need."

Hmmm, I see. Well, according to political governments world-wide.....such a movement, as with Palestine, is all well and good till it incorporates "terrorism."

Terrorism, whether undertaken by states, political organizations, groups, movements, or individuals, is one of the most insidious and deadly acts to "further a movements cause"....wouldn't you say?
Such "causes", like the one that forced the United States to leave Lebenon was caused by "movement" which used suicidal terrorists.....
Like Israel's determination in protecting and securing its national sovereignty and its nation's populance, Israel has and continues to recieve UN resolutions mandating and condemning such and such.....what many here fail to see and understand, along with the UN....... is that "Terrorism" or "terrorists/militants/organizations/groups/movements/individuals are NOT deterred by UN resolutions or expressions of outrage by world leaders and legislatures.....in such, why should Israel be deterred by the very same, when she is doing what she feels is her right to protect herself against such acts?
Terrorism can only be deterred when ALL nations and organizations and individuals understand and realize that by using "terror", terrorists will spark the wrath of ALL nations that do not agree, believe, support, appease, or want it to continue or exist in a world cursed with a small minority who have continued to resort to violence/terrorism in pursuit of their objectives.

To mention that we "can't even support" "our" own needs and such is moot. Why? Foreign Policy and the purpose behind that foreign policy.


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 31-10-2003 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Russian

Originally posted by Saphronia
Arabs and Jews lived side by side until Israel was given statehood. This is a political problem, not the blood feud some you claim it to be, and it can only have a political solution. Israel's defense would be better served by the pen. This is in the best interest of that whole region. To support anything else is to support the continuation of the conflict. The right to defend yourself is not exclusive to reactionary violence. The best self-defense for Israel is a thriving democratic Palestine. Peace should be the goal and it's obvious it won't be attained by killing innocent people.

jews and arabs live in peace cause the jews didnt fight for freedom. arabs ruled jews until jews got a country and then they united and stood for their country.

now im sure you're jewish(and to think you call urself russian sheeh!!)....too biased to reason with.
however, im not stooping to your level
i would like to argue the term collateral damage, you're comparing the number of israelis dead with the palestinian casualites??????
rubber bullets and tear gas....you my friend are hitler's opposer, too sick to understand the actual facts behind the lines...you're willingto use aresenal against people throwing rocks and rubble?
u make me sick.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



I find your comment about fighting for the "wrong people" to be disgusting. I feel the same way about the US govornment supporting the Nazi wannabe Israelis. Of course the Palestinians want to recruit people for thier cause and to protest. Obviously, when palestinans try and protest the Israelis, they get kileled, the world doesnt care. When westerners get killed, more eyebrows are gonna get raised.

OK, on to Zionism. There already were Jews in israel before the Zionists got there. Now, for thousands of Years, those Jews had NO problems with the Arabs. They all lived in the same area with no fighting. Thus, they were doing quite well.........the Arabs and Jews tolerating each others presence.......

And suddenly, the Zionists come around. Hmmmmmm....shyte hits the fan, violence starts up................ OH MY! Thousands of Years of Jewish and Arab co existance without violnce suddenly out the window.

Its because Zionists are fanatic, dogmatic, and do not care who gets in thier way. They will use entire nations (like the US) to further thier cause, they do not care what the body count is.

And before you go on about the UN, remeber Israel is in violation of hundreds of UN sanctions against it. Yet we invaded Iraq for Violating a handful. Hmmmmm.....

The Palestinians have terror as thier only weapon. They have no army. When are you people gonna wake the frock up and see this? Of course they resort to terror bombings! What other weapon do they have? Rocks? Sticks? Mud? Israel has a super pwoerful technicologically advanced army, Palestinians have some goat herders and pissed off young people who pick up a copy of the anarchists cook book.

Ill put it to you this way. Lets say China decided America is a good place for a new chinese homeland. They come stomping on our shores, take over, ect. Then they take Americans and push us out of the country, round us up, send us to camps in canada and Mexico. We have no army left, were just a bunch of rednecks and hillbillies. Our conditions are deplorable. We are denied freedom of movement. We have no country of our own. The rest of the world doesnt give a shyte, they think were a bunch of stupid #ers, and the Chinese have every right to be there as they see fit.

The Chinese roll periodically into our camps to burn down houses and schools with our women and kids. They shoot at us for throwing rocks at thier tanks. Because were a;l terrorists. because a few poor and desperate and angry Americans decide that they will fight back via bombs and explosives. What would you do?

I for one, would be making regular trips into Chinese occupied Seattle and making sure that If I cant sleep and live in peace, niether will they. I would do exactly what the Palestinians are doing. Why? Because I have no nation, I have no army to join, no guerilla group. I do not have the technology to defeat thier technilogical superiority. So, I shall use simple and brutal methods.

I shall bring to them the terror and pain they have brought to me.

And for your information, while you may see the Palestinians as terrorists, I see me as freedom fighters. Theres your dilema. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist. Its all in perspective. If the Palestinians had anythign even closely capable of battling Israel, it might be alot fairer. But since they have NOTHING.....

They use what they have. Until Israel changes its wicked ways and pulls its head out of its Nazi buttcrack....they deserve no peace or security.
Skadi_the_evil_elf
----------------------------------------------------------------------

i pride myself in knowing this liberal....(skadi i mean)
ok enough of that.

hopefully her extract may switch you from your evil ways....but im sure you'll find some arguments

Define "evil ways" Cyrus.
Are you claiming that you and others have the truth in your back pockets on this issue....that you all know every fact and case.....that others opinion are "evil" when only applied to being contrary to yours and others?

I guess I fall into that "group" of "evil wrong doers" too.....

So be it.


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 31-10-2003 by Seekerof]

Seekerof:

First, I did read the charter and like I said I've heard all of that before. I made no excuse for any terrorist, so I think you misunderstand my position on this matter. I'm not one of those that believes Israel is controlling my government or that Israel is evil. I do believe they share part of the responibility because it takes more than one side to make a conflict. I do believe they shoulder most of the burden when it comes to making peace because they are a recognized nation-state and Palestine is not, and they have the power and voice to end the conflict by supporting a policy of peace that includes a democratic Palestinian state.

Also, I never said we should withdraw all support from Israel or any other country for that matter. My problem is with the lack of control we have over our dollars, the lack of oversight, and the misuse. All these problems are exclusive to the aid we give to Israel. This policy of--no questions asked take my money and do you--is irresponible, and that's what pisses me off about the aid we give them. I thought I made that plain, and if I didn't the article did.

While, I'm a firm believer that home comes first, I also know we live in a global society, and aid is important not only to the countries we help but our own economy. With Israel we are writing a 3 billion dollar check every year, and recieveing no return on our investment. They continue this fruitless war to the detriment of their own people--funded in part by mine. If they wanna reap the benefits of our tax dollars they should be held accountable when they are squandered and misused, and under the current arrangement we have with them there is no way to do that. And if that wasn't enough, it has become obvious that even their own officals are starting to recongize that they are part of the problem.

It does no one any good to try to place blame on any one side. With that said it's also idiotic for anyone to believe that terrorist aren't created. The leaders of these terrorist organizations play on the grief of the family members killed by Israeli bombs. It's the see--we were right-- manipulation. There has to a starting place...there has to be someone that says no more. Someone has to take responibility.

Two articles....

Top Israel Says Tactics Are Backfiring

JERUSALEM, Oct. 30 -- Israel's senior military commander told columnists for three leading newspapers this week that Israel's military tactics against the Palestinian population were too repressive and were fomenting explosive levels of "hatred and terrorism" that might become impossible to control.

link

Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Female Suicide Bombers

Understanding the motivation of the female suicide bomber is much more difficult. Past experience shows that there is generally no single overriding motivation for her action, but rather a number of motivations working in concert. These motivations interact with the potential attacker�s emotional predispositions, creating an explosive mixture that needs only some traumatic event to release all its hidden destructive energy. A skillful terrorist operative can easily identify a candidate in this emotional state, and coolly manipulate her into becoming a weapon for his organization.

link



[Edited on 1-11-2003 by Saphronia]

Isnt Syria already happening/happened?

Looks like IRAN is all thats left to terrorize in that region.

Where next?

reply to post by tropic


Pretty good thread since it is just under 10 years old.

We all know Iran is a target. But they play political chess far too well and have delayed TPTB's plans more than once.

They need a FF to gain public support for it now, but too many people are awakened to that tactic so it's going to be hard. The FF they use needs to be flawless.

reply to post by NuclearPaul


Iran may play chess but they are hardly winning such a game.

The Iranian Population is over 70% under the age of 30 years old and is very sick of the current Religious Government that controls every aspect of their lives.

There is not a peron here that would want to live there or to have such constraints placed upon them.

The facts are that this regime has painted itself into a wall and if it were to push too hard...it quite possibly could be the end of such regime.

I find it endlessly amusing that some here try to make Iran look like a victim...especially when these same people would scream bloody murder if they were treated as the average Iranian Citizen is.

Split Infinity